Tolkien General Discussion II

[Ngugi]

The lack of understanding for the word inspiration always keep on to surprise me when people talk about Tolkien's creation. Endorce a dictionary, please
Now, with that said...


Variags in Tolkien's world has nothing to do with horses, we know nothing about the people beside the name, and that they come from Khand - actually the only two known Easterling words post-First Age - thus not their looks, gear, fighting style: nothing.

Personally I think JRR has used a free mix of easterling inspiration from a historic Brittish perspective, where about everyone are easterlings until America is found, as well as inspiration from elswhere - and to try to say "JRR's Easterlings look like X" is presumably as menaningful as to say "All Asian look like Russians". Easterling is not an etnicity [clearly stated already in HoME 11: the Grey Annals or Silmarillion; Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin], and the descriptions we get are most likley intentionally very broad and unhelpful.
Presumably no named Easterling folk are even an in-world etnicity actually;

The Wainriders were a people, or a confederacy of many peoples, that came from the East; but they were stronger and better armed than any that had appeared before.
- Appendix A

This is just my own thoughts on his inspiration for what we have to work with;
Variags - name for sure from the Norsemen/Anglosaxon troops in Rome* as it is to obvious to be a "mistake" indeed but no opinion on any looks

Khand - A very "Eastern" name. It has connection to Indian names, while I personally rather think of Kand from Central Asia, found in the name Samarkand [kand = town or fort] for example

Wainriders - think it's from Biblical inspiration combined with historical knowledge: the Assyrians , the Babylonians, Philistines and Egyptians (and even the Israelites themselves) etc

Balchoth - we have nothing to go on with them; as it is a Sindar word it may be as useful for us as the term Easterling for anything (a.k.a useless)

24 So these people were then called in Gondor: a mixed word of popu­lar speech, from Westron balc "horrible" and Sindarin hoth "horde," applied to such peoples as the Orcs. [Author's note.]
- footnote, UT; Cirion and Eorl and the friendship of Condor and Rohan

Axemen - Think they are inspired by Vikings/Anglosaxons, while not Variags themselves;

The new host that we had tidings of has come first, from over the River by way of Andros, it is said. They are strong: battalions of Orcs of the Eye, and countless companies of Men of a new sort that we have not met before. Not tall, but broad and grim, bearded like dwarves, wielding great axes. Out of some savage land in the wide East they come, we deem.
- Ingold, RotK; The Siege of Gondor

Think that's all we got


Either way it rule out nothing, as when it comes to inspiration Tolkien can pick parts from 20 different peoples if he liked to to make up one people of his own, meaning they are no IRL historic folk while also being all of them.
North- and East-European inspiration, Middle-eastern and central Asia inspiration, it is safest to be open to any inspiration since there are nothing useful to go on - and avoid claiming any "truths". As example I think Variags have the name from the Norsemen/Anglosaxons but will not say they look or are [like] them - because it is just a theory. Likewise the "Axemen" sounds much like Norsemen/Anglosaxons to me but I can not say they are such. Or rohirrim, they have obvious inspiration from anglosaxons, but they are not "copy pasted anglosaxons", obvious trough their own presented culture, only inspired by anglosaxons.
It's not like the cultures are isolated either;

...[Gondor] gave [Northmen] wide lands beyond Anduin south of Greenwood the Great, to be a defence against men of the East.
In the days of Narmacil I their attacks began again, though at first with little force; but it was learned by the regent that the Northmen did not always remain true to Gondor, and some would join forces with the Easterlings, either out of greed for spoil, or in the furtherance of feuds among their princes.
- Appendix A

What about "swarthy" by the way? Well, we can, considering the meaning of the word at least around 1950, say that the Easterlings are like Greek or Italians based on that word hehe, or sunburned vikings, or persians, arabs, mongols etc. Again, it do not help, especially when Gondorians, Breelanders, Bëors folk, some branches of Hobbits etc are swarthy.


*I don't like to call is Byzantium since they never called it so

[knight of meh]

@muller you are mistaken on the origins of Varangians it is not a people in it's original form it translates to "pledge" and "companion" and it refers to the guard of the Byzantine emperor and to the almost exclusively military settlers of the Rus states and Volga area(most of them were vikings/swedes it seems from evidence) and so they were not men from the Volga they just happened to rule there for a while



in relation to Umber and deserts being nearby two things to consider Harondor was described as a "desert" region whether that means no water or no people is open to interpretation

and the deserts of Harad are mentioned in relation to far Harad

also Thangaror only the very tips of north africa isn't considered a desert , a desert is not somethnig to do with fertility it exclusively measures moisture per annum if you lose more moisture than you acquire in a year then you are in a desert

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wo...st_deserts.svg

[athanaric]

also Thangaror only the very tips of north africa isn't considered a desert , a desert is not somethnig to do with fertility it exclusively measures moisture per annum if you lose more moisture than you acquire in a year then you are in a desert

There's still large parts of the Atlas region that are decidedly not a desert, including rainfall and all that. That map is inaccurate.

[muller227]

@muller you are mistaken on the origins of Varangians it is not a people in it's original form it translates to "pledge" and "companion" and it refers to the guard of the Byzantine emperor and to the almost exclusively military settlers of the Rus states and Volga area(most of them were vikings/swedes it seems from evidence) and so they were not men from the Volga they just happened to rule there for a whil

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wo...st_deserts.svg

Umm!! not sure why you pointed this at me, I have made no comment about Varangians in any thread, ever. Might want too look back and PM the person you meant too address or remind me of something I said and have forgotten. The Varangian Guard by its latter stages anyway was largely recruited from Anglo/Saxons as a counter balance too Norman Expansion. Look to Runciman and his work on the Crusades. A contemporary at Oxford of Tolkien I do not think the famed Varangian Guard has any point in Tolkien's work whatsoever. Their is at no point anything referring to an oathbound alien Guard Unit whose commanders could be no threat too the throne. If you kind find such a reference to the Varangian Guard in Tolkien let me know, I have never seen anything that resembles this historical unit.

[knight of meh]

Umm!! not sure why you pointed this at me,.

sorry i got confused with all the people talking

There's still large parts of the Atlas region that are decidedly not a desert, including rainfall and all that. That map is inaccurate.

you have misunderstood me.. or maybe i have badly communicated my point i never said the map was accurate i just meant that it shows roughly the desert regions .

[Tureuki]

Ngugi

Are you saying is that non-canon ?

"Khand was under the influence of Mordor and supplied it with horses"

the word "Khand" at least historically has Sogdian origins, both used in Iranian languages and Turkic, its mean town, fort as you said.(later changed to village,small settlement at least in Turkish)

I think "Balchoth" is probably inspired from "Balouch" but we can't exactly say, same for Variags, its explained as a word from Harad language, thats why I'm saying we can't know if its an inspritation or a coincincidence.

[Ngugi]

@ Tureuki

Yes it is; until anyone can present and actual Tolkien source that is, which so far I never seen (while I've seen that stamenent presented over and over on the internet).
At best it can be suggested they had cavalry due to the second UT entry, but that can be nothing but a guess without reliability as the cavalry may belong to the Wainriders themselves (elsewhere it's stated their lords rode chariots, not that they lacked cavalry *) and other allied folks.
This is the info we have on them (yup, it's all); **

Many of the Wainriders now passed south of Mordor and made alliance with men of Khand and of Near Harad; and in this great assault from north and south, Gondor came near to destruction.
- about 1899-1944 Third Age, Appendix A; Annals of the Kings and Rulers: Gondor and the Heirs of Anárion

On the one hand they feared the might of Gondor, and knowing nothing of what passed west of Anduin they believed that its realm was larger and more populous than it was in truth at that time. On the other hand the eastern Wainriders had been spreading southward, beyond Mordor, and were in conflict with the peoples of Khand and their neighbours further south. Even­tually a peace and alliance was agreed between these enemies of Gondor, and an attack was prepared that should be made at the same time from north and south. (...)

But it was not so. The Wainriders had mustered a great host by the southern shores of the inland Sea of Rhûn, strengthened by men of their kinsfolk in Rhovanion and from their new allies in Khand. When all was ready they set out for Gondor from the East, moving with all the speed they could along the line of the Ered Lithui, where their approach was not observed until too late. So it came to pass that the head of the army of Gondor had only drawn level with the Gates of Mordor (the Morannon) when a great dust borne on a wind from the East announced the oncoming of the enemy vanguard. This was composed not only of the war-chariots of the Wainriders but also of a force of cavalry far greater than any that had been expected.
- same period, Unfinished Tales; Cirion and Eorl and the friendship of Condor and Rohan

[The Witch-king] now was destroyed; but Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray; Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand, Southrons in scarlet, and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues.
(...)
East rode the knights of Dol Amroth driving the enemy before them: troll-men and Variags and orcs that hated the sunlight. South strode Éomer and men fled before his face, and they were caught between the hammer and the anvil.
- RotK; The Battle of the Pelennor Fields

The lack of cavalry association from the War or the Ring do not encourage horse-related associations. ***

The case with Balchoth can not for sure be said to equal the case with Variags.
EDIT: There exist no Easterling (or Haradrim) language, meaning the name Variag can not be a result of a constructed language's grammar and/or dictionary; it can only be an intentional choice that is not inspired by the historical Variags/Varangians if we belive Tolkien lacked knowledge about them, considering his historical and linguistic interest that is less credible - while Balchoth being based on made up languages do not have to be based on RL material.
In their case it may be so that Tolkien intended the Anduanic-Sindarin speakers (Dúnedain) to talk about eastern wicked Men as "Horrible Horde", fitting other generic associations to "hordes from the east" as Huns, Mongols, Turks etc. Which in the made up languages ackording to wordlist and grammar ends up to be Balchoth, unrelated to Balouch.
However I must say I find the connection to Balouch most intrigueing and wouldn't object to anyone claiminig it as as credible theory.

To my knowledge we have no reason to assume it was not the Khand inhabitants names in their own language; if to count them to Rhûn or Harad may then be another matter hehe

...

Of the speech of Men of the East and allies of Sauron all that appears is múmak, a name of the great elephant of the Harad.

A carbon copy F 4 is extant, and here my my father in a similar addition named beside múmak also Variag and Khand...
- HoME 12; The Appendix on Languages: Commentary

Based on geography and that Rhûn and Harad are subjective titles from the POV of the West I deem it more likley they are to be counted as Easterlings.


EDIT: *

They journeyed in great wains, and their chieftains fought in chariots.
- Appendix A

**
To my knowledge, that is.

***
By which I do certainly not mean they had no cavalry, only that we have no backing to say they were a horse-oriented folk

[mondpeiler]

I think the problem with claiming the Variags as a Horsepeople is too fast reading :

"...when a great dust borne on a wind from the East announced the oncoming of the enemy vanguard. This was composed not only of the war-chariots of the Wainriders but also of a force of cavalry far greater than any that had been expected."

first of all: the (acording to Ngugi) only quote we have about them speaks of the VANGUARD - not the whole army.
so maybe the core-army is on foot (only an assumtion).

second: the cavalry force is not described as "great" but only as "greater than expected" - what can mean everything or nothing at all.
it could be out of military reconnaissance... Gondor maybe simply expected less cavalry.

so in the end all is guessing.

[Ngugi]

Indeed mondpeiler, especially as, as I point at in the last post, we do not even know if men from Khand* is part of the mounted forces.

Possibly the Variags, if they even existed at this time, did not participate in the alliance with the Wainriders, we shall remember that just as with Rhûn and Harad Khand is a region with different folks - I do personally not as they are not ever mentioned before the War or the Ring.
My underlining:

...Wainriders had been spreading southward, beyond Mordor, and were in conflict with the peoples of Khand...
- UT

Khandish peoples as horse-oriented folks have but the weakest theoretic foundation, Variags even less.
Again, that do not mean they had or used not horses, naturally.

Who may be our riders then?

Many of the Wainriders now passed south of Mordor and made alliance with men of Khand and of Near Harad;
- Appendix A

The Wainriders had mustered a great host by the southern shores of the inland Sea of Rhûn, strengthened by men of their kinsfolk in Rhovanion and from their new allies in Khand. When all was ready they set out for Gondor from the East, moving with all the speed they could along the line of the Ered Lithui, where their approach was not observed until too late.
...a great dust borne on a wind from the East announced the oncoming of the enemy vanguard. This was composed not only of the war-chariots of the Wainriders but also of a force of cavalry far greater than any that had been expected.
- UT

As far as we can tell from this we still have no argument that the cavalry consisted of anything beside Wainrider* cavalry**. Perhaps Wainrider kinsfolk cavalry - but it's the most reasonable standpoint to assume least parts of the Khandish peoples forces would be mounted and therefore presumably also in the vanguard we know of.
Such a guess is the most reliable guess that can be made, if one want to belive Khand contributed also cavalry and not only with footfolk - though it simply open up the possibility of cavalry for Khand, it do not in any way support the fan fiction argument that they were/are 'mounted folk(s)'.

The main host of the Wainrider's coalition clearly consisted of other than cavalry:

[The Gondorian] Minohtar took command. He was a man both valiant an warwise. The first fury of the onslaught was spent, with far less loss and greater success than the enemy had looked for. The cavalry and chariots now withdrew, for the main host of the Wainriders was approaching.
(...)

When the main host of the Wainriders advanced to the attack it was then two hours after noon, and Minohtar had withdrawn his line to the head of the great North Road of Ithilien, half a mile beyond the point where it turned east to the Watch-towers of the Morannon. The first triumph of the Wainriders was now the beginning of their undoing. Ignorant of the numbers and ordering of the defending army they had launched their first onslaught too soon, before the greater part of that army had time out of the narrow land of Ithilien, and the charge of their chariots and cavalry had met with a success far swifter and more overwhelming than they had expected. Their main onslaught as then too long delayed, and they could no longer use their greater numbers with full effect according to the tactics they had intended, being accustomed to warfare in open lands. It may well be supposed that elated by the fall of the King and the rout of a large part of the opposing Centre, they believed that they had already overthrown the defending army, and that their own main army had little more to do than advance to the invasion and occupation of Gondor. If that were so, they were deceived.
- UT

This may of course be read as "all the other cavalry not making up the vanguard and only such", but I leave that out as a strech interpetation.
Why the rest of the army could not rapidly follow if all mounted is somewhat odd and apperently the chariots and cavalry is mentioned as something else than the "main army".


* I assume nobody belive only their chieftains had horses and the rest of the armed forces were footfolk?

They journeyed in great wains, and their chieftains fought in chariots.
- Appendix A

** Note that it is easy to read .

..not only of the war-chariots of the Wainriders but also of a force of cavalry...

as a description telling us that not only were there Wainrider chariots in place but also Wainrider [as in that specific, named group] cavalry in place - it do not have to include either their kinsfolks or Khand troops at all.
It is the less likley reading, but in no way incorrect and should be seriously mentioned.

[Krieglord]

Ngugi are you secretly stephen colbert?

Skip ahead to 5:35

[Ngugi]

That was hilarious

[mondpeiler]

yeah Ngugi, what leads us to the question: are all the wainriders riding wains?

we do not even know this.

all we know is, the people of Gondor called them so. why? because they had a special weapon which was new to the Gondorians: the chariot.
(I think, we can be pretty sure, the wainriders didn't call themselves so, because for them it wouldn't have been special to ride a wain.)
but that doesn't even mean that the main part of the army consisted of wains.
A) the amount of chariots (and other cavalry) in their army could be hughe [50-80%] - for it seems they where a steppe folk (if so, it would be quite logical).
B) but they could also be a folk from far more east and perhaps not of steppe-origin. in this case the amount of cavalry would be far less [only nobles (referd to in quote) so maybe only 10-20%].

I'm not quite sure, but personally I tend to a mixture between A and B. I think it would be a bit over the top to thionk, that all "wainriders" rode wains...

(
just some examples of how people called their enemies in RL:
- Vikings (=Raiders) | wheren't even one folk: Norwegians, Danes, Frisians - and not every "viking" that came to Britain was a real viking/raider, some where settlers, some merchants.
- Krauts (=Germans) | not every German eats Kraut [and obviously, not everyone who eats Kraut is a German]
)

So in the end, I think the core of the eastern army was in deed on foot. that's why the vanguard was too fast and the main army followed to slowly to use the momentum against Gondor.

[Vankar]

does anyone know which was the relationship between the orcs and the men of the East ?

We all know they were all part of Saruon's army but I find hard to imagine Orcs and Man standing side by side, even though they were Easterlings, Haradrim or Variags ecc ecc...

Then, they were under the command of Who? and Orc? a Man? there has never been a conflict between east men and Orcs ?

Thanks,

[knight of meh]

to the best of my knowledge they kept there own leaders under the big baddies

so in the first age Ulfang the black leads his men while orcs lead theirs all under Morgoth

i think this would have happened under the witchking when he took up residence in Angmar

and the best example is the war of the ring the haradrim were like a separate block of the army iirc

and that makes sense in my head the good thing about orcs is that they are savage with lots of numbers and the good thing about men in general is they have descent equipment and most of all discipline , you ruin all of these advantages except for the orc numbers (which would be less effective with men interspersed between them) if you mix the troops

[muller227]

to the best of my knowledge they kept there own leaders under the big baddies

so in the first age Ulfang the black leads his men while orcs lead theirs all under Morgoth

i think this would have happened under the witchking when he took up residence in Angmar

and the best example is the war of the ring the haradrim were like a separate block of the army iirc

and that makes sense in my head the good thing about orcs is that they are savage with lots of numbers and the good thing about men in general is they have descent equipment and most of all discipline , you ruin all of these advantages except for the orc numbers (which would be less effective with men interspersed between them) if you mix the troops

I generally agree with this. Tolkien seems to express them as fighting common enemies seperately. Real humanity does in general not fight together well as allies. In the end it is about the bonds of a unit which tend too get very close and familial. British and American units seem to have done very well on a whole, compared too say German and Italian units. The bonding scheme could work well enough for say Gondor and Rohan which it really seems to have, while the Haradrim and orcs seem to have faced their enemies in sequence and not toghether., I do not think this an accident. The victory at Pelennor is largely explained by it, the coherent command structure of Mordor seems to have rested solely on the Witch King, (the only heroic sort of Sauron's generals aside from a Haradrim chieftan). After Angmar goes down Mordor clearly suffers it seems from rear echelon command compared to the heroism of the western lords leading and dying in defense of the White City.

I think the old trench soldier let out some personal angst at this point.

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

to the best of my knowledge they kept there own leaders under the big baddies

so in the first age Ulfang the black leads his men while orcs lead theirs all under Morgoth

i think this would have happened under the witchking when he took up residence in Angmar

and the best example is the war of the ring the haradrim were like a separate block of the army iirc

and that makes sense in my head the good thing about orcs is that they are savage with lots of numbers and the good thing about men in general is they have descent equipment and most of all discipline , you ruin all of these advantages except for the orc numbers (which would be less effective with men interspersed between them) if you mix the troops

I would beg to disagree about the Orcs being savages.In the Siege of Minas Tirith, and generally in cases under a feared and good commander, they seem to perform rather well, and act (Mostly) with discipline.

[Poosticks7]

I can quite easily imagine Sauron having agents whispering in the ears of the Harad, Easterling & Khandish chieftain's. Perhaps they served also as go betweens amongst the various commands. Or perhaps just to reinforce the chain of command. 'Follow the scary guy on the flying beastie, then that unassuming gentlemen lingering at the back, never take commands from Nazgul IV, he's an idiot.' etc.

[knight of meh]

I would beg to disagree about the Orcs being savages.In the Siege of Minas Tirith, and generally in cases under a feared and good commander, they seem to perform rather well, and act (Mostly) with discipline.

you have misinterpreted me or i haven't communicate very well when i said savage i meant that there strength lay in brute strength

and in the siege of Minas Tirith the orcs wern't disciplined they routed instead of standing and using there superior numbers to over come . the only hint of discipline i can think of is attacking the city in waves (movie or book not sure here) and the reinforcements obeying orders

[Thangaror]

you have misinterpreted me or i haven't communicate very well when i said savage i meant that there strength lay in brute strength

and in the siege of Minas Tirith the orcs wern't disciplined they routed instead of standing and using there superior numbers to over come . the only hint of discipline i can think of is attacking the city in waves (movie or book not sure here) and the reinforcements obeying orders

Well, in Middle-earth we have a "heroic" age were the Kings lead there armies from the front, much like the nobles from ~700 - 1200 AD and the germanic and celtic tribes before them.
There are literally countless examples of an army fleeing the field, because there King/General was killed. This phenomenon is quite easy to explain. First of all, the second in command simply cannot be near the supreme commander, else he'd die in pretty much the same moment. He either had to command one of the wings, or is stationed at the rear. However, if the supreme commander falls, he will not immediately know. If he learns of the events, he'll either be positioned on the far side of the army and therefore it's difficult to command the opposing wing, or he has to move in. In any case, there'll be a period of time were no one has the supreme command and the army will not act coherently, but instead in three or more parts.

Gothmog probably learned immediately that the WK was killed, but until he had figured out what to do and until his commands came into effect, it was quite late.

[Ngugi]

Well, in Middle-earth we have a "heroic" age were the Kings lead there armies from the front, much like the nobles from ~700 - 1200 AD and the germanic and celtic tribes before them.
There are literally countless examples of an army fleeing the field, because there King/General was killed. This phenomenon is quite easy to explain. First of all, the second in command simply cannot be near the supreme commander, else he'd die in pretty much the same moment. He either had to command one of the wings, or is stationed at the rear. However, if the supreme commander falls, he will not immediately know. If he learns of the events, he'll either be positioned on the far side of the army and therefore it's difficult to command the opposing wing, or he has to move in. In any case, there'll be a period of time were no one has the supreme command and the army will not act coherently, but instead in three or more parts.

Gothmog probably learned immediately that the WK was killed, but until he had figured out what to do and until his commands came into effect, it was quite late.

A reasonable argumentation, but I add that we shall remember that after the Rohirrim have made their charge(s) and after the WK is killed Gothmog is known to taken command, ordered the forces and turned tables so that the Gondor-Rohan coalition once again faced destruction.
To, in that situation, manage that, is from a tactical viewpoint most impressive.

It is not until the Black Ships arrive from the south proving to be filled with Gondorian forces that the battle is finally lost.
Seemingly it is the Orcs who broke (as was the "custom" of their race when in an unfavourable spot), not so Men, but if Gothmog at this time lost control over the army in general I'd say he already proven enough to not be poorly judged for this situation that was not for Gothmog possible to forsee and thus not realistic to successfully counter-act [one more time]:

... But the hosts of Mordor were seized with bewilderment, and a great wizardry it seemed to them that their own ships should be filled with their foes; and a black dread fell on them, knowing that the tides of fate had turned against them and their doom was at hand.

East rode the knights of Dol Amroth driving the enemy before them: troll-men and Variags and orcs that hated the sunlight. South strode Éomer and men fled before his face, and they were caught between the hammer and the anvil. For now men leaped from the ships to the quays of the Harlond and swept north like a storm.

... Hard fighting and long labour they had still; for the Southrons were bold men and grim, and fierce in despair; and the Easterlings were strong and war-hardened and asked for no quarter. And so in this place and that, by burned homestead or barn, upon hillock or mound, under wall or on field, still they gathered and rallied and fought until the day wore away.

- RotK; The Battle of the Pelennor Fields