Stainless Steel Preview: Units overhaul

[Ichon]

are the bysantine scoutatoi swordsmen going to throw javellins?

Probably not but not ruled out.

[Ser Chris]

Very nice units

[Chazz1225]

Hoping you will be getting rid of many, and I mean MANY POINTLESS mercenary troops that are currently available in 6.4, for example Hunters, Hashashim Mercs, Sergeant Swordsmen, Gwent Raiders and countless others who take up space for more needed troops for the Northern Eastern factions like the Kievans, the Teutons and the Lithuanians

[Ichon]

Hoping you will be getting rid of many, and I mean MANY POINTLESS mercenary troops that are currently available in 6.4, for example Hunters, Hashashim Mercs, Sergeant Swordsmen, Gwent Raiders and countless others who take up space for more needed troops for the Northern Eastern factions like the Kievans, the Teutons and the Lithuanians

Definitely get rid of some units but more AOR units as replacements for the most part not so much as roster units though east areas should get 5-6 more AOR units at least. Probably 2 per era at minimum. There are at least 50 units currently that should be able to be taken out and better AOR units found. A few roster without any early unique units might gain some but more likely AOR.

[Darius_D]

Hello, it is great and very welcome news indeed. I mostly count on strong overhaul in northeastern part of the map. Its unit rosters with vanilla units, as well as province design are something definitely to fix.

I recently play on Hard/Hard in hotseat for Venice, Poland and Jerusalem Kingdom. Here below let me give you some feedback (please move my post if posted in wrong place).

North-Eastern Europe - some innacuracies.
As for Polish faction. 1st issue - titles. By any means it's a mistake to call a Polish ruler a senior duke (I guess this is vanilla issue). Correctly for 1100AD would be a prince, but still it was a temporary title between kingships, also for the historical period of "provincial division" - a senior duke was likewise a temporary title between kingship. Throu all period, the actual title for a legitimate ruler of whole Poland was a king, and this only is proper, especially since the game engine doesn't allow for "temporary periods without a king".
As for Polish provincial titles - there was nothing like "szlachta of [city name]". Szlachta means nobility. The naming convention was changing but much better would be either wojewoda (ruler of voivodship (a province)) or kasztelan (ruler of a castle). Ancillaries for high positions and titles need historical adjustment, too. Please PM if you need any my help about it.
I wish there are some fine unique Czech units to be available in Bohemia only, even if this faction is absent. Shame there is nothing.
As for viking mercenaries - historically they were present in military roster for that region in early period (and helped establish some states, namely Rus Kiev), but should rather dissappear by 1100AD. So not clear why they suddenly appear as mercenaries - since about ~1180-90 near Kiev.

Province system deficiencies.
Compared to other regions, Poland, Prussia and Lithuania look simply overlooked. Which is difficult to justify, as by default, the game should concentrate on regions of most interesting historical war campaigns, and for northeastern Europe they were, among others, the Mongol invasion and, especially the Teutonic Order campaign.
You can't have captivating teutonic campaign with this lack of provinces. And the shape of existing ones is historically questionable, too.
In Prussia there are only two regions - Thorn, melted also with Gdansk region of Polish heritage, and originally lithuanian Palanga. No separate ethnic prussian regions for such important places as Marienburg (Teutonic Order capital) or Konigsberg (latter capital). The core of Poland (except independent Silesia) being actually a vast terrain divided by only 2 provinces - an artificial one around Kraków, melted from several historical ones, and the 2nd one Mazowsze around Płock.
Compare it with multitude of provinces in Middle East, Turkey, Greek mainland, Iberian Peninsula or even North Africa (held by Moors). There is a number of regions to borrow from.

My suggestion: Prussia should consist of 3 provinces: Ziemia Chełmińska (germ. Kulmerland) without Gdańsk region (capital Thorn), Pomezania (capital Marienburg), and East Prussia (capital either Konigsberg or Elbing). As for proper Poland: Wielkopolska (capital Poznań), Małopolska (capital Kraków), Eastern Pomerania & Kashubia (capital Gdańsk) - a Polish region conquered by the Teutonic Order and finally won over back to Poland, and Mazowsze (capital Płock or Grodzisk Mazowiecki).
In order to keep ethnic prussian provinces not conquerable by Poland nor Lithuania before Teutonic Order appears, the script should overthrow any invader back to rebels.

In general I wish that the most interesting historical campaigns such like Crusades to Holy Land, Reconquista, the 100 Years War, and also including overlooked Teutonic Order campaign, will be specially supported by the gameplay design. First of all, by proper care about province design, and by all the rest - special missions and rewards, proper unit rosters, ancillaries, and more.
---------

Feedback about gameplay balancing issues.

- I never encountered internal revolt (disloyalty) - please make it possible! Suggestions - lost strategic province in war (like a capital, or last castle - about 90% probability of disloyalty disruption), excommunication by the pope (like 75% probability), etc.
- Seljuk Turks are regularly bitten by Byzantine Empire, to the brink of extinction. This need to be rebalanced - I hope to see at least once Turkish invasion on mainland Europe.
- Byzantines increasing domination is virtually unstoppable.
- Fatimids are quite well balanced, but still could be a bit stronger and aggressive towards Kingdom of Jerusalem, at least on Hard. So I would empower Seljuks, Fatimids, and KJ.
- in northeastern Europe Lithuania is regularly dominating surrounding regions, including Poland and eliminating them inthe quickest. I may be biased towards Poland but objectively I don't see those two factions properly balanced.
- Please remove possibility to set up a fort - this is ruining behavior of AI, and player can totally block some cities/castles against any AI invasion.
- Please enable garrison script for AI cities/castles to be besieged. I know it is rather a dream to make it for all sites, but at least for most strategic sites it is worth considering. Too often there is just very small garrison protecting many important places.
- Please remove or reduce possibility of a general being "severely wounded" - feature of automatically resolved battles. It's annoying as hell and its positive impact on gameplay is questionable.
- There is only one Polish diplomat available through first 50 years of hard campaign(!). Considering more strategic gameplay and less hassle, I suggest min 2 and max 3 diplomats for any faction (incl Kingdom of Jerusalem) at any given period, max 4 merchants (6 for merchant factions like Venice, Byzantines, Arabic), max 4 spies, max 2 assassins (say 3 for some arabic), max 4 priests/imams (needs to cancel missions "hire a priest in that city")
- Buying high level horse barracks offer little value and access for new units, at least compared with infantry barracks.
- Would be great to try and force AI to use armies with generals.
- Script making negative flow when being forced to be a vassal. Positive big one-time financial flow when breaking vassal dependency (attack on master).


Regards and cheers for the efforts of the whole team so far.

[Ichon]

North-Eastern Europe - some innacuracies.
As for Polish faction. 1st issue - titles. By any means it's a mistake to call a Polish ruler a senior duke (I guess this is vanilla issue). Correctly for 1100AD would be a prince, but still it was a temporary title between kingships...

As for Polish provincial titles - there was nothing like "szlachta of [city name]". Szlachta means nobility. The naming convention was changing but much better would be either wojewoda (ruler of voivodship (a province)) or kasztelan (ruler of a castle). Ancillaries for high positions and titles need historical adjustment, too. Please PM if you need any my help about it.

I wish there are some fine unique Czech units to be available in Bohemia only, even if this faction is absent. Shame there is nothing.

Province system deficiencies.

My suggestion: Prussia should consist of 3 provinces: Ziemia Chełmińska (germ. Kulmerland) without Gdańsk region (capital Thorn), Pomezania (capital Marienburg), and East Prussia (capital either Konigsberg or Elbing). As for proper Poland: Wielkopolska (capital Poznań), Małopolska (capital Kraków), Eastern Pomerania & Kashubia (capital Gdańsk) - a Polish region conquered by the Teutonic Order and finally won over back to Poland, and Mazowsze (capital Płock or Grodzisk Mazowiecki).
In order to keep ethnic prussian provinces not conquerable by Poland nor Lithuania before Teutonic Order appears, the script should overthrow any invader back to rebels.

In general I wish that the most interesting historical campaigns such like Crusades to Holy Land, Reconquista, the 100 Years War, and also including overlooked Teutonic Order campaign, will be specially supported by the gameplay design. First of all, by proper care about province design, and by all the rest - special missions and rewards, proper unit rosters, ancillaries, and more.
---------

Feedback about gameplay balancing issues.

- I never encountered internal revolt (disloyalty) - please make it possible! Suggestions - lost strategic province in war (like a capital, or last castle - about 90% probability of disloyalty disruption), excommunication by the pope (like 75% probability), etc.
- Please enable garrison script for AI cities/castles to be besieged. I know it is rather a dream to make it for all sites, but at least for most strategic sites it is worth considering. Too often there is just very small garrison protecting many important places.
- There is only one Polish diplomat available through first 50 years of hard campaign(!).
- Buying high level horse barracks offer little value and access for new units, at least compared with infantry barracks.

Titles are something relatively easy to change and I'd guess former map was made based on wiki- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Przemys%C5%82_II which truthfully the only distinction I am aware of for a kingdom is when Pope recognized a King which seems to have happened with Boleslaw but thereafter most rulers called themselves Duke rather than King until 1400s. So that is a temporary period of nearly 300 years without a hereditary kingship. The other titles suggestions are interesting and something HofW could certainly look at when making factional ancillary titles.

What would you suggest as an early era Czech unit? There are later Hussites but only as mercenaries so there is a Bohemian units available but you'll rarely see them playing early campaign. What styles/names of warriors active in 1100s would be potential? It is a waste simply to make a unit of knights and call them Bohemian Knights for example, but something more unique as AOR unit is a good idea.

The province suggestions you made are a bit difficult due to time. Teutonic Knights were not active until late 1200s and so that is almost 200 year gap between campaign start and founding of Marienburg for example. With 2 turns per year about 370 turns would pass. Ideally SS will have more than 1 campaign similar to past versions with 1100, 1220, and 1450 but those details aren't final yet. I personally hope for a 1270 campaign so Mongol invasion (which does not work very well) would be finished. Then we can still have a more focused Timurid invasion for people want to fight massive invasion. At most a 1240 campaign might be interesting when Mongols are poised to invade Poland with chaos in much of the rest of east with small factions as vassals(allies since we can't start with vassals) of Mongols and many rebel regions.

Gdansk vs Chelmno or Torun is interesting question and if you have more information that would be helpful. Keep in mind the timeline and 199 province limit. Poland area is probably only 3% of map so out of 199 that is roughly 6 provinces- due the empty spaces of NE, Sahara, and Arabia probably should get 8-11 regions depending how you count Bohemia, Halych, and Hrodna etc. I think Poland has currently 9 and it would be unfair to other area of map to greatly expand that amount. Stettin, Bohemia, Poznan, Wroclaw, Krakow, Plock, Hrodna, Gdansk, and Twangste. Maybe 1 more region could be squeezed in or the current provinces realigned in some way. I would be interested in a 'pagan' rebel province but I can't see how to name it or have it squeezed in. The only other alternative is to make some rebel pagan stacks and increase rebel frequency.

Making interesting events is of course more fun but large amounts of scripting slows turn times and require alot of work to make interesting events that don't cause CTD. The issue with that is usually manpower of volunteers and campaign balance. Garrison script is also interesting but since some people hate that feature as AI already gets large bonus would probably fit as a submod better so people can customize their experience.

Unfortunately I disagree about agent availability. Since every agent relies on a building the player has responsibility to construct the buildings to get more diplomats and spies. Between diplomat and princess most campaigns should have at least 2 agents in first 50 turns and often more if capturing a larger town or simply growing some towns. Diplomats are available in townhall I think so growth requirements are not so huge. I personally would find 4 of each agent distracting to get on turn one- 12 agents to manage? Diplomat, spy, assassin, priest, and later princesses? You should gain those through campaign. Every faction getting 1 of each at start is even questionable to me but probably for balance ok. I even like the idea of having Venice, Genoa, Novgorod, etc start with 2 merchants or CS and Spanish start with 2 priests as a tiny bit unique for the faction but more than 2 agents is up to player to obtain.

Availability and building tree in SS definitely require some improvement. Not all factions were balanced well at start and while there are some positive aspects of making higher level walls more difficult to acquire it also makes some factions even more unbalanced when 3/4 of their roster is recruited in fortress and higher and there is only 1 castle per 3 towns. Makes army composition tend to be 90% militias for long time which makes for boring early campaign to me- low building tier should till have some units available other than militia- simply in smaller numbers which with smaller economy is good enough. Strong faction unique or high tier units might be available only at highest buildings but right now even middle tier units are often starting only in fortress.

In the end it also comes down to volunteers and the time available. If you really want to see something added to SS, learn how to mod it and offer to help the dev team.

[Darius_D]

Actually, since I posted my entry, I realised a bit more about design approach of this mod, and I wonder anymore why mods like "Historical Improvement Project" (a link found in your signature, I wish I knew it before) are in submods, and are not integral part of the mod.

Still, why not to look for more improvement.

Titles are something relatively easy to change and I'd guess former map was made based on wiki- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Przemys%C5%82_II which truthfully the only distinction I am aware of for a kingdom is when Pope recognized a King which seems to have happened with Boleslaw but thereafter most rulers called themselves Duke rather than King until 1400s. So that is a temporary period of nearly 300 years without a hereditary kingship.

Actually, 195 years. The last kingship before 1100 AD (start date of the mod) was king Bolesław II the Bold, who died in 1079 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Polish_monarchs. Then there was a period of dukes (crown was not granted by Papacy, then there was internal division issue) which finished in 1295. Since that date the kingship was restored for good (followed soon by reunion of Poland). It's weird to play conquests by Poland and being called a duke, a title associated with period of internal political desintegration.

Anyway, I came accross an idea - the default title could be just "ruler" for any faction, and the actual title could be gained by ancillary - similar to provincial titles. So depending on things like: historical period, popularity standing by the pope, and regions conquered - the actual title could be either duke or king, and full name could include claims to regions conquered or claimed by marriage. Let's say, intially my ruler of Poland was a duke but Poland gained high standing by the pope and this triggered an ancillary - granted title of a king.
My ruler also conquered, let's say, one hungarian province and his title is changing to: King of Poland and Hungary, and this political claim is adding conflict to relations with hungarian faction.
In later periods, the kingship would be kingship by default and could reflect historical changes, for example King of Poland-Lithuania (under condition Lithuania is wiped out in the same time and Poland could be a hereditary of union between both countries).

The province suggestions you made are a bit difficult due to time. Teutonic Knights were not active until late 1200s and so that is almost 200 year gap between campaign start and founding of Marienburg for example. With 2 turns per year about 370 turns would pass.

I was thinking about its status as of Independent (Rebels). Ideally, they shall be unconqeurable until appearence of the Teutonic Order.

Ideally SS will have more than 1 campaign similar to past versions with 1100, 1220, and 1450 but those details aren't final yet. I personally hope for a 1270 campaign so Mongol invasion (which does not work very well) would be finished. Then we can still have a more focused Timurid invasion for people want to fight massive invasion. At most a 1240 campaign might be interesting when Mongols are poised to invade Poland with chaos in much of the rest of east with small factions as vassals(allies since we can't start with vassals) of Mongols and many rebel regions.

Agreed that one massive campaign encompassing 400 years or so doesn't work well. It's difficult to balance all that on strategic level (conquests, expansions, invasions, tech trees).

Gdansk vs Chelmno or Torun is interesting question and if you have more information that would be helpful. Poland area is probably only 3% of map so out of 199 that is roughly 6 provinces- due the empty spaces of NE, Sahara, and Arabia probably should get 8-11 regions depending how you count Bohemia, Halych, and Hrodna etc. I think Poland has currently 9 and it would be unfair to other area of map to greatly expand that amount. Stettin, Bohemia, Poznan, Wroclaw, Krakow, Plock, Hrodna, Gdansk, and Twangste. Maybe 1 more region could be squeezed in or the current provinces realigned in some way. I would be interested in a 'pagan' rebel province but I can't see how to name it or have it squeezed in. The only other alternative is to make some rebel pagan stacks and increase rebel frequency.

The idea behind several provinces for Prussia is roughly the same as for multiple provinces in Iberia to play Reconquista or in Middle East to play Crusades - they help to establish historical zones of conflict so that all the war is contained and developed within its borders from the gameplay point of view.
In Prussia the Teutonic Order first established itself around Chełmno (Thorn being on the map is an acceptable replacement) and started to build its defensive castles first northwards along Vistula to the sea, and then pushed eastwards onto the Prussians. It was a long period before they fully forced them into submission, and then continued pressing onto Lithuanians.
So if there is just one province - initially Polish Thorn (and dubious second - lithuanian Palanga) - how you can play at all Prussian wars scenario? How to establish solid economical power for the Order in the region?

For the same purpose (the Teutonic campaign) I call for just increase of Polish provinces.

Poland area is probably only 3% of map so out of 199 that is roughly 6 provinces- due the empty spaces of NE, Sahara, and Arabia probably should get 8-11 regions depending how you count Bohemia, Halych, and Hrodna etc. I think Poland has currently 9 and it would be unfair to other area of map to greatly expand that amount. Stettin, Bohemia, Poznan, Wroclaw, Krakow, Plock, Hrodna, Gdansk, and Twangste. Maybe 1 more region could be squeezed in or the current provinces realigned in some way. I would be interested in a 'pagan' rebel province but I can't see how to name it or have it squeezed in. The only other alternative is to make some rebel pagan stacks and increase rebel frequency.

To clarify, Polish provinces, as of now are: Kraków, Płock and Thorn, although Thorn (without absent Gdansk) was the land granted for the Teutonic Order - it is from this place they started Prussian Wars and then pushed forward against all neighbours. Wrocław can't be counted in as it was finally taken over by HRE (Brandenburg) by mid era, same for Stettin/Pomerania.
Halych and Zhytomier, were either semi-independent or under Rus influence until Mongol invasion, only in XIV century Lithuania and then Poland gained control of some Halych terrains. Baia, Targoviste were not dominion of Poland at all throu all medieval.


I agree that for truly just Teutonic scenario, a new map for middle and late era would be more helpful.
Perhaps the Historical Improvement Project could deal with that?

[Evalation]

I know its been mentioned before but I think you guys deffinately should add Caudillos Roman unit pack for the Byzantine Empire. I cant seem to play SS anymore with it just becuase they look that badass.

Please consider it.

[Tomas.carney]

It looks good however I have one question when do you expect this to come out ?

[╬Ritterbruder╬]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Chekok]

Doesn't anyone else think that the Byzantine empire should be called Roman empire or Eastern Roman empire , because the name Byzantine empire was given by Historians and it is thuslly not historically correct. For example if it would be named Byzantine empire shouldn't the holy roman empire be named Germany??I don't know what you guys think about this it just seams more accurate to me and adds to the immersion of the game .

[Vissewalde rex de Gerzika]

North-Eastern Europe - some innacuracies.

I totally agree with this, eastern europe and Middle east needs some serious rework(it is going to take place from what i have read and seen from the latest previews)

Province system deficiencies.

This is a little tricky issue - the game already is at its province limit, so you would have to remove a region somewhere to make place for a new one. I believe that eastern europe deserves a few more settlements, but thats about it.

- Seljuk Turks are regularly bitten by Byzantine Empire, to the brink of extinction. This need to be rebalanced - I hope to see at least once Turkish invasion on mainland Europe.
- Byzantines increasing domination is virtually unstoppable.

Play late era, the Byzzies are nothing because of the 4th crusades events.

- Please remove or reduce possibility of a general being "severely wounded" - feature of automatically resolved battles. It's annoying as hell and its positive impact on gameplay is questionable.

It usually wears off after a turn or 2 and unless you need your general to be a hero of the day it wont make a huge impact. Also - dont autoresolve.

[Darius_D]

I totally agree with this, eastern europe and Middle east needs some serious rework(it is going to take place from what i have read and seen from the latest previews)

This is a little tricky issue - the game already is at its province limit, so you would have to remove a region somewhere to make place for a new one. I believe that eastern europe deserves a few more settlements, but thats about it.

Thank you for the quick answer. Can't wait then. And yes, I mean, since the region limit is reached, it's still possible to find some regions which can borrow some regions without ruining local gameplay, to fix dramatic situation in North-Eastern Europe ;-)

[IronEmperor]

Good god, those units look gorgeous! I'm wondering what the armored pope-looking captain guy is.

[PFC_Church]

Woooow, I may need to use my good computer for this one hahaha badass good job

[Radiso-FIN]

Nice preview and nice looking units, very good job there! +rep

[RollingWave]

in terms of unit slots to clear, some obvious once.

obvious fantasy units (hashhasim x 2 , battlefield assassins, sherwood archers, camel gunners )

not fantasy but very debatable units (some remaining Irish units, Gwent raiders, Saxon units etc..)

very repetitive units (a lot of Northern Euro and Southern Euro units are essentially the same but use two slot, few would give a damn if they were 1 unit. namely, a lot of levy / militia units are like that, and also siege units too.)

Mercenary unit of the same thing : a lot of those unit already have mercenary_unit tag in the game anyway, u can put normal units into both recruitment pool and mercenary pool (at different price, but upkeep will be same) . the only downside is you must have the same upkeep and no Mercenary of x name.

Extremely late units : let's note this, there are some units that's going to be avalible in like the last 30 turns of a 400+ turn game (more like 900 for 2typ). the odds of players using them is what... 1 out of every 1000 games played?

[PerXX]

obvious fantasy units (hashhasim x 2 , battlefield assassins, sherwood archers, camel gunners )

What's wrong with Camel Gunners? Except that they are "slightly" outside the timeframe of the game

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Fedual]

Can you upload a video of gameplay with the new units aswell? i would like to see how the animations work with the new models

it looks very very impressive, but a video would be a nice addition

[Kahvipannu]

Can you upload a video of gameplay with the new units aswell? i would like to see how the animations work with the new models

it looks very very impressive, but a video would be a nice addition

They are quite close to vanilla units, ofcourse some of the parts are brand new, and the vanilla parts have been edited, and it varies from unit to unit, but they performs similar way as old units with current anims of SS.

If it is the little weirdnesses you see in those pics, like elbows, and the horse legs, they have been fixed. Some of those pics are a bit older.