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Thread: Troop size - balancing issues EDIT: AI funding?

  1. #1
    Vangar's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Troop size - balancing issues EDIT: AI funding?

    During my carthage campaign with RTR 7 1.3 with the reduced/changed troop sizes I discovered some issues with rome. On "Large" unit settings the AI at least seems to have Triarii regiments which consist of 33 men. Even for an elite unit 33 is too few as they get constantly steamrolled during battles. Carthage's sacred band is still a 62 men unit so the same should apply to triarii.

    Likewise, I understand why phalangites have more men than regular units, though I'm afraid these units seem to be too powerful, especially against the AI.
    Last edited by Vangar; January 26, 2013 at 03:26 AM. Reason: Update

  2. #2

    Default Re: Troop size - balancing issues

    The unit sizes have been changed to simulate troop numbers more accurate. Play on maximum unit size for the squads.
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    demagogos nicator's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Troop size - balancing issues

    I think unit sizes are great as they are now only unit recruitment costs and upkeeps should be balanced accordingly. For example one unit of phalangitai should costs twice that much as same tier unit of hoplitai, this could prevent Ai and players to spam pezhetaeroi and other numerous units. Other possibility is to increase the recruitment times of the phalangitai.

    As rome you will get better after the marian reforms (one marian cohors = 240 men). Triary should serve only as a last reserve in battle when any other options to win the battle have failed. Also unlike the sacred band you could recruit them how much you want without any restriction except price.

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    Antiokhos Euergetes's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Troop size - balancing issues

    The Jury is out on whether you should recruit the Sacred band anyway...after all they were destroyed in 310!

  5. #5

    Default Re: Troop size - balancing issues

    Quote Originally Posted by demagogos nicator View Post
    I think unit sizes are great as they are now only unit recruitment costs and upkeeps should be balanced accordingly. For example one unit of phalangitai should costs twice that much as same tier unit of hoplitai, this could prevent Ai and players to spam pezhetaeroi and other numerous units. Other possibility is to increase the recruitment times of the phalangitai.

    As rome you will get better after the marian reforms (one marian cohors = 240 men). Triary should serve only as a last reserve in battle when any other options to win the battle have failed. Also unlike the sacred band you could recruit them how much you want without any restriction except price.

    Yeah, i wanted to raise the upkeep, but i think we didnt get to implement it, some things remain to be fixed.
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  6. #6
    Vangar's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Troop size - balancing issues

    I see the point, though maximum unit size will slow down my machine too much, unfortunately. Plus, maybe the AI can be tweaked somehow since it relies heavily on Triarii, even in desperate situations and those 33 men squads are a rather large waste of money.

    As for the sacred band, since it takes 40 turns to recruit it you cannot "recruit" them really. Although historically inaccurate, I think carthage should have some kind of citizen unit recruitable and since RTR is a alternate take on reality anyway it's okay that there are those three sacred band units you start with. I don't use them overseas anyway, they just guard the homelands

    Btw, when we are talking money: Does the AI have a economy at all or do they have unlimited funds per script?

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    Vangar's Avatar Tiro
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    Default Re: Troop size - balancing issues

    I'm sorry to push this thread to renew a question of mine, but:

    My carthage campaign looks good. I have defeated at least 5 legions of the roman republic and take their towns and cities of south and central italy, in a decade or so I'll be laying siege to rome itself. Their troops are decimated and they face war both on my front and to the north against the arverni and norici, a war that is indeed a hot one as my spies and diplomats show that provinces actually are being occupied and lost up there. So, while rome only holds northern and central italy and half of their city ports are blocked and their financial ranking is significantly lower than mine they suddenly managed to recruit all mercenaries of italy in one turn, having a full stack of more powerful troops than their own. And keep in mind that RTR raises mercenaries cost to ~12000 per unit.

    I really like that they hire mercenaries as a last resort strategy, though I have to ask: Do the AI peoples actually have unlimited funds available?

  8. #8
    Maurits's Avatar ЯTR
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    Default Re: Troop size - balancing issues EDIT: AI funding?

    Not really. There is a support script, but that only kicks in when they go heavily below zero. It should not give them so much as to be able to recruit troops for 100.000 denarii's

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  9. #9
    demagogos nicator's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Troop size - balancing issues EDIT: AI funding?

    I have just won custom battle with Antigonids against Rome without loosing a flower. I gave the Roman a full consular army (two roman legions +two italic legions supported with some velites and funditores, + two units of Etruscan hoplomachoi, as cavalry 1 unit of Equites and one of Etruscan cavalry) agains my army composing of 7 units of phalangites (both pezhetairoi and misthophoroi pezoi), 2 units of Thureophoroi, 2 units of Thorakitai, 2 units of Thracian mercanery swordsmen, one units of peltasts and two units of greek archers. As cavalry I had only one unit of Hippeis and unit of Thracian mercanery cavalry. As you can see I did not have any elite units in my army and both armies had the same numbers of units (in fact my army was twice as large as roman because of the new unit size) and I won without any effort. Romans just came attacked my phalanx from the front and raut after a while.

    I do not think that this is right. I do really like the idea of making unit size as close to historical reality as possible but we must consider that this is game not a historical reality and sometimes a historical accuracy come to the conflict with gameplay balance. I think in order to keep the game to resemble real battle as close as posible there have to be a be a compromise between the game play balance and historical accuracy. Too big differences between the core units of various factions are something that brakes the balance.

    I do know that although, the size of roman maniples was historicaly significantly smaller than the size of basic phalanx unit (have forgoten how it was called), the Romans have much more manpower than succesor states and could afford to bring much more warriors on the field. However, game does not allow this. In game the full stack is limited to units and when the AIs able to afford it it will field a full stack of units does not matter how accurate it is. Therefore I think that unit size of the roman units should be rebalanced. I know that 120 man was standard size of hastati or triari polybian maniple but we have to underestand that in reallity units only rearly have standard size, the same go to the units in game if you take your legions with you to the campain you will allways loose men and if you do not want to ship your units back to Italy to retrain you will have to fight with the man you have. Therefore I do not think that historicly accurate full size of the unit is not that accurate as the real size hostoricaly as well as in game vary.

    Do not want to offend just present my gameplay experience and explain my new attitude to the unit size of the roman units and differences bettven the unit size of various units

  10. #10
    Caligula Caesar's Avatar Horse Lord
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    Default Re: Troop size - balancing issues EDIT: AI funding?

    That is how I see it too. But it has been a while since I played a campaign, so I'm sure others will know better...
    RTR-VII Team Leader and Leader of Fortuna Orbis, an RTR Submod

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    Maurits's Avatar ЯTR
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    Default Re: Troop size - balancing issues EDIT: AI funding?

    Thanks for these comments guys, we'll consider this and might want to revert to the old situation.

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  12. #12
    Mausolos of Caria's Avatar Royal Satrap
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    Default Re: Troop size - balancing issues EDIT: AI funding?

    I haven't fought a battle with phalangites in a while, who seem to be the main problem. I'll try to do one on the weekend in my new Pergamon campaign, or play a pitched custom battle and then report my opinion. When I fought with Pergamon against other Greeks and in a reenactment of the battle of Delphi ( Aitolian League against Celts) I did not notice any major problems with the unit sizes.
    "Pompeius, after having finished the war against Mithridates, when he went to call at the house of Poseidonios, the famous teacher of philosophy, forbade the lictor to knock at the door, as was the usual custom, and he, to whom both the eastern and the western world had yielded submission, ordered the fasces to be lowered before the door of science."

    Pliny the Elder, Naturalis Historia, 7, 112

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    demagogos nicator's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Troop size - balancing issues EDIT: AI funding?

    In my opinion, there is no need to completly revert to the old situation. There are major problems only in battles where premarian legionaries have to fight phalangitse (there is the biggest numerical gap: 120 men against 240 per unit and only 60 versus 240 for triarii, an average Macedonian full stack having 3 times more men than average roman one). From my other tests it seems that Romans performance against barbarians (Celtiberians) is quite good and it seems that barbarian could also defeat succesor armies without problem at lest when fighting in the forested terrain. New cavalry unit sizse seems to work well gameplaywise.

  14. #14
    Maurits's Avatar ЯTR
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    Default Re: Troop size - balancing issues EDIT: AI funding?

    So actually just the phalangites nees to be scaled down, is that what you think?

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  15. #15
    Mausolos of Caria's Avatar Royal Satrap
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    Default Re: Troop size - balancing issues EDIT: AI funding?

    Yes that seems to be the case, but I'll try to make further tests, if you want to wait a few days
    "Pompeius, after having finished the war against Mithridates, when he went to call at the house of Poseidonios, the famous teacher of philosophy, forbade the lictor to knock at the door, as was the usual custom, and he, to whom both the eastern and the western world had yielded submission, ordered the fasces to be lowered before the door of science."

    Pliny the Elder, Naturalis Historia, 7, 112

  16. #16

    Default Re: Troop size - balancing issues EDIT: AI funding?

    I for one am pretty happy with the new unit sizes. Also, I have yet to see the computer to stack 7 phalanx units. I agree that pezhetairoi are strong (I myself consider more than 4 in a stack cheating), but they are supposed to be. Not to mention that winning the battle of Heraklea against the Romans is very very hard.

    Maybe the fact that I'm playing on Hard and the game is balanced for Medium affects my impressions. Be as it may, I wouldn't recommend reducing the phalanx number below 200 (huge unit size), if that.

    I guess I'll have to start a Roman campaign for some testing. And I just got to 210 BC with the Antigonids...
    Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana...

  17. #17
    Maurits's Avatar ЯTR
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    Default Re: Troop size - balancing issues EDIT: AI funding?

    210 BC is quite far into the campaign imo, due to the 4tpy script that means 280 played turns

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  18. #18

    Default Re: Troop size - balancing issues EDIT: AI funding?

    Yep. Been making saves every 5 years, so when I finally give it up, or when the hotfix comes out, I'll be able to make a detailed report.

    By the way, when does the LET kick in? I conquered everything west of the Adriatic sea and south of the Danube (up to Pannonia) plus Sicily and Southern and Central Italy (up to and including Campania). My income dropped when I started the invasion of Magna Graecia and Sicily, even though I was adding more regions to the kingdom.

    Also, I expected to be able to recruit Tarentine pezhetairoi and cavalry with the Antigonids, just as with the Aiakids. It would've been nice, but oh well...
    Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana...

  19. #19
    Caligula Caesar's Avatar Horse Lord
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    Default Re: Troop size - balancing issues EDIT: AI funding?

    My view is the following:

    -Phalangites should not be the largest units. Well, they can be in the highest brackets, but they should have many peers there, which they don't.

    -Rome's armies should not be tiny.

    If the phalangites are lowered to the level of the other units, then there will be no units in the top bracket, which is just a waste.

    -> Non-phalangites should be bumped up a bracket!

    Then all the tiny unit sizes will be fixed, and the absurdity of there being double the amount of phalangites as there are Romans or hoplites...

    P.S. Did I not say this would happen?
    RTR-VII Team Leader and Leader of Fortuna Orbis, an RTR Submod

    "History has only one concern and aim, and that is the useful; which again has one single source, and that is truth." -Lucian of Samosata

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  20. #20

    Default Re: Troop size - balancing issues EDIT: AI funding?

    How about the following (on huge):

    Phalangites and heavy infantry (old style hoplites, thorakitai, some barabrian infantry when appropriate) at 200,
    elite heavy infantry(Romans, ambacti, royal agema) and javelin skirmishers at 160,
    light infantry (barbarian spearmen/swordsmen, ekdromoi type spearmen, thureophoroi) at 240,
    light cavalry at 80 and heavy at 60,
    ranged units at 120/80 (archers/slingers)

    I generally liked the smaller numbers. In RS II, for example, you have the roman cohorts at 200, which I think is a bit much given their superior stats. The phalangitai in RS II were OK at 240, but their stats were not that great, so that's why I think keeping their stat balance as it is and reducing the number to 200 might work for the best.
    Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana...

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