How could a loving god send people to Hell?

[total relism]

I will be doing a series of threads on common objections to the christian faith/bible. Around 15 in total of the most common objections I have seen on many forums through many years I have been involved on forums. I am looking to use these as references in future so I will only be dealing with discussion on the topic of each thread. So topic number one is...




how could a loving god as described in the bible, send those he loves to hell?those he loved so much as to send his son to die for them.

First god sends no one to hell, people chose by free will separation from him.
Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels Matt 25.41 not for humans
haven was prepared for man matt 25.34
there are Degrees of punishment in hell Matt 11 22-24 Romans 2.6
hell is separation from gods presence 2 Thessalonians 1.9


Okay, for the sake of argument, let’s pretend that it is really mean of God to punish people for rebellion and unbelief. For the sake of argument, let’s say that everyone does go to Heaven, regardless of their status in the Book of Life. Wouldn’t it be horribly unfair for God to condemn people who hate Him to an eternity in His presence, whether they like it or not? Heaven wouldn’t be pleasant for those who hate God, because Heaven is the place where we will fully experience God’s presence. Those who love God look forward to Heaven with longing, but Heaven would be nearly as bad as Hell for the unbeliever, because the unregenerate heart hates God.so in a sense, Hell is God finally giving the unbeliever what he wanted all along. But the absence of God means the absence of everything good, since everything good comes from Him
William lane craig

As C.S. Lewis has written:
"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, in the end, 'Thy will be done.' All that are in Hell choose it." (C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce, Ch 9)


When unbelieving critics talk about Hell, they sometimes speak like it will be full of innocent people (like themselves!). However, the Bible doesn’t indicate that innocent people will spend a single moment in Hell. Rather, Hell is God’s answer to the fundamental injustice of this life. There are many murderers, rapists, and other people who wreak havoc in the lives of others, who never experience judgment in this life. Everyone knows that it is wrong that these people never be brought to account for what they’ve done; something in the human heart#demands#justice. And Hell is God’s answer.

Randy Alcorn writes:
Without Hell, justice would never overtake the unrepentant tyrants responsible for murdering millions. Perpetrators of evil throughout the ages would get away with murder—and rape, and torture, and every evil.
Even if we may acknowledge Hell as a necessary and just punishment for evildoers, however, we rarely see#ourselves#as worthy of Hell.

God responds,#“There is no one righteous, not even one. There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one”#(Romans 3:10–12
it’s hard to understand that we deserve punishment, too. But most people have grievances against others—if someone stole from you, or hurt your children, or if you were a victim of something fundamentally unjust, you would want justice; your sense of what is right would demand that the person at fault pay a penalty for wronging you. Every time we break God’s law, that’s an affront to God, and He demands justice, just as we do imperfectly on a smaller scale. If you’ve ever said in your heart, “That person should#pay#for what he did!” then you fundamentally agree with the idea of Hell, because the doctrine of Hell says#somebody#is going to pay for every sin, eventually.

But the person who goes to Hell must reject Christ, who died so that anyone who repents can be saved. So God is not to be blamed when an unrepentant, rebellious creature chooses a destructive path that leads to Hell.
http://creation.com/hell

I have even heard it said that God created hell as an act of love. God gave us free will and therefore must accommodate those who do not want anything to do with Him. God's love for His followers is eternity in His presence, but those who reject Him must spend eternity separated from Him. So eternal punishment is not for those God hates, but those who hate Him.
http://www.creationconversations.com...d-hate-sinners

It is not gods fault that many will reject him, his offer is still fair and loving as hell was never meant for man.
Man chooses to go there witch has nothing to do with gods love or fairness but mans free will.
What of the people who do accept him? Should he not have made them because of those that chose life without god?

For why hell is a eternal sin with eternal punishment read
p 58-59 july-sep 2012 answers mag


hell literal fire?
Hell was prepared for devil and his angels matt 25.41 witch are spiritual beings unaffected by physical fire. hell is described as dark with flames, fire if literal would cancel each other out.

Fire is a picture of judgment, in Deuteronomy 9 and other places, it says god goes before Israel as a consuming fir. Means judgment. He judges cannan yet never burns them or cause fire etc the fire of his judgment was not literal fire, but he did judge them.


eternity?
We live in time, time itself is a created thing, so in eternity its not like time passes by forever. we will be outside of time in eternity, something very hard to understand and grasp

[Adhamh Ashashi]

As someone who believes in a faith I see it like a contractual obligation. You abide by the contract and the terms of the contract, you will be okay. You breach the contract terms without reason, you get punished.

Simple and easy.

[Ciabhán]

As someone who believes in a faith I see it like a contractual obligation. You abide by the contract and the terms of the contract, you will be okay. You breach the contract terms without reason, you get punished.

Simple and easy.

A contract is an agreement entered into voluntarily by two or more parties

I never agreed to or signed any contract. I don't feel particularly beholden to a contract under duress.

dont atheist object to the idea of hell?

No. Firstly because we don't believe in this mystical nonsense. Secondly because if we're wrong your Heaven would be our Hell.

I will say again to your first response on this topic about hell.

well at least the biblical concept of god disagrees with you, so unless you can provide evidence that this applies to the biblical god,than it remains off topic and not worthy of response.

You are claiming that Hell is the absence of good because your god isn't in it. He is pointing out that your god is, according to your holy book, a bloodthirsty mass-murdering tyrant with a childish knack for throwing fits. Seems to me good and god, while etymologically related words, are conceptually mutually exclusive in this case.

Hell therefore would actually be full of good.

[Ummagumma]

Nice piece, it was good to read a piece on the separation of man and God, rather than the evil fires of torment. Just a few thoughts, however:

Heaven would be nearly as bad as Hell for the unbeliever, because the unregenerate heart hates God.so in a sense, Hell is God finally giving the unbeliever what he wanted all along. But the absence of God means the absence of everything good, since everything good comes from Him
William lane craig

This guy.. has issues. Absence of everything good? Therefore, in this situation, it is impossible for any but a Christian to do good, which is quite obviously false. Morality, for one, is a fluctuating, culturally informed thing - but even if, for the sake of argument, morality starts and ends at God's word then many ~believers~ live, and have lived, much 'worse' lives than non-believers (be they followers of other religions, or atheists). It has always been an argument of some that their religion has a monopoly on morality and disbelievers all just cheat and steal and lie - but it is more a reflection on those particular followers, I think. In that they actually ~need~ a supernatural father figure watching them 24 hours a day in order to not be an ass, rather than not being an ass through any form of independent thought process.
Also, how is it possible for an unbeliever to hate God? Hatred is a strong emotion, similar to but opposing Love. Just as I could not 'love' something that doesn't exist, I sure as heck couldn't hate it. Just the same as I could not repaint a wall that does not exists, and I wouldn't mind because it couldn't be the wrong colour anyway.

hell literal fire?
Hell was prepared for devil and his angels matt 25.41 witch are spiritual beings unaffected by physical fire. hell is described as dark with flames, fire if literal would cancel each other out.

Fire is a picture of judgment, in Deuteronomy 9 and other places, it says god goes before Israel as a consuming fir. Means judgment. He judges cannan yet never burns them or cause fire etc the fire of his judgment was not literal fire, but he did judge them.

The actual passages refering to hell are ambiguous at best. Many seem to just directly imply the dead go to Gehenna, a funeral mound. That became viewed more allegorically, and combined with the 'outside of God's Love' to become the cultural stereotype we now think of. The history of Christian art is a wonderful demonstration of how attitudes changed over the centuries, regarding the wider interpretations of many aspects of Christianity. It wasn't until the early Medieval era, a good millennia after Jesus' death, that Satan became 'Torturer in Chief' of the 'Pits of Hell', where people were tortured for their sins.

eternity?
We live in time, time itself is a created thing, so in eternity its not like time passes by forever. we will be outside of time in eternity, something very hard to understand and grasp

As there is no time, and there is no biological matter (thus no brain, no memories, no cognitive ability, no dopamine. No Seratonin or Oxytocin) there is no awareness, no personality, no happiness and no love. So no time in which to have nothing makes them both.. quite the same. Never mind though.

[total relism]

Nice piece, it was good to read a piece on the separation of man and God, rather than the evil fires of torment. Just a few thoughts, however:

This guy.. has issues. Absence of everything good? Therefore, in this situation, it is impossible for any but a Christian to do good, which is quite obviously false. Morality, for one, is a fluctuating, culturally informed thing - but even if, for the sake of argument, morality starts and ends at God's word then many ~believers~ live, and have lived, much 'worse' lives than non-believers (be they followers of other religions, or atheists). It has always been an argument of some that their religion has a monopoly on morality and disbelievers all just cheat and steal and lie - but it is more a reflection on those particular followers, I think. In that they actually ~need~ a supernatural father figure watching them 24 hours a day in order to not be an ass, rather than not being an ass through any form of independent thought process.
Also, how is it possible for an unbeliever to hate God? Hatred is a strong emotion, similar to but opposing Love. Just as I could not 'love' something that doesn't exist, I sure as heck couldn't hate it. Just the same as I could not repaint a wall that does not exists, and I wouldn't mind because it couldn't be the wrong colour anyway.

I think You misunderstand what hes saying, he is saying in the absence of god [hell] will also be the absence of good as good comes from god. So take away good [haven] and you get hell or separation from god.

Someone who rejects god dislikes him,that is why they reject him. Weather someone who believes in him or not does not change the fact of what is. To see if atheist hate god,just keep an eye on these forums, or any of my threads it will become very clear.

The actual passages refering to hell are ambiguous at best. Many seem to just directly imply the dead go to Gehenna, a funeral mound. That became viewed more allegorically, and combined with the 'outside of God's Love' to become the cultural stereotype we now think of. The history of Christian art is a wonderful demonstration of how attitudes changed over the centuries, regarding the wider interpretations of many aspects of Christianity. It wasn't until the early Medieval era, a good millennia after Jesus' death, that Satan became 'Torturer in Chief' of the 'Pits of Hell', where people were tortured for their sins.

This part and passages were simply my view on if hell was literal fire, I cant say for sure not, but I cant say it is, it is judgment however [according to bible].

As there is no time, and there is no biological matter (thus no brain, no memories, no cognitive ability, no dopamine. No Seratonin or Oxytocin) there is no awareness, no personality, no happiness and no love. So no time in which to have nothing makes them both.. quite the same. Never mind though.

Not at all to eternal spiritual beings. But quit true, that is why time will end as stated.

[Ummagumma]

I think You misunderstand what hes saying, he is saying in the absence of god [hell] will also be the absence of good as good comes from god. So take away good [haven] and you get hell or separation from god.

Someone who rejects god dislikes him,that is why they reject him. Weather someone who believes in him or not does not change the fact of what is. To see if atheist hate god,just keep an eye on these forums, or any of my threads it will become very clear.

No, I got what what he is saying, and you reiterate it by saying "Good comes from God". I do not believe in your, or any other God/s/Myths/Whatever.. so if your statement is true, I am unable to do good, as I am nothing to do with God.

Likewise, to me, God does not exist. So I don't hate it. I ~can't~ hate it, as it is an entirely fictional entity. I am not a fan of many aspects of organised religions, but as God is not a thing, I cannot hate it. To hate it, would be to think it exists. Surely?

Not at all to eternal spiritual beings. But quit true, that is why time will end as stated.

Well, my reply to that would drag your thread entirely off topic, but as you intend on making a series of threads, maybe one discussing the concept of an 'immortal soul' is coming soon?

[total relism]

No, I got what what he is saying, and you reiterate it by saying "Good comes from God". I do not believe in your, or any other God/s/Myths/Whatever.. so if your statement is true, I am unable to do good, as I am nothing to do with God.

Likewise, to me, God does not exist. So I don't hate it. I ~can't~ hate it, as it is an entirely fictional entity. I am not a fan of many aspects of organised religions, but as God is not a thing, I cannot hate it. To hate it, would be to think it exists. Surely?


Well, my reply to that would drag your thread entirely off topic, but as you intend on making a series of threads, maybe one discussing the concept of an 'immortal soul' is coming soon?

I do believe we are talking of two separate things. No-were did I or the bible say that atheist cant or dont do "good". The bible and me agree they can, in fact in OT god says to isreal the pagan worshiper's dont even commit the sins you do. What Craig and me are saying is the absence of the source of good [god] is to be taken away, your left with hell. Does not mean you cant chose good, but your circumstances and the presence you will dwell in [hell] will have no god and therefore no good in it. God curentley provides good for all good or bad to some degree.


He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
matt 5.45


I will refer you to my earlier post on hating god.




I do thank you for not bringing this off topic.

[Ummagumma]

I do believe we are talking of two separate things. No-were did I or the bible say that atheist cant or dont do "good". The bible and me agree they can, in fact in OT god says to isreal the pagan worshiper's dont even commit the sins you do. What Craig and me are saying is the absence of the source of good [god] is to be taken away, your left with hell. Does not mean you cant chose good, but your circumstances and the presence you will dwell in [hell] will have no god and therefore no good in it. God curentley provides good for all good or bad to some degree.

So, for argument's sake, God is real, and the source of all good. I do not believe in him. Yet you say that it is God that works ~through~ me, in order to do any good that I consciously decide to do myself?
To take it further, I die, and with this immortal soul I have, find myself in hell. Hell, where good cannot exists, as there is no God. That means, essentially, that my immortal soul is not 'me', as I do good, of my own 'free will'. I consciously decide to do certain actions, and find some 'evil' actions to be deeply disturbing. But when I go to hell, for not believing/loving/whatever this God.. My personality changes to one different to the person I am now, as I was never 'good' in the first place. It was only ever God being good. I am not 'me'.

That argument then progresses to the point of asking 'why does God not make everyone Good, if he is the source of Good?'. I am unable to be good without God, so it is a lack of God that makes evil? I suddenly feel diminished in my own ability to generate my own 'goodness'. I'm a puppet.

I will refer you to my earlier post on hating god.

I read it that time also. Still makes no sense. Do you hate Zeus, or Rumplestiltskin, or Dick Dastardly? I'd venture a guess and say you do not, because they are fictional entities. So it is impossible to really hate them. There is just indifference, and a story. And so God is the same to me. I am utterly indifferent, as I do not think of it as a real thing. I do have some issues with religion, but I know that is humans, not 'God'.

[Himster]

The answer is simple: the concept of God is capricious by definition, no matter what kind of mythology societies try to wrap him in to make themselves feel better.

[total relism]

The answer is simple: the concept of God is capricious by definition, no matter what kind of mythology societies try to wrap him in to make themselves feel better.

well at least the biblical concept of god disagrees with you, so unless you can provide evidence that this applies to the biblical god,than it remains off topic and not worthy of response.

So, for argument's sake, God is real, and the source of all good. I do not believe in him. Yet you say that it is God that works ~through~ me, in order to do any good that I consciously decide to do myself?
To take it further, I die, and with this immortal soul I have, find myself in hell. Hell, where good cannot exists, as there is no God. That means, essentially, that my immortal soul is not 'me', as I do good, of my own 'free will'. I consciously decide to do certain actions, and find some 'evil' actions to be deeply disturbing. But when I go to hell, for not believing/loving/whatever this God.. My personality changes to one different to the person I am now, as I was never 'good' in the first place. It was only ever God being good. I am not 'me'.

That argument then progresses to the point of asking 'why does God not make everyone Good, if he is the source of Good?'. I am unable to be good without God, so it is a lack of God that makes evil? I suddenly feel diminished in my own ability to generate my own 'goodness'. I'm a puppet.

I read it that time also. Still makes no sense. Do you hate Zeus, or Rumplestiltskin, or Dick Dastardly? I'd venture a guess and say you do not, because they are fictional entities. So it is impossible to really hate them. There is just indifference, and a story. And so God is the same to me. I am utterly indifferent, as I do not think of it as a real thing. I do have some issues with religion, but I know that is humans, not 'God'.

Not at all what I am saying, please go back read OP slowly. I am not sure how you are coming to this conclusion on what is meant noone else is. Understand that the OP was written with the topic of hell alone, nothing of atheist deeds. I cant exspalin it any different than I have already two times. Neither me,craig or the bible say what you are thinking.

God did make us "good" and gave us a perfect paradise to live in. But he also gave us free will so that we are not just puppets. god gave us free will to accept or deny him we chose to deny. he could have made us all perfect pray all day always do the right thing follow all his rules.But thats not love god wants us to chose to follow him out of love which only comes with free will.

read here
God created human beings to be in a relationship with Him. But a true loving relationship has to be freely given or chosen—one could program a robot to think it loves its programmer, but that would be meaningless because the robot didn’t have a choice. God wanted human beings to love Him freely, for who He is, not just for what He had given and provided for them. But that required the chance to not love Him, to rebel.




Than you may very well come under my second topic, so stay around.

[Himster]

well at least the biblical concept of god disagrees with you,

The biblical deity kills men women and children en masse for trivial, petty and arbitrary reasons with diseases and "natural" disasters and is still called "good" (only by his followers) any being who does such things cannot be called good, at best his character is neutral: equal amounts of random kindness and random evil does not make him good, or necessarily evil. To call such a being "good" would make that word completely and totally meaningless, a shameless mockery of any virtue or compassion that exists in reality.

[total relism]

The biblical deity kills men women and children en masse for trivial, petty and arbitrary reasons with diseases and "natural" disasters and is still called "good" (only by his followers) any being who does such things cannot be called good, at best his character is neutral: equal amounts of random kindness and random evil does not make him good, or necessarily evil. To call such a being "good" would make that word completely and totally meaningless, a shameless mockery of any virtue or compassion that exists in reality.

I will say again to your first response on this topic about hell.

well at least the biblical concept of god disagrees with you, so unless you can provide evidence that this applies to the biblical god,than it remains off topic and not worthy of response.


what you have done now is to try and drag off topic to what happens to be 3 or more of my topic that will be coming up, so stay around. I will be glad to discuss with you than these great topic's that happen to be my favorite topic's. When I said the 15 most common objections i meant it, you are bringing up the most common today, part of what started me on all these so please stay around. Though I most likely will save these type for last or near last as they are my favorite.

[Himster]

well at least the biblical concept of god disagrees with you, so unless you can provide evidence that this applies to the biblical god,than it remains off topic and not worthy of response.

You must have an amazing talent for selective reading when it comes to your bible.
Samuel 15:3 God orders genocide including men women and children, cattle, sheep and donkeys. There is no excuse (or possibility of redemption) for ordering the mass murder of children.
Hosea 13:16 commanding the murder of more children "and the ripping open of pregnant women", this time from Samaria.
Genesis 7: the flood, another genocide that destroyed men women and children for vague and vain reasons and also almost all the animals were killed this time for some reason, except for fish and sea animals, they had a great time.

But most importantly it is traditionally established that the deity of the bible is all powerfull and controls everything even natural disasters and diseases, it's by his will that children get cancer and blood disorders and parasites and are murdered by his will in tsunamis and floods and epidemics and famines. Millions and millions and millions of children, all the combined evils of man pale in comparison.

Everything has its meaning. Worm doesn't understand how car works. Neither do U unterstand God's plans.

That's a truly terrible excuse.
Hitler had a plan too, we just didn't understand it.

[NRohirrim]

@Himster
Everything has its meaning. Worm doesn't understand how car works. Neither do U unterstand God's plans.

[Aeneas Veneratio]

15 threads of a OP going on an quote frenzy...? May Thor throw his thunderbolts at every one of those threads and incinerate them!

Everything has its meaning. Worm doesn't understand how car works. Neither do U unterstand God's plans.

So, getting raped, murdered or being born with a handicap are all part of a "plan"? What about that guy standing behind you, ready to use that knife of his, is that good aswell?

Taking a while for you to answer... Don't bother to use bible quotes, the road to Hell was paved by them.

[AqD]

@Himster
Everything has its meaning. Worm doesn't understand how car works. Neither do U unterstand God's plans.

And worms don't understand why we crush them whenever we find them, but it's certain that we crush them for goodness.

[Rinan]

Good threat. Well done OP. I think one important thing to realise when thinking about religion, and/or criticising it, is that the vast majority of religious people do not properly understand their own religion. Some central key-phrases, yes, but the underlying philosophy goes much deeper. An extreme example is the Westboro Church. To me it seems that anyone who's going on the streets angrily declaring "God hates fags", missed the point of christianity.

No, I got what what he is saying, and you reiterate it by saying "Good comes from God". I do not believe in your, or any other God/s/Myths/Whatever.. so if your statement is true, I am unable to do good, as I am nothing to do with God.

But do you hate God? Are you repulsed by goodness and virtue? If God were to appear in front of you, would you say " you and your beard!"?
By definition, if you don't believe God exists you can't hate him because you can't hate something that doesn't exist.
That's what it's about. In the end, Jesus died on the cross for your ignorance, so you're saved. Yay!
(That's my interpretation anyway, don't take my word for it, I'm a heathen )

[Himster]

I give up, reading comprehension and blindening dogmatism as bad as yours makes any and all discussion utter drivel and pointless.
Blocked.

[total relism]

Does anyone besides Ummagumma care to talk of the topic of hell? dont atheist object to the idea of hell? were do they always go when thread is on this topic? when I make one on conquest of cannan etc they will all return to this topic etc.

[Ummagumma]

Does anyone besides Ummagumma care to talk of the topic of hell?

Well, I tried to, but it seems that to question anything is wrong, the OP is sacred and shall not be questioned, and attempted discussion has been shut down?

Why is it so out of place to put the very concept of 'God is the good, as the absence of God is the absence of good' into another context? It refers directly to the conceptualised hell in the OP. Like, when I go to hell, I will not be myself, as I can not be good in the absence of God. So 'I' am not going to hell, as I would not be who I am. But likewise, I cannot go to heaven, as I don't believe this God exists.. so I cannot love or worship it any more than I could convince myself that Gandalf is real. Which goes without saying.. I couldn't do.

I'm not sure exactly what you wanted with this thread if to question it is off topic.