The size of the units according to the XVIII century "military organization".

[p.jakub88]

I. Introduction.

When Empire: Total War was released as a game in 2009, there were (and still are) a lot of questions regarding the historical size of infantry/cavalry units in the XVIII century period.

I would like to write a short resource about the "military system" during the XVIII century.

This informations could be useful for modding purposes (gameplay mods, overhauls, new units, etc).

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II. The division of the unit size in the army - during the Empire: Total War Grand Campaign period (1700 - 1799).

Commonly encountered military term is a "company" ---> from 60 to 110 men, or from 60 to 140 men in the Napoleonic period (after the French revolution).

The bigger unit than a company, is titled as a "battalion", which consists of few companies (3 or 4) ---> about 400 men (line infantry battalions).

The "regiment" consists of few battalions ---> from 200 men to even 2000 (depends of the country).

Horse cavalry units are of course smaller than infantry (the same size as in default ETW).

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III. How to put those informations inside the Empire: Total War land battles.

The easiest way, is to set the unit size in graphic options to Large ---> so 120 men line infantry unit, 60 men grenadier and light infantry unit, from 45 to 60 men cavalry units.

In Empire: Total War (in default Grand Campaign and RTI), the units are a part of regiments (of foot, horse, etc).

If you would like to have a "regiment size unit", instead of smaller "company size", you will need to edit the "units_stats_land_tables" in patch.pack file using Pack File Manager or DB Editor.

Of course, you could set the size for the same units types independently (i.e Spanish line infantry 120, British line infantry 100, etc).

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IV. Summary.

Any feedback will be appreciated!

Those informations, were taken from Polish Wikipedia Free Encyclopedia.

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[wangrin]

French infantry organisation during the Seven Years War and before the 1763 reform :

French regiments organisation :
- regiments were composed of 1 to 4 batalions ;
- batalions were composed of 16 fusiliers companies end 1 grenadier company untill august 1757, 17 fusiliers companies and 1 grenadier company after ;
- fusilier companies were composed of 2 officers and 40 men (2 "sergents", 3 "caporaux", 3 "anspessades" (elite soldiers), 1 drummer and 31 fusiliers) ;
- grenadiers company sere composed od 3 officers and 45 men (2 "sergents", 3 "corporaux", 3 "anspessades", 1 drummer, 36 grenadiers) ;

Swiss regiments organisation :
- 10 swiss regiments (1758)
- swiss regiments were composed of 2 batalions ;
- batalions were composed of 6 companies ;
- companies were composed of 120 men and officers (1 capitaine, 1 capitaine lieutenant, 1 lieutenant, 1 sous-lieutenant, 1 enseigne, 3 sergents, 1 fourrier, 1 porte enseigne, 1 capitaine d'arme, 1 prévôt, 4 caporaux, 4 ansepessades, 100 fusiliers (fifers and drummers included)).

German regiments organisation :
- 12 german regiments (1756)
Before 1760
- german regiments were composed of 1 to 3 batalions ;
- batalions were composed of 6 companies ;
- in 1756,companies were composed of 6 officers ("1 capitaine, 1 capitaine en second, 1 premier lieutenant, 2 lieutenants et 1 lieutenant en second") and 85 men ("3 sergents, 1 fourrier, 2 capitaines d'armes, 1 fourrier-schutz, 3 caporaux, 1 charpentier de profession, 2 tambours, 6 ansepessades, 6 grenadiers et 61 fusiliers").
After 1760
- german regiments were composed of 3 batalions ;
- batalions were composed od 9 fusiliers companies ans 1 grenadier companies ;
- fusilier companies were composed of 3 officers and 79 men ;
- grenadier companies were composed od 3 officers and 52 men ;

Irish and Scottish infantry :
- irish and scottish regiments were composed of 1 batalion ;
- batalion was composed of 12 fusilier companies and 1 grenadier compnay ;
- fusilier companies were composed of 4 officers and 55 men ;
- grenadier companies were composed of 4 officers and 45 men ;

Sources :
COMPOSITION AND ORGANIZATION OF THE FRENCH INFANTRY REGIMENTS
Variations de l'effectif de l'infanterie française (de 1740 à 1775)

[Reptile]

Hi
Check also this site http://www.kronoskaf.com/syw/index.php?title=Main_Page

[p.jakub88]

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This tutorial is about the size of the smallest "operational unit" in XVIII army ---> a company (from 60 to 110 men).

It is not about the "organization of army" in XVIII century (!!).

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Talking about history is related to the Historical Research Center:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=500

In Empire: Total War, the unit size is related to a company --> not to the battalion or regiment!

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[capt_falcone]

Flank companies (grenadiers and light infantry) were the same size as the center companies (fusiliers, musketeers, etc). And companies were under 100 men, I've seen numbers anywhere from 40 to 80. So all grenadier, line infantry, and light infantry units in the game should be the same size and be between 40 and 80 men if you want to accurately represent the smallest independent combat units on the battlefield.

The problem with setting army structure up like this though is that it would take an entire stack to field one regiment. So battles would only be one regiment vs one regiment (<1000 men vs <1000 men). This makes realistic large scale battle (many regiments vs many regiments) impossible.

Note: All these numbers are averages and approximations. Actual numbers varied from regiment, year, and nation.

[p.jakub88]

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Thanks for your reply capt_falcone!

This informations were very helpful for me.

I understand your point of view and my opinion is the same, but my Laptop RAM would not "withstand" thousand of troops in battle for sure and this would be unplayable - two units: 2 x 1000 men (how to command an unit 10 times bigger than the vanilla one?).

I know, that there were slightly difference between countries and years.

I 'm using Large unit size option in ETW --> so light infantry and grenadiers are ca. 60 men per unit.

Line infantry are 120 men per unit, when using this Large unit size setting.

Of course, we could edit the number of men per unit independently.

We could perhaps edit the vanilla "stack" --> allow more units to be present in land battle.

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[wangrin]

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This tutorial is about the size of the smallest "operational unit" in XVIII army ---> a company ( from 60 to 110 men ).

It is not about the "organization of army" in XVIII century (!!).

===========================================================================================================================

Talking about history is related to the Historical Research Center:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=500

In Empire: Total War, the unit size is related to a company --> not to the battalion or regiment!

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The unit size is tied to military organisation.
I think it's not a bad idea to give informations about context.
Then, my post main purpose was to give french fusilier and, particularly, grenadier size as you request it in your first post.

In ETW, would you fix company size only considering their historical size without considering batalion size.
For exemple, French fusilier companies were very small (40 men), but batalions were 685 men strong.
Prussian musketeer companies were approximatively 140 men strong, but batalions were only 702 men strong.

So, due to the 20 unit limit (battle), the unit size in ETW should be a compromize between historical companies size and batalion size.

[p.jakub88]

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Everyone could modify the size of ETW units on his own --> so no limitations in that.

I only said, that i was interested in the smallest organization unit in army --> company.

We could of course make a single unit consisted of 1000 men (whole regiment) or 400 men (battalion = few companies).

But commanding a single unit with such big size, would be very hard in the heat of the battle.

This will make BAI extremely stupid and vulnerable (musket fire, artillery fire, grenades, etc).

The cavalry would be obsolete: 45 / 60 men vs 1000 men.....

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[wangrin]

I think that, in ETW, unit size should be around 100 men.
This size is closer from company than battalion.

Introducing different unit sizes depending from countries will give some "salt" in battle.
But, the problem is to implement those differences between countries.
Example : how to manage french and prussian ?
French companies were 40 men strong, compare to 140 men strong Prussian companies.
This throw off balance.

So, unit size in a compromize between historical accuracy and gameplay.

[capt_falcone]

We could perhaps edit the vanilla "stack" --> allow more units to be present in land battle.[/B]

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If only that were possible, it would make things so much easier. Or if their was a way to modify the formation of line units. Make a single unit 240 strong but put gaps in between 60 man groups to make it look like 4 separate companies that are near each other. But again this is something hard coded in so it's not possible.

[matc83]

there is a way to modify the amount of units that can be in single army, it involves editing the savegame file using an ESF editor, which means it most likely wouldnt work for MP, theres a tutorial on it, i think it could be possible to modify the startpos file to make a workaround, but i dont know how that would go over with MP if it was possible
i do realize noone has posted on this thread in almost 2 years but i saw it and thought i would in the hopes of helping someone

[JaM]

From gaming perspective i think only usable scale is battalion scale or Regimental scale, where single unit represent battalion or regiment. Battalions were always considered as the smallest maneuvering unit.

Because of game limitations (like maximum number of men to form a square is 415) you have to go with a scale.

After all those years playing ETW/NTW, i tried a lot of different schema's, but none of them was perfect - while you can have single unit representing a Regiment, that makes all Grenadiers or Light infantry inacurate, because they were company size.

Therefore to me, is the best mixed scale. while Line Infantry and Cavalry units represent Regiments, Grenadiers are in Battalion size, while skirmishers are mixed company size. With this you can properly model all available units in game without having issues with huge skirmishers regiments etc..

[Condottiere SOG]

Yeah. Its too bad you cannot dispense your units like as in days of old...

I wish CA would create a better command and control system...completely imitating unit strength at every level. I play my games at the battalion(infantry)400-1000personnel/regiment(cavalry)300-500personnel -> level. Its a lot of fun. Thankfully I have a computer that can dish out high numbers.