[Your Input Needed] Clan Military Organizations

[Hazbones]

I am working on a mod that takes into consideration the various military organizations used by the clan leaders during the Sengoku Jidai. I will refer to the military organization of clan armies as "Organization Systems" (or OS for short).

Through my own research, I have classified at least 4 major OS's used during the Sengoku Jidai. There were many more minor tested OS's used but they were too short-lived to really get any historical background on. These major OS are based on my own research and created by me for my mod purposes only.

The OS's are:
Provincial
Clan
Vassal
Military

OS Descriptions

Provincial- This system was used by several daimyo to get as many men on the field of battle as quickly as possible resembling a "quick-response" force. Standing armies were replaced by part-time soldiers/farmers so units tended to be huge. Of course training and uniformity of weapons and armour were sacrificed. Using all available men to fight meant using mercenaries and even Christian converts to fill ranks. Clan- This system would be used by the daimyo who were from "old" families with long histories and held strong beliefs in the ancient way of life. These clans were some of the last to adopt modernization of weaponry (and most too late to catch up to the other more advanced clans) and tended to ally themselves with the Buddhist and Ikko clans in their regions to help them hold out against outside influences. Many clans with this OS had no grand plans when it comes to becoming Shogun and were content with just controlling the area around their home provinces. This led to a very slow campaign of expansion where "cleansing" takes place in conquered regions to rid any notions of new culture or religion. Vassal- There was really only one notable clan which used this OS, they were the Chosokabe. It would seem that this system resembled the true medieval European system of king and subjects. It was mainly reserved for the backwater regions in Japan due to the strict control that must be maintained. Large areas would quickly lose cohesion. In this OS, the daimyo has strict control over everything and everyone. On the battlefield, the daimyo, not the generals, would try to control every aspect of battle. Mistrust was rampant and only a small handful of people (sometimes not even family were trusted) were given tasks to carry out without supervision. This came to be called the Parent/Child (Yorioya/Yoriki) rank system. All units had a Parent and Child (Senior Commander and Second Commander) in battle especially the vassals in the army. Military- This was the "new" modernized army organization. Standardization of weapons and armour was maintained and the pursuit of new weapons and technology drove the daimyo to abandon culture, religion and friendships to get the materials needed to have the best army on the field. Military expansion was key thus having a neighbor with this OS was the most dangerous one to watch out for. Of course when you have the best army, you have the greatest desire to become Shogun!

I have put in a few assignments of my own based on what I have read but I am sure there are people in this community that have much better knowledge of the clan histories than I do.

What I want the community to help me in doing is assigning an OS to the clans in the game.
Please use this list and give me your ideas on which OS best fits the clan.

The Clans:

Amako -Provincial
Anegakoji -Military
Asai -Military
Asano -Clan
Ashikaga -Clan
Ashina -Military
Bessho
Chosokabe -Vassal
Date - Military
Hatakeyama Clan
Hatano
Hattori -Clan
Hojo -Provincial
Honma - Clan
Hosokawa*
Ikko-Ikki -Clan
Imagawa -Clan
Ishida*-Provincial
Ito
Jinbo
Kikkawa
Kiso -Military
Kitabatake -Military
Koboyakawa*
Kono
Kuroda* -Military
Matsuda
Miyoshi -Clan
Mogami -Provincial
Mori -Clan
Murakami -Provincial
Oda -Military
Ogigayatsu -Vassal
Otomo -Military
Ouchi - Clan
Sagara
Saito
Sakai
Satake -Provincial
Satomi
Shimazu
Shoni
Sogo
Takaoka
Takeda
Tokugawa
Toyotomi*
Tsutsui
Uesugi -Military
Ukita* -Military
Utsunomiya*
Urakami
Yamana
Yamanouchi -Vassal

Feel free to include some historical background for some of your choices. All OS used firearms so there should be some other reason in your decisions.

[weeeee659]

What does it mean if there is a * next to a clan name?

EDIT: Otomo I think should have a military OS

[Hazbones]

What does it mean if there is a * next to a clan name?

EDIT: Otomo I think should have a military OS

For the otomo I was torn between vassal and military so i havent made a choice on them yet. I didn't know enough about their daimyos leadership style.

What made you pick military OS for them?

[Hazbones]

Minor clans in the game that don't start out with their own region.

[Hazbones]

I have decided to make the Uesugi, Ogigayatsu and Yamanouchi clans Military OS.

Historically, these were all the same clan with the two later ones branching off from the main line.
I had read that the Uesugi were renowned warriors with prized swords and cavalry. I think this fits nicely with the military OS as the other clans were not as expressionistic as Uesugi was.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Military as I am Oda. God, just spam Yari like a beast.

[O'Hea]

I like this idea a lot but I guess I worry that some of the OSs will practically be nerfs (the military organization seems to have clearly been the most successful in the long run, and the clan system seems like a purely defensive-public order oriented option). How exactly are you thinking of implementing these in the game?

[Hazbones]

I like this idea a lot but I guess I worry that some of the OSs will practically be nerfs (the military organization seems to have clearly been the most successful in the long run, and the clan system seems like a purely defensive-public order oriented option). How exactly are you thinking of implementing these in the game?

The military OS was eventually the successful one historically but every player will use the OS differently than how it was used in real life. Each OS has its strengths and weaknesses. The military one for instance uses the best equipment but numbers (the Provincial OS specialty) can quickly overwhelm better weapons if used effectively <--And by that I mean a war of attrition.

You can read more about how all of these will be worked out over at my mod thread (see my signature).

[Jokern]

I'd say the Honma would have the Clan OS. Their only province is an relatively isolated island, so it would seem to me that they wod try to stay out of conflict and just mind their own business.

The Date, that's a tricky one IMO. I've read a manga/autobiography about Masamune and to me it seems Military OS swould be fitting.

EDIT: What was your thought behind Ikko-Ikki being a Clan OS? To me they seem like more of a Provincial OS.

[Hazbones]

EDIT: What was your thought behind Ikko-Ikki being a Clan OS? To me they seem like more of a Provincial OS.

My thoughts were that the Ikko-Ikki was more of a resistance movement. They were a sect of Buddhists and did not have a huge clout that would cause large provincial units to spring up when called.

In fact, there were various Buddhist sects within a single province and they were at each other's throats half the time too which caused them to war with each other and allied themselves with clans that were fighting their common foes.

I picked CLAN OS because it is one that focuses on a defensive posture which is what the Ikko were, on the defense most of the time.

I have not read anywhere that stated the Ikko-Ikki had any interest in becoming Shogun either.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Date Masamune used a retainer and vassal system but I think he mostly tried to centralize his authority. Date Masamune's father was an Oda vassal in the Shogunate system at least, so I don't know if that counts for anything. Date Masamune's main thing was an increase in disciplined soldiers as well as the wealth to maintain them and an increase in clan cavalry and musketeers.

[Hazbones]

Date Masamune used a retainer and vassal system but I think he mostly tried to centralize his authority. Date Masamune's father was an Oda vassal in the Shogunate system at least, so I don't know if that counts for anything. Date Masamune's main thing was an increase in disciplined soldiers as well as the wealth to maintain them and an increase in clan cavalry and musketeers.

Was Date Masamune more interested in improving his military and expansion or was he more of a control freak that wanted to generally control every aspect of his realm and expand more slowly?

[O'Hea]

Was Date Masamune more interested in improving his military and expansion or was he more of a control freak that wanted to generally control every aspect of his realm and expand more slowly?

I'd consider Date Masamune a military type along Oda Nobunaga's lines. He didn't expand as rapidly but he had the same aggressive policy, openness towards foreign ideas, and emphasis on development.

[Hazbones]

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Date Masamune actually got that policy from his father, who in turn got it from none other than... well Nobunaga of course, being Nobunaga's vassal and what not teaches you a few things like guns and cavalry = good. The Date also got lots of money from a Nobunaga style organization but also from their openness to foreign trade. The Date were all about bringing everything in for their army so yes they are essentially like the Oda.

[Hazbones]

Ok, so what other clans would you guys say would fit the other OS's? It seems we have a lot of Military ones which were the easiest to identify.

[O'Hea]

I just read quite a bit about the Ouchi authority structure, and I'm not sure which OS is the best fit for them. Clan and Provincial both seem reasonable- the central rule in Suo and Nagato clearly fit the Clan approach, with authority concentrated in the hands of close kin and very long-serving vassal families. On the other hand, they never exerted much control over the border regions in Iwami, Buzen, and the other outer provinces, keeping more of a Provincial system in the marches. On the whole maybe Clan would be the best fit, but since they were a fairly successful expansionist clan they seem to break the mold a bit.

[Hazbones]

Well, the Clan OS factions were expansionists too just they never really had any goals beyond extending their domain around their home provinces or took over a region to accomplish some near-term goal.
I think Ouchi could fit as Clan OS as you suggested without any issues.

[Hazbones]

On a side-note, I think I will change Ogigayatsu and Yamanouchi clans from Military OS to Vassal OS.

I think this will fit their roles in the game better. Initially I figured "military OS" because they were virtually part of the Uesugi clan but then I thought, "They were PART OF the Uesugi clan"! Basically, they were vassals to the Uesugi so it would seem right to give them the Vassal OS.

Anyone disagree?

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

No, I agree.
Can clans change their type, because in the beginning the Uesugi controlled the Hojo regions as well and were provincial but under Kenshin changed to military.