New Dale via The Hobbit

[Hengest]

There's been a lot of talk about the elves and dwarves, even the goblins in The Hobbit and whether these would be good to adapt to the game, or not.

Since I developed the concepts for the Dale faction and brought in aspects such as Rhovanion etc naturally I'm very interested to see where Jackson takes Dale.

We only got a very brief glimpse of the Northmen of Dale in An Unexpected Journey, and they look pretty Russian. Not everyone likes that, but they are actually similar to a lot of the ideas for the current Dale units.

One big thing I was surprised at with the films is the fact that they made Dale very similar to Venice, and this is probably a big hint to Lake-town which clearly has some aspects of Venice as an idea- but there is no flavour of Venice in Tolkien's work at all.

Dale as Venice:

[ErgoSumm]

I think Jackson is defiantly trying to put Dale more in line with the 'east', a bit like the easterings of the Second and third LOTR movies, but with some differences to make them a 'good' faction visually. I'm quite interested to see where this goes, especially as it seems to be in direct contrast to the Dwaven style, of which I expected to see more of, Dale having such intimate access to Dwaven stone masonry.

[Heathen Storm]

As one user posted (cannot remember who it is), there is a pretty big influence of Byzantine/Eastern Roman in their buildings. I'll see if I can't find his post somewhere.

I would love to see a bit of an update to the Men of Dale (especially upgrades).

[Hengest]

Yeah that's interesting. I mean the architecture has domes and sandstone, not the kind of thing you associate with Rohan- the people of Rohan are descended from the same culture as the people of Laketown and Dale. I expected grey stone walls.

Naturally, the films are all about aesthetics and creating different flavours, although the books/Tolkien's mind might have imagined Rohan and Dale to have the same feel- clearly that would be a disaster in the films. Jackson has the job of trying to make new concepts all the time, not re-hash old ones. This is why the Wood Elves and dwarves look different between the trilogy of films and THe Hobbit film.

[Heathen Storm]

Yeah that's interesting. I mean the architecture has domes and sandstone, not the kind of thing you associate with Rohan- the people of Rohan are descended from the same culture as the people of Laketown and Dale. I expected grey stone walls.

Naturally, the films are all about aesthetics and creating different flavours, although the books/Tolkien's mind might have imagined Rohan and Dale to have the same feel- clearly that would be a disaster in the films. Jackson has the job of trying to make new concepts all the time, not re-hash old ones. This is why the Wood Elves and dwarves look different between the trilogy of films and THe Hobbit film.

I agree. I think he certainly did a great job though, I mean it wasn't completely terrible or ruining the immersion. I watched it in 3D and I was so engrossed - even at that point - that it felt pretty natural.

[lordyu]

I love the Hobbits dale, for me it was one of the best scene in the movie. Dale was appropriate for its location. It has not an Italian architectural style but a neo byzantine style.

[Heathen Storm]

Here's the post I was talking about Hross:

I'm surprised no one has seen the connexion between Dale's architecture and Byzantine architecture. It's right there. The combination of bricks and masonry, the big domes and the many-fused arches.

If Gondor's architecture was so Romanesque inspired, a combination of Late Roman and Neoromanesque, it is only coherent that when the design team went for something different, and seeing how they looked east to Russia, they went for the spiritual predecessor of Russian art: Byzantine art.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Dale has a Russian feeling inherited from Byzantium, only they decided not to go for the timber part of it.

[Gandalfus]

Finally, a post about the movie that does not hate on Jackson.

[Hengest]

Gandalf- give it time man!

Heathen Storm- I agree, nice find. Yeah the Byzantine-Roman thing seems pretty logical I suppose. Here's another thought- maybe the dragon and the Easterlings represent the Turks and the Fall of Constantinople from the east? :p

I saw the 3D version too, looking into a dragon's eye was one of my life's highpoints

[mondpeiler]

my points for...


Dale's buildings:

just to clarify: the venetian "style" is strongly influenced by Byzanz - so if you look at the film-Dale you don't have to argue about if it is V. or B.
I like the look of the movie-Dale. it would be nice to see the town as a custom settlement (though there may - until now - not be enough scenes to make it).
Maybe develope the generic towns out of the given material.


Dale's roster:

well, what we saw in the first Hobbit movie is just a very short glimpse of the soldiers design.
only thing I really noticed: they seem dressed in red and have russian hats/helmets. that's all I can remember. (and I'm not sure about the red - it was to fast )

I'd like to state, as I did before, that I really love the current roster - and I would be very sad if it would become given up and totally reworked.
(though I'd wish for certain visible armour-upgrades, but that's the same with nearly all factions)

but I will not commit myself to an absolute NO to a rework.
I think we have to wait for the other two movies to really decide if it is worht to rework Dale or if the current roster is better.

AND maybe it will be quite fittable to just restock the current roster with some new units of the film. or maybe just redesign Dale by taking the current units and change them slightly, not wholly.

[Beorn]

I'm the only one who thinks Dale is more influenced by Novgorod than Venice or Constantinople? I understand that orthodox designs look the same to you Westerners, but the gear reminds a lot of 11th-12th century Rus warriors and some earlier pictures of Varangians

Mod-wise, if some culture had to be associated with the Rurikian style this should be the Variags of Khand though, not the Bardings of Dale (unless the team has decided to go the visuals all the way to the movies side )

[Æsir]

The movie version is clearly influenced by Kievan Rus (Southern Russia, Ukraine) but our current game design and also my imagination is based on Novgorodian (Northern) Russia. In my book Long lake of Middle Earth is Lake Ilmen of Russia and that's because I favor North-Russian designs for Dale.

I'm the only one who thinks Dale is more influenced by Novgorod than Venice or Constantinople? I understand that orthodox designs look the same to you Westerners, but the gear reminds a lot of 11th-12th century Rus warriors and some earlier pictures of Varangians

EDIT: So I vote for not changing to movie version at least yet.

[mondpeiler]

no Beorn, you're not the only one.
but you have to differentiate between building- and soldier-design.

buildings: (general) byzantine
soldiers: (general) russian

personally I can't easily point out differences between Kiev and Novgorod and Byzanz. there are general images I connect to each.
but that's not because I'm out of the west, but because I never looked at them in detail.

and there is seldom a 100% regional style. at least there are many overlappings and influences in different directions.

[Påsan]

Personally i would have preferred a more Russian style considering how far north Dale really is. I assume we will see more of them in the next two movies. Don't do anything until then

[Ngugi]

I assume we will see more of them in the next two movies. Don't do anything until then

Second this; currently not enough movie sources exist to make a conclusion of either inspiration for or rejects for TATW.

[Dunadd]

The settlements and models you did already for TATW are much, much, much better than Jackson's versions. I don't see any need to change to the film versions where the films are worse.

Where Jackson sticks to the books he's pretty good at translating scenes into film. However when he decides to use his own imagination he makes things ridiculous and they look terrible - staircases collapsing as people run across then in Moria (because you really need something just to tip things into over the top and ridiculous in a scene where the characters are being chased through an abandoned underground city by monsters led by a demon), Thranduil on an elk - and now Dale as Venice, populated by Mongolian influenced medieval Russians.

p.s love the Rhovanion remnant mercenaries and the idea that the Kings of Dale are trying to restore Rhovanion as part of their kingdom

[Pyres Δt Varanasi]

I really din't mind Dale looked really OK. Just the way I Imagine it. The soldiers well I Imagine them more Northern Looking.

[Dunadd]

Dalemen aren't meant to look Eastern imo - if they were they'd be Easterlings

[nein]

I thought Dale was supposed to be Wales or something like that? This byzantine nonsense is silly considering they are northmen just like the rohirrim who descend from them... Rohan shares borders with gondor (who are actually supposed to represent the eastern romans) and has not been culturally influenced by them in this manner! I would expect Dale to look alot like rohan... with some dwarven and maybe elven influence.

>maybe the dragon and the Easterlings represent the Turks and the Fall of Constantinople from the east? :p

I believe that Minas Tirith is constantinople and the mordor orcs are supposed to be the turks. Rhun has alot more in common with a turk faction than orcs naturally so it does seem odd. Another thing to consider is the turk names you see orc generals using... mostly captains with names like 'ughur' 'gunduz' etc, these are very similar to traditional turk names, you can also see the use of letters with the two dots above them.

[Pyres Δt Varanasi]

Yes but you have a weird looking pony-girl thing with a quiff and wearing a bow-tie as a sidepic

I'm Sorry Sir Dunadd but I haven't offend you or say anything wrong so that you can critic my avatar if I want to have a weird looking Pony with a quiff and Bow-tie so let me have my pony. And as for the Dale topic I was giving MY OPINION and anyone can say their opinion here freely. And my opinion is that I liked the Hobbit's Dale with its eastern look. Thanks.