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  1. #1
    Himster's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Tribes of the North

    So, this seems like an opportune time to discuss the indepth and rich lore of the northmen and the upcoming changes (or enhancements) we might expect from the release of the warriors of chaos rulebook on Saturday and the implications these might have on future editions of CoW.

    The story so far:
    I'll briefly summarise my understanding of their history, I'll limit my ramblings to just the Norscans and the Kurgan as these are the only ones that apply to the mod (and warhammer lore generally), please feel free to add and correct what I say.

    On to the little understood Norse: Originally called the Norsii, a fair-skinned people adapted for the cold, they originally peacefully occupied the middle and north of what is now the empire until the warlike Teutogen raiders pushed the Norsii, taking their land, women, and deities (specifically Olric/Ulric), until they fled to Kislev. The few remaining Norsii living on the coast didn't get on well with Sigmar because he sided with their enemies. Eventually they settled in what is now Kislev (and beyond) and ruled over the Ropemenn in western Kislev (and still kind of do so) until the Ungol tribes from the eastern Steppes drove them further North after many great battles. Bitter and spent at this point the Norsii sought the assistance of the less savory deities of their pantheon: the chaos gods. The Norscans of the northerly reaches have been there for the longest and are therefore the most touched and can thrive in the less hospitable northern reaches of Norsca, they have fewer settlements, but more fortresses and are more populace and also more fractious. There are four north-Norscan tribes, the Vargs (horsemen and nomads), Aeslings (the most corrupted, brutal and often allied to the Kurgan), Graelings (the best sailors and pirates) and Baersonglings (the best berserkers and were-bears/wolves). The southern Norscan tribes are the Bjornlings (the most civilised and the usually produces the high-kings), the Skaelings (the best traders and pretty good sailors) and the Sarls (the best mercenaries and fortresses). The southern tribes are also more likely to trade with Norse-Dwarfs and Kislev and the Empire. There are two ways for a Norscan to become a chaos warrior: the first is by great deeds and attracting the attention of a daemon or even the gods themselves, like Wulfrik or Haargroth, that daemon then gifts the warrior with chaos armour: chaos armour can't be made by mere men. The second is to go on a pilgrimage to the wastes or even the realm of chaos itself, like Valkia or Melekh. There are many chaos warriors in Norsca, but they are few when compared to the Kurgan.

    The most recent developments in Norsca (leading up to the SoC) is a new High-King: Gustav "The Holy Warrior" Swer after vctories in a holy crusade against Aesling invaders in the Bjornling lands, the two fellow southern kings swear alleigance, the union is called Midgard. After this the Aesling king launches a massive invadasion of the Sarls but are thwarted by Wulfrik the wanderer who is rewarded by an engagement to the Sarl's Princess, but by his hubris he is punished by the gods and is forced to kill the woman he loves and the king leaving the Sarls in a devastated state. In the Baersongling land a new king comes to power: Beorg the bearstruck of Urslo. The Vargs have a new king: Strykaar, champion of Slaanesh. A minor Aesling tribe ravages the land in a civil war between Melekh the changer ( commanding his daemon army) and his son Cyspeth enthralled to the local Shaman. The Graelings produce a great champion of Khorne called Haargroth the bloodied. A small southern Baersonling (The Wolf Brothers) tribe adopts a man from the empire blessed by Nurgle and change their name to the Decayed ones. The Prophet Vaino warns of the coming storm of chaos.

    On to the Kurgan:
    The inspiration of the Kurgan comes from two obscure places, one is the historical people in the real world also called the Kurgan, they were nomads too, similar to the huns, famous for their rich grave-good culture found in the Pontic-Caspian steppe (and beyond). The other source is that tragically terrible movie: Highlander, the antagonistic, called Kurgan, whose aesthetic tastes are very very comfortable in a Warhammer setting. So in Warhammer the Kurgan are a steppe people, horse-bound and nomadic with a penchant for cruelty, skull decorations and the occasional massive fortress built by hordes of daemon and human slaves. It's occasionally suggested that the Kurgan were the first humans to develop metalurgy (by contact with their gods), much to the concern of the dwarfs and the Elf ambassador at the time: Malekith (the future witch-king). The Kurgan are comparatively mysterious as their Norse cousins are a talkative bunch when mead is involved (which is most of the time). The Kurgan do trade from time to time (particularly the Dolgans), but are a more terse people. Their appearance is also darker, swarthy even. They have a higher percentage of their people touched by the gods and more people are called for a pilgrimage to the North. The Kul tribe is the most southerly and so has the most contact with everyone else, like a crossroad country, because of this the Kul have a long and proud history of producing great warlords that devestate the southlands, like Asavar Kul and Crom and other I can't think of right now.

    The big recent events are mostly obvious: Archaon has spent over a century gathering the treasures from around the North and beyond, the eternal battling of tribes endures, Be'lakor plans his escape from infinite insanity. Other (more important) things happened, like the ascension of the first high-king of the Kurgan in generations: Crom the conqueror, King of the Kul, Herald of Archaon, High-king of the Kurgan peoples, lots of titles I know. Crom is a pretty big deal, even before he met Archaon. Obviously not all Kurgan tribes obey Crom, but Crom is still the first among equals, Archaon is like a spiritual leader like the pope (in a total different ball-game), Crom is the political muscle by virtue of his duelist ability works like the holy Roman Emperor, if the pope was like a super bad-ass.

    So what changes do we see coming, if any? (I just mean the lore, not the rules, but we can talk about the rules too, that'd just take a long time and a lot of disagreeing).
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Tribes of the North

    Good to know, I like the idea of some of the Norsii worshipping Ulric and not the chaos gods.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Tribes of the North

    Norse and Norsca do not mean Chaos; heck; Norsca isn't even part of the Chaos Wastes - yet, due to its close proximity to the Chaos Wastes and the tendency of many Norse tribesmen to join the Chaos warbands as raiders many people think otherwise. Norse have their own traditional beliefs and culture. I think that any updated version of CoW that would have Norsca and its people playing a larger role should emphasize these things.

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    Himster's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Tribes of the North

    Quote Originally Posted by vonVince View Post
    Norse and Norsca do not mean Chaos; heck; Norsca isn't even part of the Chaos Wastes - yet, due to its close proximity to the Chaos Wastes and the tendency of many Norse tribesmen to join the Chaos warbands as raiders many people think otherwise. Norse have their own traditional beliefs and culture.
    The same could be said of the Kurgan peoples, the Dolgans specifically. Like the Norse they recognize the power and authority of the chaos gods, but don't solely worship them, the chaos gods are only a part of the pantheons of the North.

    The Northern peoples are complex, originally they were all that existed in warhammer

    I think that any updated version of CoW that would have Norsca and its people playing a larger role should emphasize these things.
    It has been officially mentioned today that playing as the Norscan faction you're taking the role of the high-king Gustav "holy-warrior" Swer king of the Bjornlings with two vassal kings and you will have to make a choice during the campaign whether to side with Archaon and invade the south, or resist and have to deal with your northern brothers and cousins in an almost winnable war. I can think of only a few things more epic than these plans for the Norscan faction.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

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    IrishBlood's Avatar GIVE THEM BLIZZARDS!
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    Default Re: Tribes of the North

    According to the Legend of Sigmar book that I read recently, the Norseii were pretty damn evil. They didnt all worship the chaos gods, but their warlords did, and they constantly raided the lands of the other human kingdoms in the present day empire.

    In fact Sigmars father was killed while defeating a massive Norseii incursion. The roppesmen were forced to fight for the Norseii after Sigmar kicked them out of the empire. the Norseii came back with a vengance and kidnapped the roppesmens women and children, forcing them to fight for them.

    So while not ALL Norseii are evil, and are generally missunderstood,....their still dicks

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    Default Re: Tribes of the North

    Quote Originally Posted by IrishBlood View Post
    .their still dicks
    That applies to pretty much everybody in WH

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    Default Re: Tribes of the North

    Quote Originally Posted by Kahvipannu View Post
    That applies to pretty much everybody in WH
    very true, but their more dickish than most! which is saying something

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    Default Re: Tribes of the North

    Quote Originally Posted by IrishBlood View Post
    According to the Legend of Sigmar book that I read recently, the Norseii were pretty damn evil. They didnt all worship the chaos gods, but their warlords did, and they constantly raided the lands of the other human kingdoms in the present day empire.
    Oh yeah, I left an important part out. Long before the coming of Sigmar, even before Orcs made it to middenland the Norsii had no weapons to speak of, they were made strong by rowing their fising boats and plowing their fields with stones and they were accomplished hunters and worshipped a broad pantheon with Olric at it's head (a less violent version of Ulric), they also worship a precursor of Taal. This changed when the Teutogens were driven north by an Orc invasion (500 years before Sigmar). With them they brought iron weapons, in their desperation the Norsii offered prayers to any and all gods, luckily/unluckily some gods were listening and saved the Norsii from certain destruction, driven mad by the horrors unleashed by the Teutogens and even more mad by what their survival cost it's understandable that the Norse turned into dicks. The Teutogens were the real villains, but villainy breeds villainy. Sometimes you become a monster by fighting monsters.

    In fact Sigmars father was killed while defeating a massive Norseii incursion. The roppesmen were forced to fight for the Norseii after Sigmar kicked them out of the empire. the Norseii came back with a vengance and kidnapped the roppesmens women and children, forcing them to fight for them.

    So while not ALL Norseii are evil, and are generally missunderstood,....their still dicks
    Yup, even today Erengrad is ruled by Norscan princes and the peasants are mostly Gospodar and most of the warriors are Ungols with Norscan officers.
    Last edited by Himster; February 01, 2013 at 10:13 AM.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
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    IrishBlood's Avatar GIVE THEM BLIZZARDS!
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    Default Re: Tribes of the North

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    Oh yeah, I left an important part out. Long before the coming of Sigmar, even before Orcs made it to middenland the Norsii had no weapons to speak of, they were made strong by rowing their fising boats and plowing their fields with stones and they were accomplished hunters and worshipped a broad pantheon with Olric at it's head (a less violent version of Ulric), they also worship a precursor of Taal. This changed when the Teutogens were driven north by an Orc invasion (500 years before Sigmar). With them they brought iron weapons, in their desperation the Norsii offered prayers to any and all gods, luckily/unluckily some gods were listening and saved the Norsii from certain destruction, driven mad by the horrors unleashed by the Teutogens and even more mad by what their survival cost it's understandable that the Norse turned into dicks. The Teutogens were the real villains, but villainy breeds villainy. Sometimes you become a monster by fighting monsters.



    Yup, even today Erengrad is ruled by Norscan princes and the peasants are mostly Gospodar and most of the warriors are Ungols with Norscan officers.
    I do not know what your sources are, but from what I know that is NOT true. According to the Legend of Sigmar (published by the black library so its accepted as cannon lore) the Norseii were extremly violent and agressive. The teutogens crossed the worlds end mountains and eventually settled around the river riek, they never advanced north before the reign of Sigmar. They never had a reason to, the reik river is one of the best parts of the empire and they had a hell of a time trying to defend it againt greenskins and beastmen.

    The Norseii are not the innocent savages your trying to make them out to be.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Tribes of the North

    What kind unit for thèm? Some cavalery perhaps ?

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    Vice's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Tribes of the North

    Quote Originally Posted by tito View Post
    What kind unit for thèm? Some cavalery perhaps ?
    If I had to venture a guess...I am sure they will get (if not most) all the units the Empire can get that are Norse like...Such as Huscarls - Bondsmen - Shield Maidens - Whalers - Berserkers (I forget if there are any others...)The Whalers all ready get free upkeep...so they would have to pick Bondsmen or Shield Maidens as the other free upkeep...or perhaps new units of course.

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    Default Re: Tribes of the North

    Quote Originally Posted by tito View Post
    What kind unit for thèm? Some cavalery perhaps ?
    That's a tricky one. At the time of this mod the Norscan tribes are quite divided, the only area that is good for breeding horses is in the Varg lands, a place called the plains of Fimbul, the Vargs are also the most nomadic of the Norscan tribes, they put their excellent horses to good use. From what I understand the plan is for the Norscan faction is the High-king command the three southern tribes (Bjornlings, Skaelings and Sarls) none of whom have horse traditions to speak of. I'd like the possibility of Varg mercenaries. Another possibility would be Knights of the white wolf going on crusade and fighting for the high-king Gustav "Holy warrior" Swer who is himself a follower of Olric, for this to happen of course, the player would have to choose to reject the patronage of the chaos gods, which should cause some serious unrest in any Norscan province. I think it should be possible to hire a limited number of chaos troops when siding with the chaos gods, including Kurgan marauder cavalry and chaos knights.

    Quote Originally Posted by IrishBlood View Post
    I do not know what your sources are, but from what I know that is NOT true. According to the Legend of Sigmar (published by the black library so its accepted as cannon lore) the Norseii were extremly violent and agressive. The teutogens crossed the worlds end mountains and eventually settled around the river riek, they never advanced north before the reign of Sigmar. They never had a reason to, the reik river is one of the best parts of the empire and they had a hell of a time trying to defend it againt greenskins and beastmen.

    The Norseii are not the innocent savages your trying to make them out to be.
    I said before the time of Sigmar, I didn't disagree that at the time of Sigmar the Norsii were the bad-guys. I said before that they knew little about war until the Teutogens came. My sources include the second edition rule-book, fourth edition chaos rulebook, Warhammer fantasy role-play (published 1987), Tome of corruption and Kalevala which is a website compiling warhammer fantasy roleplaying lore.

    It might be a new thing that the Teotogens didn't invade the Norsii homeland and drive them insane, but that would suck, the old story was so much more epic and really shows the corrupting power chaos can have on a whole people.

    "The Norsii‘s peace was disturbed when other tribes boiled into the Reik Basin. The worst of these was the tribe called the Teutogens. They were warlike and murderous, and swept across the land like an axewielding tidal wave. The Norsii people were forced to take up arms and fight for their lives. All too quickly, they were pushed back from their lands and forced eastwards into conflict with other tribes, including the Udoses and the Ungols. Many minor conflicts ensued, but, eventually, an uneasy peace descended, and the Norsii settled again; although, this time with weapons ready."

    Ok, this is from Tome of Corruption, in the timeline this event is placed at 500 years before Sigmar. It looks like I got the original position of the Norsii tribes a bit wrong, it turns out they were in the Reik baisn originally. Problem solved, both stories work together. I think the old lore still stands.
    Last edited by Himster; February 02, 2013 at 09:40 AM.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

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    IrishBlood's Avatar GIVE THEM BLIZZARDS!
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    Default Re: Tribes of the North

    Ah ok that makes sense, sorry for the missunderstanding

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    Default Re: Tribes of the North

    Quote Originally Posted by IrishBlood View Post
    Ah ok that makes sense, sorry for the missunderstanding
    My fault. I typed even though I was unsure.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

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    Default Re: Tribes of the North

    Some unit possibilities I think would be nice: Ulfenwere (werewolves/bears), berserkers, ballista, norse dwarf mercenaries, bondsmen, huscarls, thralls/whalers, thralls/archers/hunters, shield-maidens, norse-ogres, Varg cavalry, shaman, Norse chaos reavers, warrior skalds (who work like the inspiring aztec priests in kingdoms), Warmammoths, all sorts of chaos warriors and frost-giants (Jotun). If even a third of those got included, I'd be happy.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

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