TRUE SAMURAI final

[Fra70]

Ty Hazbones ...i will "try" to add many things once the whole idea is proven good after some playtesting ( that i hope we can start at mid week ) and of course i will ask you many things since you are by far a better modder than me .

ive also changed the HERO units into hatamoto units . Stats were of course lowered a bit but they are recruitable much earlier

One important point is talking about BATTLES ...how have to be a samurai battle ? the TW sistem is much to perform shocking manouvers to rout the enemy and it is perfect for Roman ages battles but i think that is not totally accurate for samurai battles . I want that my battle is a slow display of tactical mastery and fighting skills ... a bit of a Sumo fighting ...BUT i want to avoid big attriction battles ( like it happen in the radious mod ) ...the keys i hope will solve the problems are :

1) higher melee defence values
2) only a SLIGHT morale improvement
3) slight better armours for elite soldiers
4) quite little units , with less ranks

it will work ? some playtesting im doing are good ...we will see what you think

[=Vastator=]

Si si ero io eheheh

ovviamente ti chiedo il permesso di usare il tuo stupendo mod ( se saro' capace di implementarlo , sono ancora arrugginito con Shogun 2 ..medieval2 lo moddavo a occhi chiusi ormai , credo cmq sia solo questione di tempo)

Meanwhile today ive implemented the new units and everything work fine

Permesso accordato, anche se prima di implementarlo (è una cosa da niente, anzi, in teoria dovrebbe funzionare anche se non si fanno interventi specifici, dato che il mod è compatibile con quasi tutti gli altri mod così com'è) ti chiedo di aspettare un po, dato che ci sto ancora lavorando; per ora concentrati sul gameplay.

What kind of ashigarus are you going to include? I think it would be a good idea to give the high level ashigarus higher quality armor pieces, like kabutos, and not using jingasa like these:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/28041196@N00/5170536959/
http://www.the-kura.com/items/603979/en1store.html

[Fra70]

Si certo inseriro' il tuo mod solo quando tutto il resto funziona , grazie.

right now ive implemented 2 other level of ashigaru , an early levy ashigaru and late ashigaru ... they will look different from each other , i plan to review all the models that are present in both Shogun and the DLCs ( Genpei and FOTS ) to truy to rappresent them in the most correct and historical way .

Im pretty sure that the hara-ate was still widely used by ashigarus until 1560 ( even if in general japanese paintings rappresent units in a more archaic looking than modern ones ) while the late ashigaru ( the middle one is the standard ashigaru from the game even if im thinking to remove the spear wall ability ) should wear the most close thing to a sendai-do or an hotoke-do ...there are so many models in the game to play with

I also think that the jingasa is a fast way to identify ashigarus on the battlefield

[[G-Shock]]

PM for you, Fra.

[Fra70]

Meanwhile .... Ive decided to leave 1 agent for each category ... they will rappresent the efforts of a clan in some fields ( Religion , intelligence , police ) and its quite realistic ... 1 agent will not cost much on the long run and will not permit to exploit much the AI weakness . Now it will be impossible to spam them to conquer cities or bribe armies or kill important characters .

Basically the Ninja will rappresent your intelligence ( Sun Tzu docet )
The Monk/missionary will rappresent your efforts to convert/keep calm the population
The Metsuke rappresent your best men to keep order ( with some intelligence and diplomatic affairs )

I think is a good compromise and realistic too

[Fra70]

Today i added new cost values for units ( using a my algoritm ) and ive improved and changed a bit the garrison troops . Now ive only to work on the initial deployment of troops and we can start playtesting

[[G-Shock]]

Today i added new cost values for units ( using a my algoritm ) and ive improved and changed a bit the garrison troops . Now ive only to work on the initial deployment of troops and we can start playtesting

Are you going to implement 1-month turnation?

[Fra70]

Im weighting the options ... im inclined to make 8 turns year and making the AI more conservative ,,,however i will work on that AFTER the whole mod concept is proven right with playtesting , another solution is to expand start date and maybe add a whole new branch of units ( i dont know why noone have not yet made a mod that actually encompass Genpei + Shogun + FOTS ( adding some technology , some buildings and some recruiting specification its not a so impossibile task ) ...of course adding the FOTS at the end of Shogun 2 require a bit of a leap of faith but some "modern"units can be inserted starting from end of XVII century without falling in the sci-fi category )

I like the idea to play like a Daimyo that slowly expand while building a strong and veteran army to play his cards from 1570 onward ( keep in mind that while i play the campaign i NEVER reload from the save game if something goes wrong .... )

[GnaReffotsirk]

I say go for 24 turns per year.

[Pachinko]

Look at this its a board games... the rules are very realistic i believe. http://www.jimwallman.org.uk/wargame/KTY.pdf

[Fra70]

Ty Pachinkoi ...every good read give material to think about realism .

Meanwhile ive added some things totally necessary to me

A) Ive slow down units a bit ...otherwise the tactical aspect is totally lost ( i will see if i will have to slow them more )

B) ive made the "NATION DIVIDE" a less harsh

C) ive increased combat fatigue ...now i hope will be essential to keep some unit fresh , adding more tactical deep .

Things to do
1) adjusting starting forces for every clan ( ive to change some kind of troops and their numbers )

Things i will see to be able to do before or after playtesting
1) changing Campaign starting date and number of turns/year
2) create new models for new units using what already exist ( i did that in MW2 i will see if its possible to do it here ) ,,,i plan to do some province exclusive units ( still totally realistic , in books there are many useful hints ) avaiables only when you conquer their province .
3) dig more into datas to tweak more the game
4) implementing VUS mod that VASTATOR gave me right to use .

[[G-Shock]]

Keep the Shock troops on a much smaller size than Bulk troops (1 to 5) and you can make them move a lot faster and with much less tight formation. The difficulties of combat manouvers lies in the unit size. Smaller units are much easier to handle and manouver in formation than larger ones.

The game manual posted by Pachi seems very credible and could be used as input.

[Fra70]

some considerations

1) the mod already have smaller units ...everything is in the range between 40 and 100 soldiers
2) if you put to fight 40 samurai against 200 ashigaru they will win ...but it will take time and for the price they have ( three times more ) they can be sandwitched , abused and everything else . That is what my playtesting until now suggest . Samurai units in my mod take ages to be built (and are capped ) BUT they range between 40-60 men ...and they fight against ashigaru units that vary between the 80 and the 100 men . In that way only very trained and late kinds of ashigaru troops can face samurai units without being trolled away with ease .

[[G-Shock]]

some considerations

1) the mod already have smaller units ...everything is in the range between 40 and 100 soldiers

Let's forget for the moment the potential solution of unit capping and specific buildings with specific units only to be produced (in long-term production queues). This logic solves the number of shock unit vs bulk unit ratio.

The number of men inside a unit is ALSO important it's the most difficult thing to build in the unit stats.
To begin with, if Darth and Akaie have altered the maximum number of men in units then so can you but there's problems with stacking and pathing. 100 soldiers are a good max (modern "company" size is 120) and an easy calculation to make but then, 100 to 20 is a more appropriate ratio (5 to 1).

2) if you put to fight 40 samurai against 200 ashigaru they will win ...but it will take time and for the price they have ( three times more ) they can be sandwitched , abused and everything else . That is what my playtesting until now suggest . Samurai units in my mod take ages to be built (and are capped ) BUT they range between 40-60 men ...and they fight against ashigaru units that vary between the 80 and the 100 men . In that way only very trained and late kinds of ashigaru troops can face samurai units without being trolled away with ease .

It should in theory work the other way around.
To begin with, you said Bulk=100 men. If you design units in different manpower then you are SURE to make mistakes and unbalance so it's 40 vs 100 and I said better 25 vs 100. If you imagine a 1 unit vs 1 unit combat the shock would always prevail albeit the fatigue would render them pretty useless until recovered.

If you are going for realism and historicity, the bulk cost more than the shock for a set of reasons: the superior manpower of bulk means more equipment and supply expenses to sustain, not to mention the weight of a bulk unit on the economy. Each Shock is a pro whose labor force is ZERO in GDP while each Bulk is a worker, farmer or trader that produces and is taxed.
Shock comes with his own weapons and armor... heirlooms. Bulk must be equipped and trained. It is the EXACT opposite then. Bulk should cost a lot more and be uncapped with long term production times and heavier upkeep. Shock should be a lot faster (still long times), less upkeep and less expense.

Whether or not you decide for capping the Shock troops, their vastly inferior numbers guarantee they will be defeated in battle consistently without the bigger Bulk numbers. This means there's no real need for capping. An army of sole shock in 20 units is 500 men. An army of sole bulk is 2000 men. The shock without them have no chance (missiles, rearcharges and fatigue will have them dead to the last man during the rout & pursuit). Long times make absolutely sure battles are DECISIVE the way it was (and you like). If you lose a battle you won't easily have another chance.

Terminology: Samurai is but one class of SHOCK warriors. Ashigaru is but one class of BULK warriors.
Build the backbone of the mod with easy numbers. 25, 100. Same unit stats inside and work your way up in the balance remembering there's dozens of troop types at disposal.
To me all shock are the same value and all bulk are the same value. The only difference should be morale and anti-cav factors (yari only). AOR/ZOR would make sure the army is well colored and differentiated in troop types and weapons but strategy has nothing to do with "this has naginata so it fights better than this who has no-dachi". That's arcade, not simulation.

Bonus for leadership should be important. Bonus for equipment, attendants and traits a bit less but in either case these bonuses should be extremly low, almost insignificant. The more you sway from the original setup in stats the harder it is to find a realistic purpose against factors that CANT be altered.

[Fra70]

First thank you to put an interesting discussion ...

first thing is to understand how was the roles of ashigarus in battle ...reports of battles dont talk about them ( and nor even paintings ) , aven historian change ideas from book to book and they are smart to use always different words to make things even more clumsy.
My idea is that a Samurai unit always did charge another Samurai unit with ashigaru pikes in support of them and ranged weapons used more in a tactical way . So actually we have ALWAYS shock troops against shock troops while the ashigaru/attendants where supporting the action . Of course there is NO WAY to implement that honor/caste acting in TW battles BUT i can do the best to provide that SOMETHING similar will happen . With my mod i want that a samurai army rout easily an ashigaru one and that ashigarus are ( until the arrive of very late ashigaru units and matchlocks ) relegated to a support role ( but you need to have them because you need to add BULK to capped samurai units ! ) .
Also dont forget that a 20 man samurai units would be totally annihilated by a 100 men matchlocks volley .

I totally agree on your cost/effectiveness part , its my point also

[[G-Shock]]

With my mod i want that a samurai army rout easily an ashigaru one and that ashigarus are ( until the arrive of very late ashigaru units and matchlocks ) relegated to a support role ( but you need to have them because you need to add BULK to capped samurai units ! ) .
Also dont forget that a 20 man samurai units would be totally annihilated by a 100 men matchlocks volley .

I totally agree on your cost/effectiveness part , its my point also

A 20 man samurai unit will make a slaughter of those 100 man ashigaru even in the late period. It's not that the late ashigaru were better in combat because of their date of birth. The late ashigaru were long time campaigners (hence experienced) with expertise in combat and weaponry just like the samurai but without the samurai caste title (and psychology). Naturally, against these, the samurai would not perform so well but they would still win due to superior arms and skill but just slightly.

I am not sure there's the real need for a cap with the shock units. Figuring you could do a 6 month recruitment period and a 50% loss autodisband rate (with very low replenish rates) I don't think there will EVER be an unbalanced army. When considering what is written above, if you build fatigue as an important factor in the battlefield, a fresh bulk unit will rout a tired samurai unit even in one on one combat. Many shock units will be destroyed in combat and this with unit capping is a BIG choice.
Factor 20 different shock units and 50 bulk units, you can assign some to specific buildings, some others to specific buildings which are, in turn, available only with specific technologies. Add to this ZOR/AOR and you see... there's no strict need for capping shock troops.

With what I personally have in mind, 6 months to recruit a samurai unit and 5 years to upgrade a castle (from lev 2 to lev 3) the player needs to choose whether to RISK losing everything or to go for the quicker (example, 3 months and no castle requirement) bulk unit. Front line castles will hardly ever risk producing shock units.

In relation with how the ashi and sam worked together, the sam units were mixed within the ashi lines. They worked as mixed units or the sam were behind the ashi spears during the charge and followed shortly after the clash to enter the ranks.

20 men would be annhilated by a 100 man matchlock volley. It is not a coincidence the matchlock and then the rifle would become the weapon that mastered the field, which also helped the superior ashigaru numbers to dominate the battlefield. It is within the player's strategy to protect the samurai. Shooting the ranged units to protect the melee units IS strategy as well. Matchlock is unreliable, fails with rain. Also... it doesn't have the range of a samurai bow. Strategy, strategy, strategy.

[Fra70]

My goal is to make your units last ... you have to care about your few best units , i hate when in many mods you have to build an army after another . In Japan the life was by FAR longer than in the western world and a samurai with attendants should never suffer attriction ( and they were VERY careful with supplies and weather ) . with 8 turns/year winter will be already quite punishing ( for ashigaru expecially ) if you choose wrong times . when ive won my campaigns at Very hard or even at hard i did neve had a unit with more than 2 of experience almost until 1580 !!

Regarding the ashigarus ( in my opinion of course ) there were better not only because of experience ( i think there was alot more rotation between ashigaru troops than samurai ones ) but because Daimyos started to care more about them and they were trained and equipped better . A farmer didnt have the time to pratice all day with weapons and if we passed from armies of 15,000 to armies of 80,000 ( even if the real combat force was only the 20% of that ) was because the insertion of "trained" ashigaru troops . I totally agree that they will never be a match for a samurai unit ...but they will play a greater role .

[Fra70]

Meanwhile ...ive skipped the idea to add province only recrutable units ..simply there is not enough historical reference to make something like that

BUT ive decided to add almost 5 new and historical units ( plus the 2 already added ):

1) Nanban armour's Samurai ( historically japan obtained and used some western style armors . and they could have easily produced them ) this "what if" unit ( but 100 times more historical than battle ninjas and screaming nuns ) will produce a samurai unit in half time even if in limited number ( and with a bit lower skills ) , a nice add to the limited samurai pool of each daimyo . Of course the armour will be only partially western style huh ...

2) Organized shock troops , historically Li Naomasa (similar to Yamagata Masakage and his red cavalry ) did train troops to shock enemy formations with a fierce attitude and apparence , they were also very trained troops . Theorically and very realistically every Daimyo could have done the same . This unit will have a bigger charge value that the others and they will cause fear ( maybe ...ive to test it to not make them too powerful ) .

3) MAtchlock Garrisons ... Every siege from 1570 onward show the presence of many matchlock units on the ramparts ..time to add some of them in the basic garrisons

4) A proper IKKO_IKKI unit ... ordinary ashigarus dont rappresent well them . They had very different weapons .... i think i will opt for a spear .

5) A Nagae Yari Samurai ... in Shogun the samurai hold only the short sized yari .... but in paints (and movies ) we see them holding long spears too ....

6) Levy Ashigaru ... the first version , the transition between armed peasants and reliable militia ... armed with spears and very lightly equipped . ( the will disappear ad the game goes on )

7) Late Ashigaru ...almost a professional soldier ... a reliable big unit , well protected and trained ( still cant stand a samurai unit 1 to 1 )

tomorrow i will sta

[Berossus]

Dont forget that arrows should auto-kill anything they hit, as will the swords and likely the spears.
Also dont forget that soldiers might need to take a during the battle, and that they will need to eat at least once a day so you will need to manufacture snacks.


What im trying to say is, dont put realism over playability.
By reading through all the changes, i fear that the Ai will have no idea what to do and the playability might suffer.
6 month recruiting for a 20 man samurai unit that autodisbands when falling below 50% after slaying a unit of 100 ashigaru feels like... i dont know, over the top simulating.

[Fra70]

Who said that ??

Samurai are 60 men units with limited attriction ....and no autodisbanding .... those were the suggestion of G-Shock and not mine .

the 6 turns is just a bit above the 2 standard turns since we passed from 4 turns/year to 8 turns/year ...its just like ive passed from 2 to 3 turns to build them in vanilla Shogun 2 .

Btw the idea of playability can change alot regarding the age ot personality of the user too ... im an old grumpy grognard while another user can be a 15 years old with other needs . I do the mod for mainly myself and others very grumpy grognards