Tolkien General Discussion II

[smoesville]

I have a question for you, why did Gil-Gilad refuse to treat with Sauron when he came to him? Did Sauron actually say who he was and just played up the fact that he had repented to the Valar? Or was it a more instinctual thing on Gil-Gilads part where he just didn't like the look of him or to paraphrase Sam; he looked fair but felt foul.

[Ngugi]

Men he found the easiest to sway of all the peoples of the Earth; but long he sought to persuade the Elves to his service, for he knew that the Firstborn had the greater power; and he went far and wide among them, and his hue was still that of one both fair and wise. Only to Lindon he did not come, for Gil-galad and Elrond doubted him and his fair-seeming, and though they knew not who in truth he was they would not admit him to that land.
- Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

[conon394]

There is another quote somewhere and I think it really carried weight is that Galadriel she could not remember any Ainur like who Saroun claimed to be. There were not all that many Noldor exiles left (and unlikely anyone but Maglor of Her stature and lore) and I think the fact she did not recognize S's disguise must have also tipped the balance of the doubts of Elrond and Gil Galad.

[smoesville]

Thanks Ngugi and Conan

On another note, i was reading about Eorl in the Appendices and i noticed this;

Men said of them that Béma (whom the Eldar call Oromë)...

It made me wonder, is it listed anywhere what the different names of the Valar for the peoples of ME. As in do Dale call Oromë something else again? What are the other Gods known as to the Middlemen? Also, though this may be impossible to tell, what are the Westron names of the Gods, or are they one and the same of that of the Northmen?

[Ngugi]

@ conon'
Indirectly found in UT AFAIK, but if anything more precise it's from a HoME perhaps?

@ smoesville
To my knowledge Oromë is the only Vala who have a name in the tongues of Men. The only other name not in the tongues of Ainur or Elves ought to be Mahal for Aulë, but that's Khuzdul naturally

[smoesville]

Did any of the Middlemen have contact with the Valar (Vala is singular right?)? Obviously the Edain would have since they marched when they were called and of course they would have used the Elven terms for them.

[Thangaror]

I doubt it. Oromë hasn't shown up in ME since the Elves marched west. At this time Men for sure had not awoken. Maybe they had contact with Ossë, Uínen and, huge maybe, Ulmo.

[smoesville]

So how would the Men of ME (those not of the Edain) have come to know Oromë? Were the Rohirrim just passing down the legend from when the Valar marched, though that begs the question of how they could have known them since they would have refused the call to arms.

[Lortano]

So how would the Men of ME (those not of the Edain) have come to know Oromë? Were the Rohirrim just passing down the legend from when the Valar marched, though that begs the question of how they could have known them since they would have refused the call to arms.

It could be that they know him and perhaps worshipped him in the distant past. The Rohirrim love their horsemen, and Orome is Lord of the Hunt. It sort of makes sense that the two would go together, although I don't have any sourced material to prove that.

NGUGI!

[Ngugi]

Apperently still during the Second Age Oromë still on occation rode in Middle-earth. This is said by Aldarion (ca 700-1098), heir of the king of Númenor, to his wife.

"I will," said Aldarion. "It shall be as soon as I return, it you will wait." But seeing the grief in her face he was moved, and a thought came to him. "It shall be now," he said. "It shall be before this year is done. And then I will fit out such a ship as the Venturers made never yet, a Queen's house on the water. And you shall sail with me, Erendis, under the grace of the Valar, of Yavanna and of Oromë whom you love; you shall sail to lands where I shall show you such woods as you have never seen, where even now the Eldar sing; or forests wider than Númenor, free and wild since the beginning of days, where still you may hear the great horn of Oromë the Lord."
- UT; Aldarion and Elendris

Whcih is quite in line with his character;

Oromë is a mighty lord. If he is less strong than Tulkas, he is more dreadful in anger; whereas Tulkas laughs ever, in sport or in war, and even in the face of Melkor he laughed in battles before the Elves were born. Oromë loved the lands of Middle-earth, and he left them unwillingly and came last to Valinor; and often of old he passed back east over the mountains and returned with his host to the hills and the plains.
- Valaquenta

[smoesville]

That makes sense, it also explains why of all the Valar he is named by the Middle Men of ME.

[Zimmy]

I have a question about Unfinished Tales, we know that the Druedain had statues that inspired fear in orcs, and they did not pass unless in great numbers. Why is this? There's also the thing about one of them leaving a statue to guard a man of Brethil, and the statue killed the orcs and stamped out their fire, and later when the Druedain came back he had burned feet.

Is it one of those 'subtle magic' things that are sometimes in the books?

[Krieglord]

About Sarumans ring

On this site http://scifi.stackexchange.com/quest...-sarumans-ring a user is citing T, The Treason of Isengard, (HoME 7), VI, note 28 as saying an earlier draft made Saruman's ring one of the 19

So Im guessing it was something supposed to have more significance that Tolkien changed his mind on.

And another user made a good point

As an aside, although Gandalf the Grey appeared subordinate to Saruman the White, Cirdan gave Gandalf this ring. (Gandalf himself says Saruman is greatest of their order; Cirdan sensed a greater good in Gandalf.)

However, as stated, Saruman at least temporarily defeated and imprisoned Gandalf, so Saruman's newly forged Ring must have been significantly powerful.

Sarumans ring must have been more powerful then Narya the Ring of Fire which is the ring given to gandalf http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Narya

Bringing up another point

Why didnt Saruman take Narya when Gandalf was at his weak point.

[Cyclops]

I think Elrond was fighting a very real war in Eriador, and was fully occupied with that, so much so he could only spare a couple of good men for a vital mission.

I think Gildor was on patrol, perhaps en route to black ops troll-slaying in the Blue Mountains, not frolicking and collecting butterflies.

He mentions "free companies" moving about Eriador which I suggest are essentially patrols.

...Sarumans ring must have been more powerful then Narya the Ring of Fire which is the ring given to gandalf ...

Saruman + his phony ring+ a fortress full of wargs, orcs, half orcs and evil men + assorted remnant Numenorean artifacts + surprise > Gandalf + narya + his scruples.

Saruman was Top Wizard in ME until Gandalf the White returned to confiscate his badge.

...Bringing up another point

Why didnt Saruman take Narya when Gandalf was at his weak point.

He didn't see it? Like Galadriel's ring was not seen.

Poor old Curunir, sitting in White Council meetings: "If only I had a Ring of Power to examine we could detonate Sauron by remote control and we'd be done. Anyone seen one?" The holders of the Three sit there whistling and twiddling their thumbs.

No wonder he turned to the dark side and made all those clones.

[Krieglord]

He didn't see it? Like Galadriel's ring was not seen.

Poor old Curunir, sitting in White Council meetings: "If only I had a Ring of Power to examine we could detonate Sauron by remote control and we'd be done. Anyone seen one?" The holders of the Three sit there whistling and twiddling their thumbs.

No wonder he turned to the dark side and made all those clones.

Im pretty sure its canon from unfinished tales he knew

"And the Grey Messenger [Gandalf] took the Ring, and kept it ever secret; yet the White Messenger [Saruman] (who was skilled to uncover all secrets) after a time became aware of this gift, and begrudged it, and it was the beginning of the hidden ill-will that he bore to the Grey, which afterwards became manifest."

And

[Cyclops]

Im pretty sure its canon from unfinished tales he knew

"And the Grey Messenger [Gandalf] took the Ring, and kept it ever secret; yet the White Messenger [Saruman] (who was skilled to uncover all secrets) after a time became aware of this gift, and begrudged it, and it was the beginning of the hidden ill-will that he bore to the Grey, which afterwards became manifest."

And

Fair enough, thats a clear hint.

If I could photoshop I'd alter a picture of Christopher Walken from Pulp Fiction and post it to suggest how Gandalf kept it secret and kept it safe.

[Gr1m_4c3]

There's a few possible explanations. Saruman may have known that Gandalf was given Narya, but not that he was wearing it. Alternatively, with Gandalf keeping it invisible, perhaps it was beyond Saruman's reach (The magics on the Three could be more subtle and increase one's ability to keep it hidden somehow...or maybe while Gandalf was Saruman's prisoner, Saruman still didn't risk letting himself get so close to Gandalf).

Or, considering Saruman was so actively searching for the One, maybe he didn't care - as soon as the One Ring was his he could bend Gandalf to his will anyway, after all.

[Ngugi]

It is possible Saruman did not see, or perhaps percived is a better word, the Red Ring.
Even if Saruman knew Gandalf owned ring it is not sure he would know it was in his posession at that moment.

[Galadriel:] 'Yet even so, as Ring-bearer and as one that has borne it on finger and seen that which is hidden, your sight is grown keener. You have perceived my thought more clearly than many that are accounted wise. You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine. And did you not see and recognize the ring upon my finger? Did you see my ring? ' she asked turning again to Sam.
'No, Lady,' he answered. `To tell you the truth, I wondered what you were talking about. I saw a star through your finger.'
- FotR;

However the most logical concept IMO would be that if Saruman would get his hand on the One and Gandalf still wore Narya Saruman would be able to control Gandalf trough the One. Narya could not help Gandalf escape, as such was not its powers and we know Saruman held the control as it already was, so it added no danger to let the Grey keep his Ring, while it opened for potential gain to let him keep it, as Saruman hoped to soon have the One in his posession.

Against the idea that Saruman would been able to make a Great Ring stands that Tolkien never supported the idea and complelty ignored Saruman's Ring beside one single line.
It is never mentioned anywhere else, even in letters or notes discussing Rings.

[Thangaror]

while it opened for potential gain to let him keep it, as Saruman hoped to soon have the One in his posession.

No, in the SA, the Elves perceived Sauron and new his plans when he put the One on his finger. Henceforth they didn't use any of the Three. There's no doubt they wouldn't have done the same later.

So, leaving Narya with Gandalf doesn't make any sense. Even if Saruman would've obtained the One, he wouldn't have gained power over the Three. I'm not even sure, if the Nazgûl would've turned to him, because for what I remember, Sauron had taken the Nine back and stored in Barad-dûr.

[Ngugi]

Should be the most credible situation, however I argue they knew Sauron because he activly tried to control them trough teh One, not by default because he simply wore it; or Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond would been aware of Bilbo and Frodo using the One at once before Gandalf had to make his test confirming what Ring it was.

The Nazgûl would not obeyed him at once, he would have needed time to gained mastery over the One before he could control the Nazgûl:

When Sauron was aware of the seizure of the Ring his one hope was in its power: that the claimant would be unable to relinquish it until Sauron had time to deal with him. Frodo too would then probably, if not attacked, have had to take the same way: cast himself with the Ring into the abyss. If not he would of course have completely failed. It is an interesting problem: how Sauron would have acted or the claimant have resisted. Sauron sent at once the Ringwraiths. They were naturally fully instructed, and in no way deceived as to the real lordship of the Ring. The wearer would not be invisible to them, but the reverse; and the more vulnerable to their weapons. But the situation was now different to that under Weathertop, where Frodo acted merely in fear and wished only to use (in vain) the Ring's subsidiary power of conferring invisibility. He had grown since then. Would they have been immune from its power if he claimed it as an instrument of command and domination?
Not wholly. I do not think they could have attacked him with violence, nor laid hold upon him or taken him captive; they would have obeyed or feigned to obey any minor commands of his that did not interfere with their errand – laid upon them by Sauron, who still through their nine rings (which he held) had primary control of their wills. That errand was to remove Frodo from the Crack. Once he lost the power or opportunity to destroy the Ring, the end could not be in doubt – saving help from outside, which was hardly even remotely possible. Frodo had become a considerable person, but of a special kind: in spiritual enlargement rather than in increase of physical or mental power; his will was much stronger than it had been, but so far it had been exercised in resisting not using the Ring and with the object of destroying it. He needed time, much time, before he could control the Ring or (which in such a case is the same) before it could control him; before his will and arrogance could grow to a stature in which he could dominate other major hostile wills.
...

The situation as between Frodo with the Ring and the Eight* might be compared to that of a small brave man armed with a devastating weapon, faced by eight savage warriors of great strength and agility armed with poisoned blades. The man's weakness was that he did not know how to use his weapon yet; and he was by temperament and training averse to violence. Their weakness that the man's weapon was a thing that filled them with fear as an object of terror in their religious cult, by which they had been conditioned to treat one who wielded it with servility.
- Letter 246

`I would ask one thing before we go,' said Frodo, `a thing which I often meant to ask Gandalf in Rivendell. I am permitted to wear the One Ring: why cannot I see all the others and know the thoughts of those that wear them? '
`You have not tried,' she said. `Only thrice have you set the Ring upon your finger since you knew what you possessed. Do not try! It would destroy you. Did not Gandalf tell you that the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor? Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others. ...'
- FotR; The