In protest for the closing of the WWI for FOTS thread

[Turtler]

My apologies sirs, and I do not mean to denigrate your works on the mother mod, or the patience you have had with us, but I must protest the closure of the previous thread without one of our team being ablee to respond. as a member of WWI for FOTS, we were in the process of preparing a "presentation set" of our work. However, due to the obvious post restriction, we were not at liberty to say this in the thread itself until we had the presentation up and running.

We were and are still working on it when the thread was closed without one of our team being able to respond. I can understand the concerns TGW team has had with it, and particularly how it could be misleading and unwelcome, but I do believe that this was premature, unfair to the team, and to be honest, more than a little bit rude. Especially given the fact that- personally- the decision to change the title seems like something of an insult to our team (as raw as it is) and our project.

As such, I must protest, on behalf of my team and our progress. I am the first to admit that we are not perfect, and the situation is not ideal for you. However, the fact remains that we were promised a last chance. WE WERE NOT GIVEN that last chance. So the closure of the thread is invalid and wrong, and the name change is just twisting the blade.

I don't want this to turn into a bloodbath, or a rivalry. Team aside, I've been one of this mod's dedicated fans for around a year now, and I think we all agree that ugly intra-mod rivalries don't do anything good. I just feel that this specific treatment is unfair.

[King Sama]

I did not close the thread (someone got there before me), but I fully agree with the thread title change. We have stated our position several times, yet people still weren't getting the message. This is a clear way to send that message.

Furthermore, the thread was not one of your mod. It was a public request, in our forum, and we may do what we please within our rights as team members and local moderators. If you wished to set up a thread solely for your mod, that would have needed to be discussed beforehand. So no, we were not "rude", the thread did not represent your mod, but a discussion like any other.

However, the fact remains that we were promised a last chance. WE WERE NOT GIVEN that last chance.

A last chance was given when I didn't immediately close the thread. Again, we don't speak to you and your mod, we spoke with anyone viewing the thread. Clearly our posts were not sufficient to change the topic of conversation.

To make it entirely clear, there is no animosity between your project and ours. All in all, I think we as a team have been fairly supportive of other mods, and I'd be surprised if any of us wouldn't be glad to see a ww1 mod for FOTS. The closing of the thread has no bearing on our affiliations with your mod (as last discussed with BigDogDavis).

I'm glad to hear a presentation is in the works. A thread, however, isn't the best place to put it. I suggest sending it as a PM to myself or any other team member (asking that they post it in the dev forum). Then we can discuss how to best communicate in the future.

Best of luck with your mod.

EDIT: Looking again, I'm guessing you fear that "No TGW for FOTS" will be interpreted as "No WW1 mod for FOTS"? Say if so, we can change the name to be clearer.

[Turtler]

I did not close the thread (someone got there before me), but I fully agree with the thread title change. We have stated our position several times, yet people still weren't getting the message. This is a clear way to send that message.

Thank you for the clarification, but the fact that you had intention to do so is troubling to the extreme, for the reasons I mentioned before.

For clarification: did you get any further such "messages" or proof that people were not accepting it? Or did you assume that we were not getting that message? If the former, I apologize on behalf of the team, and would appreciate if you provide the transcripts from those after the ultimatum.

Furthermore, the thread was not one of your mod. It was a public request, in our forum, and we may do what we please within our rights as team members and local moderators.

I haven noticed, and recognize your sovereignty on this sub-forum. However, we also ask you recognize a few things.

1. As you pointed out, the thread was hardly the creation of our mod team, and as such we were simply piggybacking on it due to fears over A: the overexposure detracting from more important things for TGW and B: the fact that we were not sure it would be considerate to create a duplicate thread covering a similar and- as you pointed out- unwelcome topic when there was already an open thread. Would you have preferred us to open up a duplicate/second thread? Because we will take this in confidence for future reference.

2. The fact remains that while the thread was not of our mod team's making, the message you gave most deliberately was. The work we were putting in to the presentation was a direct response to your challenge. The fact that it was closed after a rather small amount of time (especially for a largely raw mod team) because of posts that were not related to our mod or from our team, when coupled with the aforementioned certainly sent a message that amounts to you being unwilling to follow through with the promises you put forward to us. Hence why I'm here now.

I can understand the reasons why you would want the thread closed- to deal with the unrelated heckling- and why the "message' you were trying to sent might have been taken far worse than it actually was. But that's why I was sent here to nail down the theses to the church door here, and figure out where everyone stands. I'm sorry for the bother.

If you wished to set up a thread solely for your mod, that would have needed to be discussed beforehand.

Thank you, and I will be *sure* to relay that message back up the tree, so that if and when this comes up next, we will *ensure* that something like the farrago of the last thread does not happen on our account.

So no, we were not "rude",

I'm sorry, but we would beg to differ, but that does not mean that was your intent. Much like I imagine how many might take what I am saying as that (and I can understand why, and apologize).

the thread did not represent your mod, but a discussion like any other.

Yes, but the problem comes from the fact that while the thread did not represent our mod, the *ultimatum* you gave did, given that it was addressed to us. The demand was that we provide evidence of and an overview of our progress, or else the thread would be closed. We were and are in the process of work on this mod, which could be easily purposed for this. The fact that it was shut down primarily due to actions that had nothing to do with our own mod is why I am here. Because that ultimatum did represent our mod.

I'm here to do a sounding, and see what is wrong, and what we as the team can do to help, and to eliminate any real or perceived hostilities between our teams, and any real or perceived blemishes on our mod's reputation.

A last chance was given when I didn't immediately close the thread. Again, we don't speak to you and your mod, we spoke with anyone viewing the thread. Clearly our posts were not sufficient to change the topic of conversation.

A last chance whose wording all but exclusively signaled out our mod and our team as the subject? If need be, I can provide a direct quotation if need be, but it's hard to see its' intended audience as being ambiguous or as wide as you imply here. Which is again why I am here; we understand why you might want to close it down, and we appreciate your tolerance and patience with the issue and with our team- both before and now- but I am obliged to voice this and find a way to smooth things over.

We made a vow to rise to the challenge you set, and I'm not demanding some specialized op-ed or Versailles-esque reparations. We just want the ultimatum issue tied up in a bow, and to solve any other issues that might've sprung up.

To make it entirely clear, there is no animosity between your project and ours.

Thank you. That's a big relief, and I'm sorry for the problems all of this has caused.

All in all, I think we as a team have been fairly supportive of other mods, and I'd be surprised if any of us wouldn't be glad to see a ww1 mod for FOTS.

I would agree, you have been very, very supportive of other mods. The fact that my random popup on an Italian mini-campaign wasn't laughed out of the room shows that. That only made us more confused about the premature closure of the thread before we could compose an effective response.

The closing of the thread has no bearing on our affiliations with your mod (as last discussed with BigDogDavis).

Indeed? That is good to hear, and I'm sorry I didn't hear of it sooner.

I'm glad to hear a presentation is in the works. A thread, however, isn't the best place to put it. I suggest sending it as a PM to myself or any other team member (asking that they post it in the dev forum). Then we can discuss how to best communicate in the future.

I'm not sure if the value of a thread is as low as you say, but I will trust your judgement. I'll be certain to make sure that is what happens next.

Best of luck with your mod.

And you too. For all I know, this one we're working on is a damp squib, and even if it's not, you guys are the mothers of WW Total war games. Your work's an inspiration and an example to the whole fandom, so best of fortune to you too.

EDIT: Looking again, I'm guessing you fear that "No TGW for FOTS" will be interpreted as "No WW1 mod for FOTS"? Say if so, we can change the name to be clearer.

Thank you. On behalf of the "WWI/the Great War for FOTS" mod, I will take you up on your offer.

I can't understate that we are thankful for your patience and understanding, especially with this disruption. I'm sorry for the bother this has caused, and I hope the hunting remains good.

A thread title of "TGW for FOTS" in this sub-forum is misleading, that's why I changed the title.
And why I closed the thread was to avoid further arguments, everyone had there answer and yet the thread was entering into bad water.

And we as a mod team can sympathize with the problems of dealing with rowdy fans. We just are obliged to investigate, and the fact that King Sama's ultimatum was clearly directed at us, that we had posted a link to our mod on the thread, and that it was closed before we could properly respond because of actions that our mod members were not responsible for made us feel obliged to check up.

To be quite frank I had no idea there was a WW1 mod for FOTS underway, nor did I know any of said mods team members were part of that thread.

I hear; however we did post a link to our mod thread in progress, on the final page right above the ultimatum. I can understand how it might have been overlooked (we aren't the most impressive bunch yet, to say the least), but that doesn't change the fact that it was there, or how it was perceived by a goodly number of our members and hanger-ons.

Everyone was told on multiple occasions we have no interest in making TGW for FOTS right now, everyone was told that after that answer was given if anyone wanted to work with us on their prospective FOTS WW1 mod that given proof of hard work and providing the mod and its team shows promise then we would consider helping. As Sama has said.

Exactly my point; that is your right of reply. The issue came because Sama gave the ultimatum demanding proof of progress and actual work before the thread was closed- almost certainly directed at ours in particular from our view- and that it was closed while we were in the process of replying, because of misdeeds that were not tied to the conduct of our members and fans. That is why we as a team- and I personally- felt we had to investigate the reasons why, and seek a clarification that it did not happen because we were lazy bums or had passed some hypothetical deadline. Which from our perspective might well be assumed if there was no public explanation of it.

As you can see the last post even with this in mind just continues an issue I have no interest in entering, hence the reason that thread was closed and this one will be too.

And that is your right, and I have no quibble with it. I only have a problem with the (unintentional) implication that it happened because we could not or would not meet King Sama's ultimatum, either because of incompetence, or sloth, or bad will towards this mod, which we have none.

In the interest of fairness I'll let you post a reply, then I will close this thead. In future as Sama also said, PM us if your subject is that of inter-team modding business.

I thank you for the opportunity, and I have finished doing so.

That was always my intention in terms of communication. It was just that the unique circumstances involving the closure of the thread and our mod made us believe it crucial for a public explanation to be sought. I will see to it that all future communications regarding our mod will be sent to your team through the appropriate channels, and in the appropriate medium.

I'm sorry for everyone's time, and the hassle this has caused. We thank you for your patience, the cooperation you have afforded us, and the exoneration I posted here to obtain.

I hope that we will prove worthy of such trust. Until then, you can lock 'er up. This has served its' purpose.

[King Sama]

Would you have preferred us to open up a duplicate/second thread? Because we will take this in confidence for future reference.

No, as stated if you want to set up a thread here it would have to be discussed with the team first.

2. The fact remains that while the thread was not of our mod team's making, the message you gave most deliberately was.

Yes, but the problem comes from the fact that while the thread did not represent our mod, the *ultimatum* you gave did, given that it was addressed to us.

It was a message to anyone interested in a ww1 mod for FOTS, and most of it wasn't even specific to that. It certainly was not directed at your team, and as you see from the thread, you aren't the only ones interested in such a mod. In fact, I didn't even know you had a team together when I wrote that.

I'm sorry, but we would beg to differ, but that does not mean that was your intent. Much like I imagine how many might take what I am saying as that (and I can understand why, and apologize).

The only way that, in my mind, closing the thread could be considered rude, was if that was the only method of communication. So no, I don't consider it to have been inherently rude either in intent or expression. However, I can see how it might be perceived as such if you thought we wanted to discuss there (had you posted anything, we probably would have responded elsewhere).

A last chance whose wording all but exclusively signaled out our mod and our team as the subject? If need be, I can provide a direct quotation if need be, but it's hard to see its' intended audience as being ambiguous or as wide as you imply here.

There are many people who could produce "a screenshot or some evidence of progress for our review". I realize that you may have taken this as a direct call, but as I said I wasn't aware that your mod had even progressed beyond a proposal. It was meant for anyone willing to take up the challenge of making the mod to speak up, and for everyone else to let it go.

I'm not sure if the value of a thread is as low as you say, but I will trust your judgement. I'll be certain to make sure that is what happens next.

In terms of inter-team modding business (as Mitch said), it's generally better to discuss where a) we can't be interrupted and b) we don't raise confusion or false hopes.

EDIT: I guess Mitch closed the thread. Turtler, if you have any more concerns feel free to PM me, though I hope the issue is settled.

[.Mitch.]

A thread title of "TGW for FOTS" in this sub-forum is misleading, that's why I changed the title.
And why I closed the thread was to avoid further arguments, everyone had there answer and yet the thread was entering into bad water.

To be quite frank I had no idea there was a WW1 mod for FOTS underway, nor did I know any of said mods team members were part of that thread.

Everyone was told on multiple occasions we have no interest in making TGW for FOTS right now, everyone was told that after that answer was given if anyone wanted to work with us on their prospective FOTS WW1 mod that given proof of hard work and providing the mod and its team shows promise then we would consider helping. As Sama has said.

As you can see the last post even with this in mind just continues an issue I have no interest in entering, hence the reason that thread was closed and this one will be too.

In the interest of fairness I'll let you post a reply, then I will close this thead. In future as Sama also said, PM us if your subject is that of inter-team modding business.

[BigDogDavis]

I didn't really feel any harsh feelings towards the thread being closed. I was more offended because I thought they were implying I was demanding them to make one, then again I might have read it wrong.