Vatican not to pay for 7 years of tax evasion

[sabaku_no_gaara]

So, as you may know, the Vatican has over 600 Milion € worth in propperty that has been making it a hefty amount of money. English newspaper the Guardian wrote an interesting piece about this and how the vatican used milions of bribe money given to it by Mussolini to build a property empire that owns several propperties in st james and new bond street The Vatican was pretty quick to deny this well at least that the money came from bribes for accepting the facsist regime.

The EU, The Italians, and Monti spearheading them, where quick to say that seeing how the Church has all this juicy money it should be taxed and pay it's fair share especially since they haven't payed property tax in 7 years thanks to Berlusconi.

The EU has stated now that the Vatican will not have to pay back the taxes it illegaly evaded because the Italians have demonstrated that it is impossible to figure out wich property was used for commercial activites (wich is taxable) and wich properties where used for charity (wich you can't tax) and during what periods they where being used as such. The new tax they will have to pay on all the comercial activities of their propperties will come in effect though, but it will generate less revenue than most people hoped.


What are your thoughts on this?

Do you believe it's really that impossible to trace the usage of their propperties? They have books no? They are supposed to register everything no?

As a religious institution should the Catholic church even be involved in commercial enterprises? Shouldn't the states confiscate all of the Vaticans commercial activities? I mean, how can you be a buisness and be a representative of god on earth? at some point you'll have conflicting interests no? (this mere theory because personally I don't believe priests to be representatives of god on earth, but that is how they see themselves right?)

Should the Vatican be taxed higher?

Could this be a great pr opportunity for the Pope? Now that everyone knows just how wealthy the Vatican is, the Pope could "Donate" a few bilion euro's to the Italian state so that it can balance it's budget and take better care of the struggling Italian population blablabla whatever spin they'd like to give it. Point is, the Pope could donate a crapload of money and become a popular hero if he plays his cards right

[HissingNewt]

Honestly, as dirty as it sounds you can't just tax them if you can't prove the properties were used for commercial activities or how long they were used in that way. I don't really have an issue with the Vatican doing commercial activities either, as long as the profits go towards charity or help maintain churches.

Edit: A good example are the Trappist monasteries. They are involved in a commercial activity (the making of some very fine beer), but all profits maintain their monastery/abbey or go to charities. That sort of thing should not be taxed.

It is pretty dirty using Mussolini's money, but somebody was going to use it somehow, so it may as well be the church.

Edit 2: As nice an idea as the Vatican balancing the budget of Italy is, Italy has more problems than just debt. They need to take a serious look at reforms and decreasing their spending or any donation would not matter in the long term. Same situation with the US, really.

[sabaku_no_gaara]

Honestly, as dirty as it sounds you can't just tax them if you can't prove the properties were used for commercial activities or how long they were used in that way. I don't really have an issue with the Vatican doing commercial activities either, as long as the profits go towards charity or help maintain churches.

Edit: A good example are the Trappist monasteries. They are involved in a commercial activity (the making of some very fine beer), but all profits maintain their monastery/abbey or go to charities. That sort of thing should not be taxed.

It is pretty dirty using Mussolini's money, but somebody was going to use it somehow, so it may as well be the church.

Edit 2: As nice an idea as the Vatican balancing the budget of Italy is, Italy has more problems than just debt. They need to take a serious look at reforms and decreasing their spending or any donation would not matter in the long term. Same situation with the US, really.

How about questioning their accountant and going over their accounts? everything should be neatly registered should it not?

[HissingNewt]

How about questioning their accountant and going over their accounts? everything should be neatly registered should it not?

I don't know what their accounting practices are (almost certainly not the GAAP practiced in the US), but that would probably be a good place to start. Croccer brought some good points, though. If this was Lateran money they can use it as they see fit.

[The Dude]

This seems to me to be a thing that's legitimately hard to figure out. I don't see how they'd do it anyway, but then I'm no trained accountant. Or an accountant at all. Some crimes people get away with, and this is one of them.

[The Despondent Mind]

Tax them , they had a millennium of privileges , not it's their turn to contribute .

[Dr. Croccer]

The Lateran Treaty was a 'bribe' now? It's amusing to what mental gymnastics people are capable of. 'How dare they use money they received in compensation from a state that stole most of its wealth several decades before!'

Point is, the Pope could donate a crapload of money and become a popular hero if he plays his cards right

The reality is that Catholic Church runs some of the biggest charities on the planet and donate more of their share of wealth than most private entities or governments in the world and people still seem to conveniently forget that when they need more money.

[sabaku_no_gaara]

The Lateran Treaty was a 'bribe' now? It's amusing to what mental gymnastics people are capable of. 'How dare they use money they received in compensation from a state that stole most of its wealth several decades before!'

The reality is that Catholic Church runs some of the biggest charities on the planet and donate more of their share of wealth than most private entities or governments in the world and people still seem to conveniently forget that when they need more money.

But that charity mostly goes outside of the EU no?, the church should help real people and not someone from the third world or some bush dweller who has no influence on our economy, industry etc.... and with whom most regular people feel not even a tiny shred of affinity.

Call me bigotted, selfish, narrow minded whatever, but I have a hard time viewing those people as real people my monkeysphere is just verry limited I guess.

So whatever charity the RCC gives non Europeans doesn't count in my book it's wasted money that could be used to preserve or improve our own standard of living.

I'm aware that this makes me sound like a selfish "a hole", but screw that, I have a kidd I'm suposed to be selfish so the kidd has some sort of an inheritance when I die. And also, we have plenty problems in Europe, in my region alone over 10 k people will lose their jobs thanks to Ford, and steel workers clashed with police today in the capital over arcelor Mittal closing, social security is becomming unaffordable for the gouverment, and everything that can be taxed is about to be taxed or receive a tax increase.

And I hear Itally is in an even worse state, the Roman Catholic Church should help it's own people

[Caesar Germanico]

The Lateran Treaty was a 'bribe' now? It's amusing to what mental gymnastics people are capable of. 'How dare they use money they received in compensation from a state that stole most of its wealth several decades before!'

Did the Church deserve something?I was not aware that a state conquering another state (with the great majority of the people of this state supporting the take over) was then obliged to give compensation and donate land so this state could still live.What Italy took from the Papal state was taken by right, it was a liberation against the temporal power of the Pope.There was no need to compensate as there is no need now to mantain its existence.The only reason Mussolini agreed to a treaty, was to make the powerful catholics allies to his regime; he needed them if he wanted full control of the country.To this day who wants power in Italy needs to deal with the Church, making them influent in the nation's politics, a disgrace in a supposed laic state.

The reality is that Catholic Church runs some of the biggest charities on the planet and donate more of their share of wealth than most private entities or governments in the world and people still seem to conveniently forget that when they need more money.

Most of their money doesn't end up in charity though, look at the donations they get from the 8x1000 but yes you have a point here, they offer a service that makes up what other nations won't do.Still that doesn't gives them the right to run Hotel chains without paying taxes, by puting a random altar in a backdoor and then claiming that the building is now a religious one.Shady banking, no taxes , continuous interference in other countries' affairs; I don't think the Church's position can be defended.

[Mithridate]

I had no idea that the Church donated more money, afaik most of the "donations"
goes to missionary efforts like the beloved and utterly corrupted mother Teresa.

Spending money on what i view to be indoctrination, over say the red cross is immense.

I do however know of the centuries of tax exemptions and exploitations made by the church, If their actions can be proven they must pay up.
Access to their books should be demanded, a proper investigation made and they should be appropriately taxed in the future without special treatment.

[Ak1980]

I had no idea that the Church donated more money, afaik most of the "donations"
goes to missionary efforts like the beloved and utterly corrupted mother Teresa.

Not just missionary, they are also opening school and hospital in remote place. That's one thing that i admire from Catholic, they don't try to get name by opening in big city or just trying to get convert in populous area, but they really go to very remote place when the government or any other religion don't care. What they lack is advertising, if i never work in shipping company, i would never realize their work at all.

[Slaytaninc]

I had no idea that the Church donated more money, afaik most of the "donations"
goes to missionary efforts like the beloved and utterly corrupted mother Teresa.

Spending money on what i view to be indoctrination, over say the red cross is immense.

I do however know of the centuries of tax exemptions and exploitations made by the church, If their actions can be proven they must pay up.
Access to their books should be demanded, a proper investigation made and they should be appropriately taxed in the future without special treatment.

Yeah, I'm going to assume you don't know jack about the Catholic Church.

In fact, the Church has done as much as anyone else to help reduce disease in Sub-Saharan Africa, their archaic views on condoms and birth control aside.

[Col. Tartleton]

Yeah, I'm going to assume you don't know jack about the Catholic Church.

In fact, the Church has done as much as anyone else to help reduce disease in Sub-Saharan Africa, their archaic views on condoms and birth control aside.

Maybe not as much as the American Tax payer. I'm pretty sure we cured AIDS.

Well I'm pretty sure the Catholic Church is more interested in saving lives than souls, but it's going to try to do both if it can.

For example the Pope basically said if you're a homosexual or prostitute in an AIDS area wearing a condom is the least of your worries.

A. You're going to get AIDS and die.
B. Then you're going to hell.

They're trying to stop both, but failing that one would be nice.

[Mithridate]

Yeah, I'm going to assume you don't know jack about the Catholic Church.

In fact, the Church has done as much as anyone else to help reduce disease in Sub-Saharan Africa, their archaic views on condoms and birth control aside.

How colorful

You know how many those views get killed? How much it sets back and hinders development?
Id love numbers on their charity, how and where the money is spent like you can via regular donation and help organizations. Until then, ill assume that they walk in the footsteps of mother Teresa.

Sure they do a lot of good, but also they do a truck of bad.

Most of their money doesn't end up in charity though, look at the donations they get from the 8x1000 but yes you have a point here, they offer a service that makes up what other nations won't do.Still that doesn't gives them the right to run Hotel chains without paying taxes, by puting a random altar in a backdoor and then claiming that the building is now a religious one.Shady banking, no taxes , continuous interference in other countries' affairs; I don't think the Church's position can be defended.

Puts it rather well, take a lookie on this:

This is unacceptable, and unfortunately commonplace in the world

The primary missionary work is not to help the populace, it is to convert them.
Theres so many vids on youtube on this i fail to find the one i wanted to show ( lecture on mega-churches and charity ) I hope that gets you digging, this touches on the charity and some of the points.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Simon Cashmere]

The Vatican has sovereign immunity.

[Slaytaninc]

The RCC does not have the money to fix Italy's economy. That's ridiculous.

This is in addition to Dr. Croccer's defense of the RCC.

[Lord Thesaurian]

As far as I know, churches are considered "charity" organizations under US tax law and therefore exempt; hence most churches find clever ways to label all their income and expenditures as "charitable." One more way the first two États manage to avoid taxation.

I don't know about Europe, but it seems laws there are similar in this regard; am I right? With Rome owning roughly 177 million acres of land worldwide with hundreds of billions in annual revenue, the added hurdle of Vatican national sovereignty makes the money even harder to trace. The money laundering rumors circling the Church itself may have been what led JP Morgan Chase to freeze a comparatively small Vatican account last year. How sad that in the 21st century West, we're still dealing with problems of religious entities being exempt from the responsibilities of societal participation.

[Murphy]

How sad that in the 21st century West, we're still dealing with problems of religious entities being exempt from the responsibilities of societal participation.

You people can never seem to make up your mind can you?

"Participate in society, you Romish dogs! And give us all your money! But don't you dare campaign on moral issues! We don't want you participating in our society with your backwards and medieval ways!"

[Lord Thesaurian]

You people can never seem to make up your mind can you?

"Participate in society, you Romish dogs! And give us all your money! But don't you dare campaign on moral issues! We don't want you participating in our society with your backwards and medieval ways!"

I couldn't care less what Rome's social platform is. It seems we, as modern and sovereign citizens, grant her the freedom of speech and expression that she burned, maimed and massacred us for back when the shoe was on the other foot, but hey, an eye for an eye leaves the world blind right? What does that have to do with paying taxes?

[HissingNewt]

I couldn't care less what Rome's social platform is. It seems we, as modern and sovereign citizens, grant her the freedom of speech and expression that she burned, maimed and massacred us for back when the shoe was on the other foot, but hey, an eye for an eye leaves the world blind right? What does that have to do with paying taxes?

It's fairly dishonest to act like the Catholic Church was the only one suppressing speech and using violence to do so back then. That was a pretty widespread practice from a more brutal time, and it's useless to project our expectations onto a different society hundreds of years ago.