Deification of Spartan

[HorseArcher]

(this has nothing to do with the current reforms please, so please do not refer anything regarding the reforms in this proposal)


read this thread:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=57852

and this:

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=57676

and discuss whether or not he should be a Divus.

A given candidate can hold both Opifex and Divus ranks. Please consider that when voting - imb39

[Aristocrat]

I have always thought that .Spartan, or just Spartan as he calls himself now is deserving of this honour.
When Divus was first proposed I immediately thought, Sibliesz, Boris, and .Spartan...the first two being people who I knew made TWC, and the third who ran it during some troubled times.
The fact that he meets the qualifications is a plus too.
I support. Anyone who puts TWC ahead of their own personal image as Spartan did deserves some honour, so why not the highest.

[Ardeur]

I'm for it. Regardless of his rank when I saw him meandering about, I always thought he was better than you, Archer. :tooth:

(this has nothing to do with the current reforms please, so please do not refer anything regarding the reforms in this proposal)

Haven't you just done the thing you don't want us to do? By speaking of that which we don't speak of, even in telling us not to speak of it, you've actually spoken of it, and thus broken the "don't speak about this" rule. :hmmm:

[Shaun]

Yes, I support Spartan being a divus fully. After reading the interview with Spartan , I realised just how much effort, time and even money he put into TWC, so even if due to a technicality he does not qualify (im not sure though) he certianly deserves it.

[Nihil]

I see. The disbelieving silence continues to hang over this thread, and the gathering tension awaits the pin-prick that will detonate it, allowing all hell to do what it does best. So it falls to me to be the one to state the obvious?

Rhetorical question: Is this the same .Spartan who tore the community apart by banning everybody who asked questions that he didn't like, and by crushing and censoring free speech and establishing an oppressive Stalinist regime where only yes-men and boot-lickers were tolerated?

And who, in doing so, created deep divisions and hatreds in the aforementioned community, leaving scars which only now are beginning to heal, and driving away the then-core of established and loyal members?

Because if he is, I don't think encouraging that kind of behaviour by rewarding it with the Divus rank is a good idea. It might set a precedent and give the wrong idea. A bit like giving Robert Mugabe a knighthood.

Whatever about the meaningfullness of the Divus rank, it would be something of a travesty to give it to the man who, through his various outrages, has single-handedly done more damage to TWC than anybody else (with the possible exception of Crandar). It doesn't seem that long ago since people were calling for his ostrakon.

Sorry to dredge up the ugly past. It would be much easier to let bygones be bygones and let sleeping dogs lie, particularly as I will now probably be defamed and lynched by an angry mob of bloodthristy Dot-Spartanites. I certainly had no intention of bringing any of this up when Spartan returned. But now you want to canonise him? This is going too far.

The past is over, and doesn't matter anymore, and the conflicts are forgotten. But it did happen you know. No use in pretending otherwise.

[Belisarius]

I Support, being one of those "Banned people". From an objective standpoint what he supposedly did to me is not the issue, the issue and point at hand is, What did he do for the community? At the time of the Hacker attacks Spartan was up 24 hours at one point trying to fix the problems, yes we dont agree with many of the actions, but have any of us been in that Situation? Who knows what we would do in such a situation? I will not be vindictive. Can we put all the blame on one person?

Fact of the matter is, Spartan did tonns of work as admin and as staff for the modding community and in many ways made it what it is today and helped gather some mods here. Spartan was and is an asset to TWC and did for the Moddin community what Sulla did in many other areas. Archer has my full support.

[Maron]

so even if due to a technicality he does not qualify (im not sure though) he certianly deserves it.

If the current Syntagma contains the correct requirements for becoming Divus :

Divus
To achieve apotheosis, the nominee must be seconded by 3 members of the Consilium de Civitates and meet the following criteria:
Served as a Triumvir and subsequently has been a Senatorii for at least three months.
Provided exceptional service to TWC in their capacity as staff.
After at least three days of discussion, qualifying nominees shall be voted upon in the Curia for a period of one week, and a three-fourth majority is sufficient to become 'Divus'. A nominee who fails is eligible to be nominated again after a three month period.

And the compiled curia information thread is correct in its info on the timeline of TWC regarding the year 2005:

2005

Jan
Feb
Mar
Apr --- (4th Triumvirate)
May --- Sulla, Spartan (1st Consulship) : Sulla, smack
Jun
Jul
Aug --- Sulla, smack (2nd Consulship)
Sep --- Sulla, smack, Archer (5th Triumvirate) : ((Profler) (Lucius Vorenus)) Simetrical, Seleukos, MareNostrum
Oct - ((Carousel)) , Necrobrit
Nov - Justinian, The Bavarian Noble
Dec - ((Necrobrit))

It would seem that he is qualified.

I, after reading the interview, must say that I am impressed as I did not realize that he actually spent hundreds of dollars helping out mod projects.

Seeing how it appears he is qualified, I support the deification of Spartan.

-Maron

[Spartan]

I would like to thank Archer and other for there show of support and vote of confidence in nominating me for this hallowed title. If the Curia so chooses to confer this tribute on me I will feel truly honored.

Regarding Nihil's post, it does not really warrant a serious response as the ideas expressed are in fact just ideas. They have no bearing on the actual situations that transpired and are not factual in the slightest. The position taken has only one purpose and that is just simply to sow the seeds of discontent and division.

However for the sake of argument and just to illustrate how utterly absurd the comments are I'll give an example; if I had wanted a group of all "yes men" and "boot lickers" then I surely would not have had a person like tBP (the primary cause of 90% of the crap at that time) and his ilk on my staff.

I brought them on because I tried to bring ALL parts of the community together and get them to cooperate and understand each others needs and desires. That was my primary goal. Every choice I made had one final question that I always asked myself and that question was "Is this action truly good for the community in the long run?"

However people like tBP had only one cause and that was purely self interest or ego building. He and some of his friends really did not care for the modders and frankly wanted them gone from this community as well as myself for trying to get them recognized, respected and considered an integral and necessary part of this truly distinctive community that they had a very large part in building. [By the way, please note that I'm sure a couple if not nearly all of the people that were temporally suspended did not act out of self interest but genuinely felt their actions were for the community but were simply caught up in the political manipulation games that were afoot due to tBP.]

Now as an Admin I was not going to idly sit back and let such actions to go unchallenged because to do so would have an utter and complete breach of community trust and faith as an Admin. Moreover I had invested thousands of hours and money into the TWC community, so if my trying to hold the community together by temporally suspending some trouble makers in the middle of a crisis situation for trying to cause the community to disintegrate or implode on itself for the pure satisfaction of egoism then my friend please by all means you can call any good-for-nothing name your little heart desires.

[Gaius Baltar]

This may all be a moot point. If the proposed changes to the CVRIA occur within the stated time frame, there will be no Civitate vote on this issue.
I suggest that in the issue of fairness to all, that this vote be postponed until the Hex proposal is either accepted or rejected.

[Belisarius]

This may all be a moot point. If the proposed changes to the CVRIA occur within the stated time frame, there will be no Civitate vote on this issue.
I suggest that in the issue of fairness to all, that this vote be postponed until the Hex proposal is either accepted or rejected.

Seeing as Archer Proposed it, I'm sure there is some plan of action or will be. We dont know how long the reforms will take if they occur.

[HorseArcher]

Seeing as Archer Proposed it, I'm sure there is some plan of action or will be. We dont know how long the reforms will take if they occur.

the current discussion about the reforms is posted in the curia, not even in the prothalamos. Since it is not in effect whatsoever (other than being a discussion), the divus/opifex/ titles are still present.

As far as what happens with the senatorii and the rest of the titles - if - it doens't get changed by suggestions in the reform thread, it is too early too tell.

right now, decide whether to support Spartan to join the divus or not.

[Belisarius]

Agreed, whatever happens and if Spartan Passes and so on, he will join Sulla and the others wherever they go.

[Shaun]

Agreed, whatever happens and if Spartan Passes and so on, he will join Sulla and the others wherever they go.

Sulla is still active, and currently half of divus are still active, Sib Boris and Sulla, the ones not being active are Paul and the knight and GEN. If Spartan passes, then the majority of Divus will still be active.

[Spartan]

@Nihil, please accept my apologies if you feel my comments were directed at you personally as they were not meant to be taken so. Moreover I have no intention of trying to discredit you as I remember you to be an active community member. Besides I don’t play political games like some people on theses forums.

As to glossing over troubling times I make no such pretense I simply believe that given all the stuff that was transpiring at that time coupled with the hacker attacks that I did not have the luxury of pandering to political interests for whatever motives. My only concern was maintaining the continuity of community and day to day operations. That may be a perspective that most will find hard to understand but then I don’t expect that most have ever been in such positions.

Moreover as you so poignantly pointed out I presided over the worst time this community endured and it came out of it as a better, stronger and more committed community. So I like to think I was instrumental in those results. However I was not naive enough to believe that those innocents caught in the middle and who mistakenly chose to support the protagonists for what ever reasons could reconcile the situation in short order.

So again I did what I concluded to be best for the community in the long run and simply walked away. I used my medical situation as a convenient justification for the community and I told Sulla, SMACK and others to blame me for what ever was opportune if it settled any issues and focus on community care and integrity as no one person no matter how right is worth the breakup of the community. I hope you can see the extent of my devotion to this community and its well being now.

In addition many people needed time to heal and to try to fully understand all that was going on and all the political games in play by certain interests just made it even more frustrating for the average person to comprehend. That coupled with the smear campaign against me that transpired after I left and I'm sure you can also see how many arrived at improper conclusions.

Additionally on first-hand witnessing, and your references to vendetta's and such things, there are lots of facts the general community is not aware of and therefore opinions will tend to be based on perception and not the factual situation. All I can say is those who were in the know fully agreed to the decisions that were made and apparently subsequent senior admin personal have also concurred. That is all I'm at liberty to explain at the moment.

Regarding banning of several respected members of the community, I'm sorry if my memory fails me but I don’t recall them being banned for any reasonable conduct, in fact I think a couple chose to leave prior to the situations in question. Furthermore I am under the impression that I have a cordial relationship with most of the people on your list.

[Nihil]

Very well.

While it's unfortunate that we will apparently never know the full truth of what happened, I feel that you have at least answered my questions as well as you can. I realise that these were stressful times and that you were under significant pressure.

Although without further knowledge of what really went on - and in view of the existence of some hinted-at mysteries which may never come to light - it's impossible to draw any fully satisfactory conclusions, I am nonetheless grateful that we can discuss the matter civilly.

[HorseArcher]

it's impossible to draw any fully satisfactory conclusions, I am nonetheless grateful that we can discuss the matter civilly.

* just a sidenote...

off topic a bit,- but after reading Nihil's post as well as Spartan's I just had a flashback, what the curia once used to be like.

[Oldgamer]

I wish to inform the community that I will enthusiastically support the deification of Spartan. He's contributed much to the Total War Center, meets all of the requirements, and is a dedicated friend.

[Tacticalwithdrawal]

* just a sidenote...

off topic a bit,- but after reading Nihil's post as well as Spartan's I just had a flashback, what the curia once used to be like.

me too

anyway, I say yes if only for the hacker attack incident. I've been a manager handling that sort of event (thankfully only once) and I can say he did pretty much everything by the book.

[Silver Guard]

From my limited knowledge of the time scale involved (having come to TWC long after the time of Spartan). Spartan has yet to gain the community approval to become Divus. Divus is a rank reserved to THE greats of the forum. Was it not Spartan who brought us out of the hacker attacks? Sibs out of the Civil war? Boris is a name when spoken is either done so in awe or in spite, depending on the person. I'm afraid if Spartan was to have the rank, the latter would be the more common.
As Nihil has said Spartan is the .Spartan remembered in an almost Crandar-esque picture, one of dictatorship and iron-fisted regieme. Before speaking to him myself I was expecting a bitter, remorseless individual in terms of TWC. Despite what he has assured me in the contrary, this picture still echoes in the forum.
As such I oppose this proposal, until facts come to light and Spartan begins to be shone in a different light, the giving of a Divus rank would be inappropriate as one given to the most reverred of the forum

[Fabolous]

I will just say what I said when talking to Spartan in a PM:

I came to this site, April of 05. I was here for mods, posting for mods, RTR mostly. Then came the hacker attacks, this was my first introuduction to the Curia, and to the admins here. I, not even a civ, didn't understand everything, and was eager for info. I was friends with friends of the exiles, and found my way to their forum. So I got their side of the story. And no one has ever really done much to dispute that. That you were "evil" (for lack of a better wording coming to my mind) and that you were at fault for everything. The bannings, Crandar. Problems = Spartan's fault. And this was never challanged to me, and thus became fact in my mind. Now, upon your return, reading your interview, being reminded of your hard work, seeing peoples posts on the subject, that is being challanged. I do not know if a year of something I have consider solid knowledge can be changed in two weeks. It certainly hasn't yet. As I read, I of course find that you are not "evil." But, somethings have grown deep in time.

So for now, I do not know what I think of this. From what I seen of Spartan, from my talks with him, he is clearly a bright, smart individual, who stands by every action he has done for the community. Admirable, to say the least.