Hypaspists or Shield Bearers?

[KLAssurbanipal]

I wrote about this in other thread, but I assume about because of a discussion forum members. Each of you can see what is correct.

They are indeed Shield Bearers, we are using the english version of their name in the game.

The word 'Hypaspist' is the name of the English. Greek name is 'Hypaspistai'.

The English word "Hypaspist" is in the singular as 'a hypaspist', in the plural as 'hypaspists'.

I give an example the word 'Hoplite'. Greek form of the word is 'Hoplitai'. The English form is in the singular as 'a hoplite', in the plural as 'hoplites'.
Analogously to refer to 'hoplite'.

"shield bearer" is the only meaning of the word, not an English name. Universal, the English name is simply 'Hypaspist (a hypaspist ; hypaspits)'

Here is the proof in the form of the English name:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypaspists




I played RTW: Alexander yesterday...

RTW - Royal Pikeman
RTW: Alexander (DLC) - Hypaspist
RTW2 - Shield Bearers

Jack, why did you made the 3rd name of one unit?
People known hypaspists from RTW's expansion pack.


Three game of one series have three other names of one unit.

They should stick to name which recently gave (Hypaspists in Alexander), so as not to confuse people.



Jack, Why do you use the English name for the cataphracts, hoplites but not for the hypasipsts?
An example:

1. A Cataphract (English) - Kataphraktoi (Greek)

The word in English is derived from the Greek: κατάφρακτος Kataphraktos (κατάφρακτοι Kataphraktoi), literally meaning "armored" or "completely enclosed".

2. A Hypaspist (English) - Hypaspistai (Greek)

The word in English is derived from the Greek: (Ὑπασπιστής Hypaspistai), literally meaning "shield bearer" or "shield covered".

[Marcus Aemilius Lepidus]

That make totally sense and i hope you be right. Would be nice of Lusted to clarify that, because if you be right, there is obviously an missunderstanding.

[SteamPunk]

Shield bearers works for me.

[KLAssurbanipal]

Shield bearers works for me.

"Shield bearer" is the only meaning of the word, not an English name. Universal, the English name is simply 'Hypaspist (a hypaspist ; hypaspits)'

[Cathal]

Ok...?

[DisgruntledGoat]

I don't understand what this post is about. I think it is pretty clear what Jack was saying... they are using english translations not anglicization. What sort of confusion and controversy is there?

[Marcus Aemilius Lepidus]

The confusion is based on the statement that they are shieldbearers and that they used the English Names. That can have to meanings.

First the Unit is ingame called Shield Bearers.
Second the Unit is ingame called Hypaspists and in the Unit description is mentiond that they are Shield Bearers.

[KLAssurbanipal]

I don't understand what this post is about. I think it is pretty clear what Jack was saying... they are using english translations not anglicization. What sort of confusion and controversy is there?

So, please stop use these words in game: hoplites, principes etc. Should be 'Hoplites' to 'Hoplon/Aspis bearers'?

Hypaspist is an English name. 'Shield bearers' is only meaning of this word, not a name.

All English authors used Hypaspist. I've never seen "shield bearers" as word in historical books.

[Rhaegar1]

Was it really necessary to post the same question in several threats?

Aside from that, allthough I'd prefer hypaspis, I can definately live with shield bearer and I'd rather have jack lusted answered some questions about gameplay features, campaign map or show som new factions. The correct or incorrect name of units is pretty low on my priority list. But I can imagine that it is a somewhat bigger deal for someone spending so much time modding and skinning units as authentic as possible

[Manuel I Komnenos]

Neither. The elite late Macedonian infantry is referred to as the agema or peltasts in most ancient sources. The hypaspists seem to have survived as a unit of lower rank officers in the staff of the King.

In 218, Philip V sailed from Kirrha to Sikyon accompanied by the hypaspistai (Polyb. 5.27.3). In the Amphipolis inscription, the quarters of the hypaspistai are to be put up immediately after those of the king and his immediate circle, and the hypaspistai can be the first to bring information to the king. After the battle of Kynoskephalai, Philip V sent one of the hypaspistai to Larisa to burn his state papers (Polyb. 18.33.2).

[KLAssurbanipal]

Neither. The elite late Macedonian infantry is referred to as the agema or peltasts in most ancient sources. .

You don't understand what I mean.
Lusted said that "shield bearers is an English name". I anwer that English name is "Hypaspist". Shield bearers is only meaning of this word. Agema or peltasts doesn't mean ''shield bearers''.

[RexImperator]

Neither. The elite late Macedonian infantry is referred to as the agema or peltasts in most ancient sources. The hypaspists seem to have survived as a unit of lower rank officers in the staff of the King.

In 218, Philip V sailed from Kirrha to Sikyon accompanied by the hypaspistai (Polyb. 5.27.3). In the Amphipolis inscription, the quarters of the hypaspistai are to be put up immediately after those of the king and his immediate circle, and the hypaspistai can be the first to bring information to the king. After the battle of Kynoskephalai, Philip V sent one of the hypaspistai to Larisa to burn his state papers (Polyb. 18.33.2).

This. There are no battlefield hypaspists in Antigonid armies in this time period.

[SteamPunk]

Without being rude, just get over it.your upset that they are using a name you think is incorrect. Its not the end of the world.

[spartan_warrior]

I don't see the major issue with them being called Shield Bearers, would I prefer to see them called Hypaspists sure. But its just a display text, one of the easiest things to mod.

[Orphydian]

The confusion is based on the statement that they are shieldbearers and that they used the English Names. That can have to meanings.

First the Unit is ingame called Shield Bearers.
Second the Unit is ingame called Hypaspists and in the Unit description is mentiond that they are Shield Bearers

no there is no confusion ...they will use ingame this kind of English descriptive names. But since the hoplites and phalangites can be addapted to English speling and pronounciation I cant really understand why would be so inadequate that Hypaspistai being adjusted as hypaspists.

[Jack Lusted]

Copying answer I posted in my Exclusive Content thread:

Q. Why aren’t you using the actual Latin/Ancient Greek names for units? Does this mean we will see generic named units such as “guy with spear and shield”, and for the barbarians spear warband just with a different faction/cultural name on the front?

A. This question spawned from a post I made where I confirmed the unit featured in the Macedon faction preview is the Shield Bearers. In ancient Greek it was called Hypaspists, which translates to shield bearer.


We always try to strike a balance between flavour and ease of understanding with our unit names. We’re not going to label each and every unit with a name in the original language because 1) many people would have no idea what the names would mean and 2) a lot of the languages don’t exist anymore.


So we want flavour, but in a way that doesn’t overwhelm people with terms they won’t be familiar with, and the vast majority of players will not be familiar with the Ancient Greek or proto-Germanic names for units. We also factor into account whether some terminology is part of common use. Hoplite is a very well-known name, so we use it for Hoplite units in the game.


People voiced concern about the use of Shield Bearer as they felt it was a generic name, however only one unit will have that name, the Shield Bearers based on the Hypaspists of Alexanders and the later successors armies. Those armies will also feature units such as Royal Peltasts, Thorax Swordsmen, Thureos Spears, Companion Cavalry and more. So we use well-known names (Companion Cavalry are well known thanks to many documentaries and books on Alexander) and in some cases mix in historical terms (Thorax meaning body armour) with generic terms such as Swordsmen. Thorax Swordsmen historically would have been Thorakitai, we decided to call them Thorax Swordsmen as it contains flavour in the use of a historical term alongside a word that gives a good indication to players the role of the unit.


In the case of the ‘Barbarian’ factions there will be unique rosters based on cultures, so the Gallic factions will have different units to the Briton factions who will have different units to the Germanic factions. You will see units with names such as Oathsworn, Naked Warriors, Painted Ones, Heroic Nobles, Sword Brothers and more. Names which have flavour to them and try to communicate some of the nature of the cultures they represent without having to use languages which very very few people understand.


I hope this has help explained more about how we name units, and why we have made the decisions behind that.

Cheers,
Jack

[Anna_Gein]

Copying answer I posted in my Exclusive Content thread:

Makes sense now. Thank you.

But still I don't buy the Shield Bearer when there are units such as Thorax swordsmen and Thureos Spears. Should it not have been the other way ?

Personally I didn't know what the hell the hastati or the principes were before RTW but that didn't cause much problem. As someone else noted, you're learning non-historical units, weapons and other stuff in games like Crysis, Command&Conquer etc and here we've got a problem with giving the hypaspists their actual name? Of course, this doesn't mean that we need to take it to the extreme as torongil said with the example of the "Somatofylakes Strategou". But the hypaspistai were a pretty famous and instrumental unit in the campaigns of Alexander, so much, that its name was translated to English, as hypaspists.

Yeah I agree. There is often dozens of fictional weapons in FPS but nobody has problem. What was it in Crysis ? FV71 and DSG-1 . People play PES with false team name just fine.

[MicCal]

Although I can see some reasonability ich such unit name system (not much, however ), I just don't understand why a word "hypaspist" is such a problem now, while it was apparently not back in 2006, when Alexander add-on came out... And considering that Jack said there will be just one unit named "shield bearers", I'm afraid to even ask how the persian name "Sparabara" will be translated...

[Kuroi]

And considering that Jack said there will be just one unit named "shield bearers", I'm afraid to even ask how the persian name "Sparabara" will be translated...

Plainly.. Eastern spearmen... Why bother giving real, historical name, when you can make one up?
It will be simple, so people who they make their games for, namely 8 years olds will understand...

[MicCal]

Plainly.. Eastern spearmen... Why bother giving real, historical name, when you can make one up?

In fact, I expect nothing more from them... but I'm curious what Jack will say then - "we are using English names instead of original", considering that word "sparabara" means exactly "shield bearer" in English?