What about people who die without ever hearing about Jesus?

[total relism]

I will be doing a series of threads on common objections to the christian faith/bible. Around 15 in total of the most common objections I have seen on many forums through many years I have been involved on forums. I am looking to use these as references in future so I will only be dealing with discussion on the topic of each thread.

The first was on how could god allow the creation he loved/died for, end up in hell.
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=582734


So topic number two is...


What about people who die without ever hearing of jesus?.


This objection is, however, fallacious, because it assumes that those who have never heard about Christ are judged on the same basis as those who have. But the Bible says that the unreached will be judged on a quite different basis than those who have heard the gospel. God will judge the unreached on the basis of their response to His self-revelation in nature and conscience. The Bible says that from the created order alone, all persons can know that a Creator God exists and that God has implanted His moral law in the hearts of all persons so that they are held morally accountable to God (Rom. 1.20; 2.14-15). The Bible promises salvation to anyone who responds affirmatively to this self-revelation of God (Rom. 2.7). Now this does not mean that they can be saved apart from Christ. Rather it means that the benefits of Christ's sacrifice can be applied to them without their conscious knowledge of Christ. They would be like people in the Old Testament before Jesus came who had no conscious knowledge of Christ but who were saved on the basis of his sacrifice through their response to the information that God had revealed to them. And, thus, salvation is truly available to all persons at all times. It all depends upon our free response.
William lane Craig.


The book or Romans says anyone who would be saved, will be saved. So it matters not were someone is born as everyone willing will be saved. God knows who will accept him by there reaction to nature and there conscious, also No one goes to hell for not hearing the bible but for sinning against a holy god, and everyone who would be saved will be saved.


12 Some people do not know God's law when they sin. They will not be judged by the law when they die. Others do know God's law when they sin. They will be judged by the law.
13 For the hearers of the law are not righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be declared righteous.
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men
Romans 2 13-16



from the OT book of Jeremiah

31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
Jeremiah 31 31-34


all know god through creation and what is made
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse
Romans 1.20


The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
2 Day after day they pour forth speech;
night after night they reveal knowledge.
3 They have no speech, they use no words;
no sound is heard from them.
4 Yet their voice goes out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.
Psalm 19.4

so he will sprinkle#many nations,
and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
For what they were not told, they will see,
and what they have not heard, they will understand.
Isiah 52.15


in colosians 1.23 paul says every creature under haven has had gospel preached to them, the book was written in 60-62 A.D


I believe some people who claim to be atheist will be in heaven

“I was sought by those who did not ask for Me;
I was found by those who did not seek Me.
I said, ‘Here I am, here I am,’
To a nation that was not called by My name.
Isaiah 65.1


but many that hear about god will not accept him

I spread out My hands all day long
to a rebellious people
who walk in the wrong path,
following their own thoughts
Isiah 65.2


In Matt chapter 25 epically around vs 26 Jesus says he will reap were he has not yet sown, i believe in context this parable talks of those who have not herd of Jesus. In v 34-39 gentiles will be saved and entire paradise and say to Jesus when did i know you?

In Jeremiah 22.16 it says
16 He defended the cause of the poor and needy,
and so all went well.
Is that not what it means to know me?”
declares the LORD.



no one will be judged for sins they were unaware of

for where there is no law there is no transgression.
Romans chapter 4. 15


13 In fact, sin was in the world before the law, but sin is not charged to one's account when there is no law.
Romans 5.13


Paul argues with the Jews in Romans chapter 3 saying how can the law save? Is god, god only to those that have the law?

28For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
Romans 3 28-30

read rest of Romans chapter 3 and 10 also the rest of Romans for more

[Dr Zoidberg]

They miss out on a story that starts ok, has some ok parts in the middle, but can't sustain itself to the final act?

Edit: Also, TR are you actually capable of posting something that isn't cut and pasted from somewhere else? By that I mean, do you have original thoughts of your own?

[total relism]

They miss out on a story that starts ok, has some ok parts in the middle, but can't sustain itself to the final act?

Edit: Also, TR are you actually capable of posting something that isn't cut and pasted from somewhere else? By that I mean, do you have original thoughts of your own?

when its about the bible, I try to get my thought from there, when we are disusing objections to it. But generally us christians cannot think for ourselves, just ask any athist.

[Veliky Kaiser Theos]

Edit: Also, TR are you actually capable of posting something that isn't cut and pasted from somewhere else? By that I mean, do you have original thoughts of your own?

I consulted my colleague, Dr. Google, who pointed me to http://www.newchristian.org.uk/helldefended.html.

[sumskilz]

Rather it means that the benefits of Christ's sacrifice can be applied to them without their conscious knowledge of Christ. They would be like people in the Old Testament before Jesus came who had no conscious knowledge of Christ but who were saved on the basis of his sacrifice through their response to the information that God had revealed to them.

Sounds easier than Christian practice, so logically the best way to assure these people's salvation would be to avoid sharing knowledge of Christ with them.

[total relism]

Sounds easier than Christian practice, so logically the best way to assure these people's salvation would be to avoid sharing knowledge of Christ with them.

simple mistake you made NP
They are not all saved, neither are all who hear about jesus. But those who accept god will be saved regardless of hearing about jesus.

[Lazarus]

How does one accept a God they haven't heard about exactly?

[Sphere]

81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.

82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.

83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.

84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.

So those who never hear the testimony of Jesus Christ will dwell in the lowest kingdom, the telestial kingdom, along with those who reject it or those who sin against it.

85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the blast resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.

86 These are they who receive not of his fullness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;

87 And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial.

88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation.

However those in the telestial kingdom will be ministered by angels and by those of the terrestrial kingdom in the period before the second coming. Kinda like Bible study groups in prison.

106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work;

107 When he shall deliver up the kingdom, and present it unto the Father, spotless, saying: I have overcome and have trodden the wine-press alone, even the wine-press of the fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God.

108 Then shall he be crowned with the crown of his glory, to sit on the throne of his power to reign forever and ever.

When the second coming is complete those in the telestial will be delivered up to God, after having been properly ministered to.

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared;

112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

They will be rewarded with their own dominion based upon their works. However they will only be servants of God and will not get to live in the same realm of God and Christ. Also they will not get the powers of those in the terrestrial and celestial kingdoms. Not great but not bad either.

[total relism]

How does one accept a God they haven't heard about exactly?

OP

So those who never hear the testimony of Jesus Christ will dwell in the lowest kingdom, the telestial kingdom, along with those who reject it or those who sin against it.



However those in the telestial kingdom will be ministered by angels and by those of the terrestrial kingdom in the period before the second coming. Kinda like Bible study groups in prison.



When the second coming is complete those in the telestial will be delivered up to God, after having been properly ministered to.



They will be rewarded with their own dominion based upon their works. However they will only be servants of God and will not get to live in the same realm of God and Christ. Also they will not get the powers of those in the terrestrial and celestial kingdoms. Not great but not bad either.

? no idea what your saying here? I think your into some Mormon theology here. What the bible says on the subject is on op. No wonder you dont leave reference.

[sumskilz]

? no idea what your saying here? I think your into some Mormon theology here. What the bible says on the subject is on op. No wonder you dont leave reference.

The LDS church is "the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth" ~Doctrine and Covenants 1:30

[Admiral Piett]

OP





? no idea what your saying here? I think your into some Mormon theology here. What the bible says on the subject is on op. No wonder you dont leave reference.

No, actually that is quite close to what I remember my church preaching. I was raised a Lutheran.

However, of course, Jesus never said any of this and this is why Christian dogma is purely a result of Roman clerical alteration.

[Sphere]

? no idea what your saying here? I think your into some Mormon theology here. What the bible says on the subject is on op. No wonder you dont leave reference.

It is all revelation from God.

[total relism]

It is all revelation from God.

so your mormon? well I am christian, this thread as pointed out in Op is in regards to let me qoute op

"I will be doing a series of threads on common objections to the christian faith/bible"

[Aeneas Veneratio]

"I will be doing a series of threads on common objections to the christian faith/bible"

If your topics are not going to be more than a lot of quotes, could you please just make one thread with each topic in its own spoiler.
Your first thread should also have been about the historicity of the Bible, which would have increased the value of the following threads. Quoting books, who lack historicity, is rather pointless.
The way you handled critism in the other thread shows a person incapable of having a proper debate with real arguments. 15 threads of the same are going to be Hell on Earth, if that is the way you are planning to respond to people, who question your pile of quotes.

[Sphere]

so your mormon? well I am christian, this thread as pointed out in Op is in regards to let me qoute op

"I will be doing a series of threads on common objections to the christian faith/bible"

You cannot do a complete job while leaving out the revelations given to the latter day saints.

[total relism]

You cannot do a complete job while leaving out the revelations given to the latter day saints.

I can if I am christian and believe jesus/bible as both say he was last to be sent .

[Makrell]

very good thread, thank you.

i find it very informative

[basics]

" What about people who die without ever hearing of jesus?."

Total Relism,

It is written that Jesus said, " No man can come to the Father except by Me and no man can come to Me except the Father draws him." Now in the garden at the fall, God declared that a " seed " the seed of the woman Eve, would come to contest with that which the serpent represented for the souls of men. That was the beginning of the Gospel message which Adam no doubt brought out of the garden and gave to his offspring.

When Abel was accounted righteous before God, that is made perfect in God's eyes, Jesus Christ must have been revealed to that man, why? Because there is nothing in heaven or earth by which, outside of Jesus Christ, anyone can be justified by God. It is and always will be the blood of Christ that brings about justification.

So when men state that there are people who have never heard of Jesus Christ there are flaws in their argument. 1. The Gospel and false gospels have been handed down through all humanity much into folklore but nonetheless handed down. 2. Paul states that men only have to take a good look around them to see the hand of God in all that surrounds him. 3. Regardless of the thoughts of any man or his beliefs, when Jesus Christ is revealed to anyone that revelation stirs up the conscience to what may have been dismantled through the mists of time in the minds of men. That was what Jesus was talking about when He made that statement above.

Finally, when Jesus Christ went into the depths it was not to let people see who He was because they had never heard of Him. It was to show them what they had rejected in their lives when they were alive on this planet and show them by personal appearance. They weren't there for the fun of it. They were there because they had rejected the Gospel promise, happily following their own imaginary thoughts, whether the Law of Moses or the laws that by natural content they followed.

Remember there isn't a human being alive or dead that has not been a fallen creature, some remaining so all the days of their lives, but that cannot excuse them in any way. Therefore it is a fallacy to say that there are men who have never heard of God, the Gospel or the promise made of the " seed " that should come and did come. The contempt they are held in is because they rejected it somewhere along the line. Those who today still reject it will discover to their cost like them that Jesus Christ is both Saviour and Lord when they too are taken out of this world.

[Sar1n]

1. The Gospel and false gospels have been handed down through all humanity much into folklore but nonetheless handed down. 2. Paul states that men only have to take a good look around them to see the hand of God in all that surrounds him.

1. is blatantly false, do I even need to write down the cultures that never had concept of one god before christianity reached them?
2. Opinions, opinions. If you were taught from infancy something else, like polytheistic myths, coming to different conclusion is very unlikely. And even if you have time to really think it over, there's nothing objectively pointing to any deity.

[total relism]

If your topics are not going to be more than a lot of quotes, could you please just make one thread with each topic in its own spoiler.
Your first thread should also have been about the historicity of the Bible, which would have increased the value of the following threads. Quoting books, who lack historicity, is rather pointless.
The way you handled critism in the other thread shows a person incapable of having a proper debate with real arguments. 15 threads of the same are going to be Hell on Earth, if that is the way you are planning to respond to people, who question your pile of quotes.

I dont think one thread could hold all 15. Everyone wants me to start with topic they feel is most important. All I can do is pick the top 15 and present them in a somewhat random order. So for you its historical accuracy of bible,to me and others with knowledge in this area this is so easily responded to as to not be one of first topics,others its gods morality, many think he ordered genocide, some the translation of bible etc I cant please them all on one thread. That is why I am doing in topical order. Please provide how I did not handle cristsim on other thread. Please read post 64. What he has taken clearly out of context I agree with him on, not to mention it would just help me answer the problem. This is the problem when people dont read my responses such as you have done on other thread. You will not be able to show him being on topic or against me,the bible,and craig, in fact I showed how the bible agrees with him 4 times, yet he still argued it.

No, actually that is quite close to what I remember my church preaching. I was raised a Lutheran.

However, of course, Jesus never said any of this and this is why Christian dogma is purely a result of Roman clerical alteration.

Does not matter what you think your church preached. If they teaches mormon theology I am no genius, but my guess is you went to Mormon temple. You cant object on this thread unless it has to do with bible, you want to argue a Mormon theology that is ok, but start a thread for it.


your second claim is part of a future topic and so clearly false, but I shall record what you say here above as evidence people truly believe these things and use it in that thread, thank you.

" What about people who die without ever hearing of jesus?."

Total Relism,

It is written that Jesus said, " No man can come to the Father except by Me and no man can come to Me except the Father draws him." Now in the garden at the fall, God declared that a " seed " the seed of the woman Eve, would come to contest with that which the serpent represented for the souls of men. That was the beginning of the Gospel message which Adam no doubt brought out of the garden and gave to his offspring.

When Abel was accounted righteous before God, that is made perfect in God's eyes, Jesus Christ must have been revealed to that man, why? Because there is nothing in heaven or earth by which, outside of Jesus Christ, anyone can be justified by God. It is and always will be the blood of Christ that brings about justification.

So when men state that there are people who have never heard of Jesus Christ there are flaws in their argument. 1. The Gospel and false gospels have been handed down through all humanity much into folklore but nonetheless handed down. 2. Paul states that men only have to take a good look around them to see the hand of God in all that surrounds him. 3. Regardless of the thoughts of any man or his beliefs, when Jesus Christ is revealed to anyone that revelation stirs up the conscience to what may have been dismantled through the mists of time in the minds of men. That was what Jesus was talking about when He made that statement above.

Finally, when Jesus Christ went into the depths it was not to let people see who He was because they had never heard of Him. It was to show them what they had rejected in their lives when they were alive on this planet and show them by personal appearance. They weren't there for the fun of it. They were there because they had rejected the Gospel promise, happily following their own imaginary thoughts, whether the Law of Moses or the laws that by natural content they followed.

Remember there isn't a human being alive or dead that has not been a fallen creature, some remaining so all the days of their lives, but that cannot excuse them in any way. Therefore it is a fallacy to say that there are men who have never heard of God, the Gospel or the promise made of the " seed " that should come and did come. The contempt they are held in is because they rejected it somewhere along the line. Those who today still reject it will discover to their cost like them that Jesus Christ is both Saviour and Lord when they too are taken out of this world.

I disagree with you fully, what your doing is tacking a statement the bible says [only way is through Jesus I agree 100% with btw] and ending the bible there. Instead of letting the bible dig your theology deeper and allow it to speak for itself. This is what causes so much division and debate within the church today, people take what they see as contradictory statements and try to ignore one and hold the other. For example

john 3.17
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him


"For judgment I have come into this world
john 9.39



so what is it? condemn the world? or save it? know I now this is not a contraction as do you,because we understand the deeper meanings and how they both apply. So all I ask is you allow the entire bible to apply to all circumstances [those who have heard about jesus and those who have not] than you will find the correct biblical answer, instead of hard-lining a passage here and there. read OP again, I never said any are saved outside of the work of jesus on the cross.