Holocaust denial/historic revisionism

[Visna]

First, I apologize if this is in the wrong section.

I would like to know what you think about the Holocaust. There has been a lot of hype, especially in the Arab world, about how the Holocaust is all a big scam to justify Jewish claims to land and security. This has been partly aided by western 'historians' such as David Irving and Richard Harwood. And with the last survivors of the 'alledged death camps' dying a natural death these days, the last eyewitnesses to these horrifying events in human history will soon be gone. Making it even easier to give these theories a shimmer of intellectual integrity.
Edit. Added poll.

[removeduser_487563287433]

It's rubbish.

[Rhah]

What Ferrets said, basically.

There was a pretty extensive topic on it in the Vestigia Vetustatis forum

Here's the link

[dr0p]

It's rubbish.

Great news then!
Sec, let me call my grandfather and tell him his family is actually alive!

[Tostig]

Of course it happened, of course it shouldn't be forgotten.

Surely it can be forgiven though? It was interesting to note the reaction in Germany to suggestions that their peacekeeping troops could be used in Lebanon, where they might come into conflict with Israeli armed forces.

But what is History? History is an attempt to build a narrative that fits into your worldview around the given facts. Although the facts are broadly agreed upon anything that is subsequently based on them, such as guilt and accountability, are just as open to interpretation as any legal trial.
There have been many terrible genocides throughout history. The only unique factors in the Holocaust were the industrialised method and the amount of publicity. It is so central to much of western thinking because of the latter. What do we care about Arminians? What do we care about the Serbs who were murdered in Jasenovac camp in Croatia during the same time frame? What do we care about the Tutsis and the Hutus until Holywood makes a film about them? Far, far too little.

[Ellin]

I don't think it actually happened in the size they say it happened.the germans had a war to fight-to busy to carry the jews to consentration camps and execute them(as i can remember 3,000,000men were on the front-who was guarding the jews?-).And as i recall from documentaries i have seen about the holocaust and nazis,the naz idiology-if what hitler wrote down can be called an ideology-was about prosecutions and driving the jews out of germany,not extermination.I believe that it happened in some level-but surely not 12milion jews exterminated-if that happened then none jew would have left alive in spain,italy,germany,poland,france,balkans,greece etc.

[Oswald von Wolkenstein]

I don't think it actually happened in the size they say it happened.the germans had a war to fight-to busy to carry the jews to consentration camps and execute them(as i can remember 3,000,000men were on the front-who was guarding the jews?-).And as i recall from documentaries i have seen about the holocaust and nazis,the naz idiology-if what hitler wrote down can be called an ideology-was about prosecutions and driving the jews out of germany,not extermination.I believe that it happened in some level-but surely not 12milion jews exterminated-if that happened then none jew would have left alive in spain,italy,germany,poland,france,balkans,greece etc.

Ellin -- just a quick response to your questions/comments.

Who were guarding the Jews? -- well in terms of "Germans" -- it was the Austrians - the Ostmark made up 10% of the Reich and Austrians comprised 10% or the army but the made up 30% of the manpower managing the camps. Why Austrians? Himmler thought some of them were mixed slavic blood so they should to the dirty work. A good deal of the rest of the work was carried out by Slavs: Osttruppen and Hiwis. But you are correct the Germans themselves did not have the manpower. Without the help of Poles, Ukranians, Russians, Romanians, Bulgarians, Lativians, Lithuanians, Hungarians, the holocaust would have never been possible on the scale it was. The French and Italians helps as well and hell, Arafat's grandfather, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem even sent a Palestinian Death Squad to Serbia to help with the killing. (The Danes, Dutch, and Norwegians largely resisted the Nazi's murderous designs. And the Finns just flat out refused them. In fact, Jewish FInnish units fighting along side Nazis on the Eastern Front help Sabbath in tents amoung SS Units.

So, what you're forgetting are the Osttruppen or Eastern Troops -- i.e. troops recruited from the Eastern conquests (not including Poland (at least not officially) and Hilfswilligen (Help Volunteers) -- that is, men from all of the East (including Poland) So Ukrainians, white russians etc. For example Kamanski's Belorussian Revolution Army (ROA) was primarily responsible for the liquidation of the Warsaw Ghetto -- Kamaniski was the only Eastern solider to get an SS command post but he made such a mess of Warsaw Himmler had him killed. Anyway -- that's where you're manpower came from.

I don't know where you got the number 12 million. I've never heard anyone claim that!

All parties involved have the number at about 6 million -- IMPORTANT that number is based on NAZI lists and numers of people they themselves claim to have killed. So it was probably more.

Also it's important to keep in mind that many of those murdered where just gunned down by Einsatzgruppen or in the case of Smolensk by SS units (2nd Panzer Totenkopf - just mowed down 10,000 in Smolensk) and some Wehrmacht units did the same particularly those with Commando Einsatzgruppen attatched.

Early in the war the Einsatzgruppen (Mission Groups) followed in the wake of the armies to murder men, women, and children. In other words, Nazi armies had embedded Genocidal Maniacs, instead of embedded reporters.The Einstazgruppen would have these Jewish men and boys as young as 7 dig massive graves (telleing them that they were digging defensive trenches.) The they would have the all line up andmachine gun them into the pit and bulldoz over it. (We have, of course, photographic evidence of this. One Officer wanted to get a picture of himself shooting an 8 year old in the face -- with a pile of a couple hundred corpses as a backdrop. (The Soviet NVKD units did simliar things BTW).

But having officers shooting toddlers soon turned out to be a use of manpower they couldn't afford. The Einstazgruppen operated early in the war and they used up a enormous amount of resources. So the Nazis decided they could do it cheaper with Cyclon B gas and they opened the the death camps in 1942. (Concentration camps had been in existence since the '30s but full scale death camps with gas chambers appear in either late '41 or early 42)


Anyway -- hope that answers some of your questions.

[Ellin]

Of course it happened, of course it shouldn't be forgotten.

Surely it can be forgiven though? It was interesting to note the reaction in Germany to suggestions that their peacekeeping troops could be used in Lebanon, where they might come into conflict with Israeli armed forces.

But what is History? History is an attempt to build a narrative that fits into your worldview around the given facts. Although the facts are broadly agreed upon anything that is subsequently based on them, such as guilt and accountability, are just as open to interpretation as any legal trial.
There have been many terrible genocides throughout history. The only unique factors in the Holocaust were the industrialised method and the amount of publicity. It is so central to much of western thinking because of the latter. What do we care about Arminians? What do we care about the Serbs who were murdered in Jasenovac camp in Croatia during the same time frame? What do we care about the Tutsis and the Hutus until Holywood makes a film about them? Far, far too little.

That's not the only point.Jewish people and the rest of the world blames only Germans for the Holocaust but if you take a look in history then do you know how many holocausts have occured?Firstly,the Egyptians slaughtered jews,then persians&babylonians,romans,byzantines and in more modern history-specificly in middle ages-many jews were killed in france,germany,austria,belgium etc in the time of the Plague and yet again jews were killed during the crucades with the blessing of the Pope.
The only reason to remember holocaust was that it happened during 20th century when we supposed we where more civilased than the past.

[Mikelus Trento]

The fact it is recent history, versus ancient history as your other examples are, is one difference. The size is another.

[Oswald von Wolkenstein]

That's not the only point.Jewish people and the rest of the world blames only Germans for the Holocaust but if you take a look in history then do you know how many holocausts have occured?Firstly,the Egyptians slaughtered jews,then persians&babylonians,romans,byzantines and in more modern history-specificly in middle ages-many jews were killed in france,germany,austria,belgium etc in the time of the Plague and yet again jews were killed during the crucades with the blessing of the Pope.
The only reason to remember holocaust was that it happened during 20th century when we supposed we where more civilased than the past.

Well -- we don't really have as much information about other mass killings and it is a fact that the Holocaust has the best press. Peoople have spent a lot of money to bring the story to you. Those who died under Stalin, Pol Pot or Imperial Japan don't have PR like that. But it's more than that -- the Holocaust is so much about self-destruction -- modern Germany was Jewish - in so many ways -- the Holocaust is unique and suprememly horrific -- although I do realize that such an estimation doesn't mean much to those who were murdered -- in any context.

[Rhah]

Great news then!
Sec, let me call my grandfather and tell him his family is actually alive!

I think you misinterpreted what he said. He meant that "holocaust denial" is rubbish.


at least, thats what I think he meant anyway..... :hmmm:

[John Wayne]

Great news then!
Sec, let me call my grandfather and tell him his family is actually alive!

I swear, people just don't understand Ferrets sarcasm theese days.

Oh and it happened, just ask Mel Brooks!

[dr0p]

I swear, people just don't understand Ferrets sarcasm theese days.

The holocaust is not something to joke around about...

[John Wayne]

The holocaust is not something to joke around about...

Of course not, but was Ferrets makeing a funny? No, he was not. Lighten up a little bit.

And why is the Holocoust viewed as the "Most Evil Event in Current History" by so many? Stalin's purges were far worse in scope and destruction, yet they are given as much light as an Amsterdam Brothel.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Great news then!
Sec, let me call my grandfather and tell him his family is actually alive!

Holocaust denial is rubbish, you silly sod.

[Lord Bohemond]

Its all about ideology.

-It is ideologically satisfying to discredit Jesus - hence the myth that he married his mother.

-It is ideologically satisfying to believe white man didn't create high civilization in North Africa - hence the myth that the ancient Egyptians and Carthaginians were black.

-It is ideologically satisfying to discredit the Jews - hence the myth that the holocaust never happened.


Repeat a lie often enough, and people will begin to believe it.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Its all about ideology.

-It is ideologically satisfying to discredit Jesus - hence the myth that he married his mother.

-It is ideologically satisfying to believe white man didn't create high civilization in North Africa - hence the myth that the ancient Egyptians and Carthaginians were black.

-It is ideologically satisfying to discredit the Jews - hence the myth that the holocaust never happened.


Repeat a lie often enough, and people will begin to believe it.

The Ancient Egyptians and Carthiginians were hardly caucasian.

[Lord Bohemond]

The Ancient Egyptians and Carthiginians were hardly caucasian.

Carthiginians were phoenicians (BTW - White =/= Caucasian. Just because someone is white doesn't mean he's descended from the population in the Caucasian tribes. :wink: )

[removeduser_487563287433]

Carthiginians were phoenicians (BTW - White =/= Caucasian. Just because someone is white doesn't mean he's descended from the population in the Caucasian tribes. :wink: )

Well, the ancient Egyptians were what are now called Coptics (debatable, but we are talking thousands of years ago) and the Carthiginians were Phoenicians, who originated in Palestine and Lebanon. Sure, they weren't negroes but we're not talking white skin and fair hair.

[MaximiIian]

Carthiginians were phoenicians. BTW - White =/= Caucasian. Just because someone is white doesn't mean he's descended from the population in the Caucasian tribes.

They were neither white nor black. They were of a brown complexion, not too different from arabic peoples of today. I mean, look at the region they were in.
Saying that they were white people is just as innaccurate as saying that they were black people.