Why do swordsmen units have piercing damage in TATW?

[Dunadd]

I've noticed alot of the swordsmen units have piercing damage rather than slashing. Why is this? Isn't a sword primarily a slashing weapon? Is there some reason to do with the effects of slashing in MIITW? e.g bonuses/penalties against certain armour types?

[DrDragun]

The game only has normal attacks with a few special modifiers. Piercing is just a modifier to a normal attack which ignores half of the armor value of the target. And in this game axe men have it, not swordsmen (are there exceptions? Halberds and Longspears also have but but I don't know of any swordsmen).

Anyway there are certain attack properties attached to weapon type (such as cavalry bonus damage from spears, or more damage from being uphill/downhill) and attack animation speed, but in general there is only 1 type of damage: normal damage and it is not broken into types like RPG damage mechanics.

[Dunadd]

You're confusing it with armour piercing (ap) which is a different stat in a different category on a different line - it goes in primary attribute line (stat_pri_attr)

I'm talking about the stat_pri line which has the attack and charge rating and includes weapon damage type (piercing, slashing or blunt) e.g

type Axemen
dictionary Axemen ; Dale Axemen
category infantry
class light
voice_type Heavy
banner faction main_infantry
banner holy crusade
soldier axemen, 60, 0, 0.95
officer dale_captain_early_flag
officer dale_captain_early_flag
mount_effect elephant -4
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_withdraw, free_upkeep_unit, no_custom
formation 1.2, 1.2, 2.4, 2.4, 4, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 6, 3, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, slashing, axe, 60, 1
stat_pri_attr ap
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 0, 1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 3, 6, 5, leather ; gambeson + helmet
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 6
stat_ground 1, -1, 3, 1
stat_mental 11, disciplined, trained
stat_charge_dist 6
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 360, 140, 75, 75, 360, 4, 100
armour_ug_levels 1,2
armour_ug_models axemen
ownership scotland
era 0 scotland
era 1 scotland
era 2 scotland
recruit_priority_offset 0

[Gallus]

The game only has normal attacks with a few special modifiers. Piercing is just a modifier to a normal attack which ignores half of the armor value of the target. And in this game axe men have it, not swordsmen (are there exceptions? Halberds and Longspears also have but but I don't know of any swordsmen).

Anyway there are certain attack properties attached to weapon type (such as cavalry bonus damage from spears, or more damage from being uphill/downhill) and attack animation speed, but in general there is only 1 type of damage: normal damage and it is not broken into types like RPG damage mechanics.

two handers have ap I believe.

[Dunadd]

ap isn't what i'm asking about though. That's "armour piercing" which is different from 'slashing' or 'piercing' or 'blunt' damage type

I'm asking why swordsmen have their damage type classed as piercing not slashing, when (long) swords were basically slashing weapons (though they could be used for piercing too)

Also what effects the damage types (slashing, piercing, blunt) have ?

[k/t]

"two handers have ap I believe."

If they're axes.

This is what the EDU says about that: ; Damage type = piercing, blunt, slashing or fire. (I don't think this is used anymore)

I don't know if it actually does anything, but every mod I've seen puts "blunt" for maces and "slashing" for axes and "piercing" for swords (although RC says to use "slashing" for curved swords). You can change the "damage type" for a weapon and the game still works, so maybe it doesn't do anything. Someone should take a close look at the animations during a battle, then change the damage type and look closely again.

Straight swords are cutting weapons, not so much slashing. Curved swords are more for slashing.

[Dunadd]

changing it and the game still working doesn't show it doesn't do anything - it could as easily show it works properly

Because if you put in stat_pri_ex ratings, which definitely don't work, for even one unit on the edu, it makes the game crash during startup

Straight swords are cutting weapons, not so much slashing. Curved swords are more for slashing.

That's not correct - straight long swords were used primarily for slashing, though they could also be used for stabbing with the point.

And what is the difference between "cutting" and "slashing"? None When using a sword cutting is slashing

There have never been damage types in M2 and special weapon properties are assigned via other means like the aforementioned "ap".

I copied and pasted in a working unit in a working edu above in which slashing is in as the damage type on one line and ap in another.

They are not the same thing, they are two different things

And if they made no difference, every modder wouldn't put them in for every unit type and there wouldn't be a 'slashing', 'piercing' or 'blunt' included in every single stat_pri line for every single unit, including in the original game never mind mods

[Jean=A=Luc]

I've noticed alot of the swordsmen units have piercing damage rather than slashing. Why is this? Isn't a sword primarily a slashing weapon? Is there some reason to do with the effects of slashing in MIITW? e.g bonuses/penalties against certain armour types?

It's the damage type stat but I'm pretty sure it doesn't do anything. There have never been damage types in M2 and special weapon properties are assigned via other means like the aforementioned "ap".

[k/t]

Cutting means a straight downward movement, keeping the orientation of the sword compared to your arm the same. Slashing means the orientation of the sword in your hand changes, due to more wrist movement. I know someone who has been training with sabers for many years and there's a lot of slashing in saber fighting. With a katana, when chopping downward overhead, the hand that is closer to you pulls the handle towards you.

Straight swords were used primarily for cutting.

"changing it and the game still working doesn't show it doesn't do anything - it could as easily show it works properly"

Yes, that's why I told you to watch closely the battles.

You're way past the 25 post count at which you can edit your posts.

Maybe modders don't know that it doesn't matter, so they add it just in case. In any case, this question belongs in the Mod Workshop.

[Dunadd]

yeah that's possible

What needs editing in my posts? No idea why you keep bringing that up

[Ngugi]

Because you double posted, which is something that should be avoided.

The thread has been left as i presume since it is considered a TATW matter, however if also M2 swordsmen have piercing damage then it is a general modding matter and thus is not a thread for this part of TWC.

[Dunadd]

fixed that as best i can

[Mhaedros]

I'm quite sure the slashing, piercing etc are leftovers from Rome. I at least haven't actually noted any differences between slashing and piercing in-game.

[Dunadd]

prec ( charging after throwing a single volley of javelins) is from rome and it works in medieval, so not sure it necessarily means it won't work in med II

[Withwnar]

I have no idea what the difference is but "even the CA developers did it that way in vanilla" doesn't necessarily prove anything. I can think of one or two examples of things that they have done in their text files that they didn't need to.

[smoesville]

I have no idea what the difference is but "even the CA developers did it that way in vanilla" doesn't necessarily prove anything. I can think of one or two examples of things that they have done in their text files that they didn't need to.

Yeah, it could have been for a feature that was taken out due to bugs near the very end of the development cycle so it would have been pointless to remove references to it since they did nothing and would have just cost money and time.

[Andytheplatypus]

I've noticed alot of the swordsmen units have piercing damage rather than slashing. Why is this? Isn't a sword primarily a slashing weapon? Is there some reason to do with the effects of slashing in MIITW? e.g bonuses/penalties against certain armour types?

Pretty sure that Is for weapon noise while in battle. Why they used piercing is up to them.

[paradamed]

Pretty sure that Is for weapon noise while in battle. Why they used piercing is up to them.

I think the hitting sound is actually controlled by the defensive atribute (flash, metal, etc), not this.

[DrDragun]

I vaguely remember from one of the detailed Q&A sessions from some forums where someone from CA was answering mechanics questions and he said that there are various special modifiers for each weapon. Different bonuses for being uphill or downhill, different penalties for being exhausted, etc. There are different grades of spear ("light_spear", "long_spear", "pike" etc) which all have hidden properties. Somewhat explains why pikemen look so bad in the attack stat, but can actually fight other infantry decently.