The Blacksmith

[Wizad]

How many of you build the blacksmith line?

I almost never build them myself because it seems like a waste of turns while I also could be upgrading farms and the barracks. Having more units available to recruit from a higher level barracks means that you can build up an army in half the time. Having a higher level farms gives you more money to support standing armies.

However lately I've been thinking about the bonusses that the blacksmith gives, and it changed my perspective a bit. A Snaga Skirmisher getting a 50% increase in defense is huge.

1 Normally I wouldn't even recruit them because they are so weak. But with the bonus it might make them worthwhile. This means that the time required to build up an army is reduced as well, since I can recruit lower tier units as well.

2 Also the upkeep doesn't change, so you are actually reducing the cost for an effective army.

1 and 2 are both massive bonusses in a long campaign.

What's your opinion on the blacksmith? With factions gain the most out of it?
If you have any lesser known information about the armor upgrades, I can add it to my new guide:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...php?p=12418923

[DrDragun]

I usually make 1 or 2 blacksmith lines near the border of the war front. You can retrain your existing units at the blacksmith to upgrade their armor (even if that settlement can't train the unit... for example I can upgrade Swan Knight armor in Osgiliath). You definitely dont need one EVERYWHERE.

Keep in mind that if you retrain units by dragging unit cards together, they will lose their armor upgrades if either unit doesn't have it.

If I happen to get a Swordsmith Guild in a settlement I will make the Armorer line there too simply so my troops have a 1 stop retraining route.

[Mhaedros]

Wait, 50%? Does that apply to all units? Cos this would really make the Dwarves unstoppable

I usually don't upgrade units, but I've clearly been wrong in not doing so...Might have time to remedy that in my current campaign.

[DrDragun]

Wait, 50%? Does that apply to all units? Cos this would really make the Dwarves unstoppable

I usually don't upgrade units, but I've clearly been wrong in not doing so...Might have time to remedy that in my current campaign.

I think it adds +2 or +3 armor to most units, which has the biggest impact on lower tier units. It definitely does not add +11 to Ironguards...

[cahaya]

Blacksmiths add a worthy bonus to most low-tier and some mid-tier units, and the Blacksmith upgrade in Mail is the most common upgrade for these units. As mentioned above, the addition of armor (and experience chevrons) boosts many low-tier units to almost mid-tier unit numbers, but the upkeep is considerably less. I will retrain these units by shuffling high experience into lower experience units and retrain the 'cadre' high-experience unit at a location near the front that also has a blacksmith. Advanced armories (plate and partial plate) usually aren't necessary early on because these apply to upper-tier well armored units and these advanced armories will probably be well in your rear areas by the time you can build them; instead, you may capture them at some of the key locations and objectives on the map (e.g., Minas Tirith, Isengard and other cities/citadels) later in the game and do your upgrading right on the front rather than pay massive maintenance costs by moving units to the rear areas for armor retraining.

So, yes, I build blacksmiths in locations where I recruit units and look for locations to capture that will have blacksmiths and advanced armories in them.

[FC Groningen]

Depends on the situation. If I can spare it, I invest it near or inside the recruitment centers, but only if nothing takes priority over it. Usually with an agressive campaign strategy, there is plenty of money to go around, assuming you didn't bury yourself in debts already.

[mondpeiler]

at the start of a game I point out an amroury-center, where I build it and then retrain my troops there, but later if I have money, I build it everywhere.
BUT: I'm not sure, if it is worthits costs.
many units have only one step to upgrade and that doesn't improove the unit much. snagas may be an exception.

[Bowmaster]

I make them, though only after I've built some other, more important buildings, like Barracks, Ports, Mines, Markets, Farms etc.

[Coldfire88]

How many of you build the blacksmith line?

I almost never build them myself because it seems like a waste of turns while I also could be upgrading farms and the barracks. Having more units available to recruit from a higher level barracks means that you can build up an army in half the time. Having a higher level farms gives you more money to support standing armies.

However lately I've been thinking about the bonusses that the blacksmith gives, and it changed my perspective a bit. A Snaga Skirmisher getting a 50% increase in defense is huge.

1 Normally I wouldn't even recruit them because they are so weak. But with the bonus it might make them worthwhile. This means that the time required to build up an army is reduced as well, since I can recruit lower tier units as well.

2 Also the upkeep doesn't change, so you are actually reducing the cost for an effective army.

1 and 2 are both massive bonusses in a long campaign.

What's your opinion on the blacksmith? With factions gain the most out of it?
If you have any lesser known information about the armor upgrades, I can add it to my new guide:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...php?p=12418923

Even unarmored snaga have their uses. As for smiths, I build them, but their not priority, priority for me is: economy, training buildings, smiths, culture buildings, anything else, and if there is a unrest problem then happiness buildings becomes first.

[ElvenKind]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

PLUS ARMOUR UPGRADE =

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Mhaedros]

I think it adds +2 or +3 armor to most units, which has the biggest impact on lower tier units. It definitely does not add +11 to Ironguards...

Thought so

[Deceneus]

The armor upgrades have been deconstructed through testing. The general consensus for the armor upgrades appears to be:

Armor 1 upgrade = +4
Armor 2 upgrade = +1
Armor 3 upgrade = +2
Armor 4 upgrade = +1
Armor 5 upgrade = +1

Note: the game only shows +1 for all these levels but the actual results in combat are above.

Second the combat engine creates a percent chance of kill and part of the equation is reported to be:

( 1.2 ^ (attack+bonus-defense))

So if your weapon is +2 and your bonus is 6, the difference of +4 armor is the difference between a 4.3 multiplier and a 2.07 multiplier. That basically cuts in half the kill rate of early units.

So a lot of math to suggest that the leather tanners are worth building. The numbers drop for the armor upgrades after that. That is because the weapon values are usually higher as the game progresses and the increase of the armor upgrades much lower.

[Alkarin]

Woah woah woah. So you are saying the first armour upgrade actually increases armour by +4?

[Wizad]

For the exact mechanics surrounding the armor upgrades, I advice people to follow the link in the OP.

I believe the first armor upgrade sets the armor to 4, instead of giving +4.

So a unit with 0 armor gains +4 from the upgrade to a total of 4.
A unit with 1 armor gains +3 from the upgrade to a total of 4.
A unit with 2 armor gains +2 from the upgrade to a total of 4.
A unit with 3 armor gains +1 from the upgrade to a total of 4.

A unit with 4 armor is not eligible for the padded upgrade. Instead the first upgrade they can receive is the chainmail(?) that boosts armor to 6.

From what I've read, that's how it works. I'm not sure though and I advice people to discuss the mechanics in this thread:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...php?p=12418923

So far people tend to build blacksmiths, but only 1 person prioritizes it over other buildings.
At what turn do you try to specialize a recruitment center? At what turn do you try to have the 2nd tier blacksmith?

[Deceneus]

For the exact mechanics surrounding the armor upgrades, I advice people to follow the link in the OP.

I believe the first armor upgrade sets the armor to 4, instead of giving +4.

So a unit with 0 armor gains +4 from the upgrade to a total of 4.
A unit with 1 armor gains +3 from the upgrade to a total of 4.
A unit with 2 armor gains +2 from the upgrade to a total of 4.
A unit with 3 armor gains +1 from the upgrade to a total of 4.

A unit with 4 armor is not eligible for the padded upgrade. Instead the first upgrade they can receive is the chainmail(?) that boosts armor to 6.

From what I've read, that's how it works. I'm not sure though and I advice people to discuss the mechanics in this thread:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...php?p=12418923

So far people tend to build blacksmiths, but only 1 person prioritizes it over other buildings.
At what turn do you try to specialize a recruitment center? At what turn do you try to have the 2nd tier blacksmith?

The total war thread you linked to treats it as a +4. Consider me in that camp. And a reminder, only units with an upgrade in the EDU are upgradeable. And the submods are very different on this. So some factions can take advantage of the smiths building more than others. Dale can really use the tanner smith but doesn't have as many units that can take advantage of the blacksmith level. Gondor seems to be the opposite.

The AOR sub submod does something interesting in that it gives a market bonus for the tanner and blacksmith levels. I really liked that. Personally, I have tried to modify each building tree to make them all worthwhile to build. Basically to make it a hard choice instead of the predefined order of the vanilla game.

Bascially, you can give a 3% cash back of the building cost to any of the market or income buildings. I do that for the smith buildings as well. This makes it more difficult to prioritize other buildings over this one.

[FC Groningen]

Depends on the factions as well. Factions like Gondor and Mordor have several settlements that start out large and with plenty of facilities as well. A lot of factions start with 1 major settlement or none at all. Again, for me it also depends on whether that faction allows quick expansion (means more money) or not. Considering that the average faction has 1 major settlement to recruit in, I'd say that I'd like to have the final tier of barracks constructed around turn 60, possibly earlier if the money allows me and having the 2nd tier or black smith ready before the barracks event takes place. Assuming I can rush some faction off the map to fill the coffers.