Tolkien General Discussion II

[Flinn]

Hi there

You need to be a little bit more specific, which age? the shape of Arda changed along the ages
when saying ME do you really mean it or just the western part of it? (that told of in the Lotr books)

As a general rule you can consider the ME to be a single continent, but a sole confirmed source for it's definitive shape is not available, as the matter is still under discussion and never fully clarified by Tolkien (just like with many other matters )

You might want to consider to look for the Atlas of Middle Earth by Karen Fonstad, that is considered to be the most accurate work on land and city maps for Tolkien's universe (though I know that there are some mistakes).

anyway, if you want to have a quick glance, just see below (I apologyze for the big image, but I can't download it, reduce and upload again at the moment )

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

this is not official AFAIK, so take it with the benefit of doubt

[Macilrille]

The MERP map is very unofficial- I never liked it much anyay. If Tolkien based his Arda on our world, the "Euroasian" continent is much bigger.

[Thangaror]

One of my gripes with Tolkien's work is this weird choice to separate groups and tribes by colour of hair and eyes. It's pretty odd I think.

[Macilrille]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXAvF9p8nmM

The gist of it is, read Tolkien like history, cause that is how it is written. And historically people were disinguished by colouration, height, etc. Celts, Germans, Nubians, etc.

We still do; if I say "Scandinavian woman", what picture forms in your head?

I bet something like this;

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

What characteristics do you link with Scandinavians like Ngugi and I, Dutch? Germans? Russians? Italians? Argentinians?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBVTDLtTLtE

[Flinn]

I bet something like this;

exactly what I had in mind

What characteristics do you link with Scandinavians like Ngugi and I, Dutch? Germans? Russians? Italians? Argentinians?

you two don't count, you are ferrits

any better map around?

[Macilrille]

I saw one somewhere. I will try and look for it.

[Thangaror]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXAvF9p8nmM

The gist of it is, read Tolkien like history, cause that is how it is written. And historically people were disinguished by colouration, height, etc. Celts, Germans, Nubians, etc.

We still do; if I say "Scandinavian woman", what picture forms in your head?

I bet something like this;

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

What characteristics do you link with Scandinavians like Ngugi and I, Dutch? Germans? Russians? Italians? Argentinians?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBVTDLtTLtE

Hehe, alright.
I know that in general Italians have darker hair and skin than Swedes.
On the other hand regarding hair colour there's much diversity among Germans, Dutch, Polish, English, ranging from black to blond.
It's easy to distinguish an Italian from a German, but is it possible to distinguish a German from a Polish, a Dutch or an English (alright, the English bad teeth will give him away)? The way Tolkien describes the Houses, it really sounds like "All Hadorians are blonde".

[Veteraan]

(..)
It's easy to distinguish an Italian from a German, but is it possible to distinguish a German from a Polish, a Dutch or an English (alright, the English bad teeth will give him away)? The way Tolkien describes the Houses, it really sounds like "All Hadorians are blonde".

When they try to speak English, it's usually quite easy to distinguish them.

[Macilrille]

Hehe, alright.
I know that in general Italians have darker hair and skin than Swedes.
On the other hand regarding hair colour there's much diversity among Germans, Dutch, Polish, English, ranging from black to blond.
It's easy to distinguish an Italian from a German, but is it possible to distinguish a German from a Polish, a Dutch or an English (alright, the English bad teeth will give him away)? The way Tolkien describes the Houses, it really sounds like "All Hadorians are blonde".

I guess I need to be more explicit...
What that fellow says is that you should read Tolkien like history, a historical document- or several. And what I then say is that historically ethnic groups, peoples, tribes have been characterised by certain distinguishing traits, for example Tacitus says outright that all Germans are blondes in some variation, they are tall, athletic, strong, warriors. He also describes them as "noble savages", if very warlike. They have certain racial characteristics as well. this description of them permeates all Roman sources on them.

That was so in ancient times, but in a way we still do it- hence the picture of the Scandinavian girls, but also the Al Murray video where he explicits national stereotypes. Stereotypes that we all hold and stereotypes that are to a large extent based on reality. Germans are organised and effective, Italians are lazy, corrupt womanizers who lives with mama till they are 40, Brits are lazy, boisterous, unenlightened; Swedes are nice and polite, Argentinians fiery race-car drivers and fighter pilots, but lousy infantrymen in contrats to the stubborn Brits (IE Falklands War), etc. etc.

[Jagmodo]

Ah, I finally have a week-long break between exams...

First of all, thank you all on your answers on people of Númenor. It's all clear to me now. So, it seems that Bëorians managed to keep their identity and largely settled in Andúnië. Because of their more frequent contact with the Elves they were less prone to distrust towards them. Therefore Elendili emerged; and because of their repression they ended in northern part of Middle-earth. Hence the looks...

One of my gripes with Tolkien's work is this weird choice to separate groups and tribes by colour of hair and eyes. It's pretty odd I think.

Well, Thangaror, I don’t find it that unusual. In real history humans, as they migrated from Africa, adapted to all the different environments they encountered. Hence distinct traits they acquired thru generations. The world wasn’t a “global village” as it is now; there were far less contact between far away people and early political unions/alliances were based on blood ties. Therefore early unions were mostly comprised of individuals very alike in appearances. Remember that in Silmarillion humans are a very “young race”. A bit strange if we took it literally; there was no time for such adaption. Let’s say it was magic/Melkor/something...

No, seriously, I’m struggling for years how to fit Tolkien’s world into our own. To take it literary or interpret it as myths, distorted accounts of faraway people and places by passing of time... Tolkien envisioned his myths as mythological past of our world. We have for example Sun as the last Fruit of Laurelin on a flying boat steered by Arien. I’m not sure to take it literary when we actually know what Sun is. And Elves (OK, Noldor) are not helping at all as they were there and saw everything with their own eyes. OK, if I dismiss Silmarillion as unreliable account what about LOTR? Same things are referenced there, and it could be all dismissed as myth inside of a myth if not of the still living Elves that saw things... It’s all confusing to me.

I don’t know if any of this blabbering has any sense...

On the” beyond Middle-earth” thing I agree with Macilrille. South is on that map is also messed up. The most accurate thing we have is an early draft from Tolkien himself:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

It’s a bit dated but clearly shows what he had in mind.

Excellent recommendation on Atlas of Middle Earth, Flinn. I'll add that The Encyclopedia of Arda has excellent maps. Here they are by Ages:
(WARNING: Huge images ahead!)

First Age:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Second Age:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Third Age:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

By the way Valinor is nearest to reference Avalon, Tír na nÓg and similar Otherworlds of Celtic mythology.

To go back to the FA, I’m wondering why people of Bór were not counted among Edain? It looks to me like quite big injustice since they remained loyal to the bitter end. Is there any chance some of them survived Nirnaeth Arnoediad after all and ended on Númenor?

[Macilrille]

Thank you, the Tolkien sketch one and these were what I was thinking off, but too laz... busy to track down.

As for the people of Bor;
They arrived late, and cannot thus be counted amongst the fathers of men, and they only held fast for a generation or so (I am too lazy to look that up exactly as well, it being past midnight here). They did not fight the long loosing (and doomed) struggle that the Edain did. I always assumed they were basically wiped out by the other victorious Easterlings in and after the Nirnaeth.

[athanaric]

On the other hand regarding hair colour there's much diversity among Germans, Dutch, Polish, English, ranging from black to blond.

This actually holds true for all Europeans. It's just that the percentage of light hair, eyes, and skin tone is higher in Northern Europe than in Southern Europe.

It's easy to distinguish an Italian from a German, but is it possible to distinguish a German from a Polish, a Dutch or an English (alright, the English bad teeth will give him away)?

It's not always easy to distinguish a German from an Italian, although perpaps the behaviour might be a helpful indicator. The individual variation among Europeans means that while there are very characteristic phenotypes for each region, there's always some people who can pass for some other nationality, even if it's from the other end of the continent.

[Ngugi]

Concerning people's physichal traits the Edain were described with general but not hard cut terms;

Yellow-haired [Hador's Huse] were for the most part, and blue-eyed; ... The Men [Bëor's] house were dark or brown of hair, with grey eyes; ... Like to them were the woodland folk of Haleth, but they were of lesser stature, and less eager for lore
- Silm.; Of the Coming of Men into the West

or

The Folk of Hador were ever the greatest in numbers of the Atani, and in renown (save only Beren son of Barahir descendant of Beor). For the most part they were tall people, with flaxen or golden hair and blue-grey eyes, but there were not a few among them that had dark hair, though all were fair-skinned.
(...)
Though the time might well have been less, and change quickened by a mingling of peoples; for the language of Hador was apparently less changed and more uniform in style, whereas the language of Beor contained many elements that were alien in character. This contrast in speech was probably connected with the observable physical differences between the two peoples. There were fair-haired men and women among the Folk of Beor, but most of them had brown hair (going usually with brown eyes), and many were less fair in skin, some indeed being swarthy.

- HoME 12; ... ; The Atani and their Languages

and there's more, but now's not my hour to dig trough it ^^

[Peredhel]

No, seriously, I’m struggling for years how to fit Tolkien’s world into our own. To take it literary or interpret it as myths, distorted accounts of faraway people and places by passing of time... Tolkien envisioned his myths as mythological past of our world. We have for example Sun as the last Fruit of Laurelin on a flying boat steered by Arien. I’m not sure to take it literary when we actually know what Sun is. And Elves (Ok Noldor) are not helping at all as they were there and saw everything with their own eyes. Ok, if I dismiss Silmarillion as unreliable account what about LOTR ? Same things are referenced there, and it could be all dismissed as myth inside of a myth if not of the still living Elves that saw things... It’s all confusing to me.

Your "struggle" is gathering many questions it's difficult to adress of all them in once but I'm trying to make it short.

Firstable the Silmarillion is, indeed, a myth inside a myth. Tolkien's writings are conceived as tranlations of books written a long time ago. The Lord of the Ring is supposed to be Tolkien's translation of Bilbo, Frodo and Sam's book written with the help of their friends of the Fellowship. It's much more complicated for the Silmarillion. It is supposed to be Tolkien's tranlation (Westron -> English) of Bilbo's translation (Sindarin -> Westron) of a book from Imladris' library written (for the Fall of Numenor) or rewritten (for the Quenta) by Elendil, who himself gathered texts written by the Edain and the Sindar of the Haven of the Sirion and/or (I'm not sure) Elves of Tol Eressëa and rewritten by the Numenoreans. Pfouh !

So everything is not supposed to be the truth, even in the "timeline" of the Lord of the Ring, but considering that some people (Elrond and Galadriel for example) actually lived those events this account is way more trustable than our own myths. Cirdan is even born in Cuivienen so he surely spoke with some Eldar who awoke there and he may have seen with his own eyes the great war of Melkor and the Valar in the North.

Also some texts aren't supposed to be the truth itself but tales and allegories. Like the tale of the Quendi when they awoke at Cuivienen wich was conceived by Elves to teach numbers to their children : it's not a lie, it's not either necessarily how it really happened, it's a tale about something that happen a long time ago.

But even with this precautions Tolkien took he wasn't entirely happy with that and he was struggling with those questions as well.

At the end of his life he began to write again (like he did all this life long after all) some of his early works (what's called "myth revisted").
What disturbed him with the birth of sun and stars is that the Silmarillion is mainly written by Elves who were teached by the Valar, beings who lived the creation of Arda, so it wasn't possible for them to ignore the realities of Astronomy. So he imagined a new story, or at least planned to, that he never finished : How Arien was the Maia of the Sun and how Melkor raped her and put a veil on the Earth to hide its light, etc. But he never finished it.

Excellent recommendation on Atlas of Middle Earth, Flinn. I'll add that The Encyclopedia of Arda has excellent maps.

Even though most of them are accurate I heard that sometime they don't follow exactly the text so it's always better to check when you want something exact.

To go back to the FA, I’m wondering why people of Bór were not counted among Edain ? It looks to me like quite big injustice since they remained loyal to the bitter end. Is there any chance some of them survived Nirnaeth Arnoediad after all and ended on Númenor?

Some of his folk survived indeed (but no one from his line I believe), Tolkien stated in the late Quenta that some went to the north of Eriador, may be they are related to the Lossoth and/or to the folk who fought for the Witch King of Angmar.
I'm not sure why they weren't considered Edain (especially cause the Drûgh were considered someway as Edain), may be cause neither of them went to Numenor (some Druedain did), may be cause they never lived with the Elves and so weren't considered "friend of the Elves", honestly I don't know.

[Ngugi]

To go back to the FA, I’m wondering why people of Bór were not counted among Edain? It looks to me like quite big injustice since they remained loyal to the bitter end. Is there any chance some of them survived Nirnaeth Arnoediad after all and ended on Númenor?

What happened to Bor's people after the battle of unnumbered tears? Did they flee back east or were they wiped out completely?

I always thought it was a bit harsh they weren't rewarded by eru for staying loyal to the Noldor when the edain did.

(* It was after thought that the people of Ulfang were already secretly in the service of Morgoth ere they came to Beleriand. Not so the people of Bor, who were worthy folk and tillers of the earth. Of them, it is said, came the most ancient of the Men that dwelt in the north of Eriador in the Second Age and [? read in] after-days.)

(...)

With the following remarks in the footnote concerning the descendants of the people of Bor in Eriador in the Second Age cf. QS chapter 16, $15 (V.310-11): 'From that day [Nirnaith Arnediad] the hearts of the Elves were estranged from Men, save only from those of the Three Houses, the peoples of Hador, and Beor, and Haleth; for the sons of Bor, Boromir, Borlas, and Borthandos, who alone among the Easterlings proved true at need, all perished in that battle, and they left no heirs.'
This suggests that the people of Bor ceased to be of any account after 472; but it is perhaps to be presumed in any case that these Men of Eriador were a branch of that people who never entered Beleriand.

- HoME 11

Personally I think descendants to Bórs kindred folks made up on one hand the Hillmen, who may also decend from other easterling groups, who came to be in Angmars service, and on the other hand the Forodwaith; while all of Bórs folk was lost (sadly).

[Bladvak]

I saw in another thread a discussion about Tom Bombadil, but didn't get the chance to post there before the convo initiator closed it. So I'm bringing this here:

Expand, explain, prove the true nature of Tom Bombadil: Eru, a Vala, a Maia, an Elf, a Human.

Long story short, I myself like to think that Tom is Eru and Goldilocks is his wife. You're gonna say: hey, but Eru doesn't have a wife. Sure, but Silmarillion is a fourth(?)-hand book, the information there was passed from Vala and Maia to Elves who passed it on to Men who passed it on to Hobbits who then passed it on to the current form. A wife could have been very well removed from those transcriptions, due to various reasons.

There's one quote about him from Gandalf: "and he will fall the last, just as he was the first". And if he was the first, what was he first of - first of the Elves? first of the Men? definitely not first of the Ents, not the least because of his stature and also because we know Treebeard to hold that position.

And if he was a new, special species, who created him? Afaik, only Eru could create new beings - but with what purpose to place Tom in a virtually peaceful place such as his? My guess is that Eru created the world and wanted a taste of it, from a lesser point of view. And the power that Tom commands over the elements and other lifeforms is just as much as he needs to make sure that he does experience life in ME.

There is also a theory that he is Tolkien. If so, why would Tolkien need another character in the universe, when he's got Beren already? Also, giving "himself" powers in the universe is quite childish and unworthy of an established writer. When you're the author, you detach yourself from anything that could link you up to a character. You could say that if Tolkien indeed envisioned himself as Tom, from a professional point of view that would be a blasphemy and frowned upon.

In any event, I think him being a Maia is the most plausible of theories as him being the first Maia in ME, although I stand by my favourite choice, him being Eru.

[Macilrille]

I have shamelessly copied this from Wiki as it is the best summary of it I have come across in my 18 years of debating Tolkien online.

As with Roverandom, Tolkien's initial inspiration came from an incident with his children playing with toys. Tolkien invented Tom Bombadil in memory of a Dutch doll which had been flushed down a lavatory.^[6] These original poems far pre-date the writing of The Lord of the Rings, into which Tolkien introduced Tom Bombadil from the earliest drafts.
In response to a letter from one of his readers, Tolkien described Tom's role in The Lord of the Rings:

Tom Bombadil is not an important person — to the narrative. I suppose he has some importance as a 'comment.' I mean, I do not really write like that: he is just an invention (who first appeared in The Oxford Magazine about 1933), and he represents something that I feel important, though I would not be prepared to analyse the feeling precisely. I would not, however, have left him in, if he did not have some kind of function.

Tolkien did go on to analyse the character's role further:

I might put it this way. The story is cast in terms of a good side, and a bad side, beauty against ruthless ugliness, tyranny against kingship, moderated freedom with consent against compulsion that has long lost any object save mere power, and so on; but both sides in some degree, conservative or destructive, want a measure of control. But if you have, as it were, taken 'a vow of poverty', renounced control, and take your delight in things for themselves without reference to yourself, watching, observing, and to some extent knowing, then the questions of the rights and wrongs of power and control might become utterly meaningless to you, and the means of power quite valueless...

It is a natural pacifist view, which always arises in the mind when there is a war ... the view of Rivendell seems to be that it is an excellent thing to have represented, but that there are in fact things with which it cannot cope; and upon which its existence nonetheless depends. Ultimately only the victory of the West will allow Bombadil to continue, or even to survive. Nothing would be left for him in the world of Sauron.^[7]

Tolkien even seems to justify Tom Bombadil's presence:

And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally).^[4]

In a letter to Stanley Unwin, Tolkien called Tom Bombadil the spirit of the vanishing landscapes of Oxfordshire and Berkshire.^[8]

Now as I see it you both forget that Tolkien was a catholic Victorian and assume that everything he did was conscious.

Eru is a version of or parallel to the catholic God, no doubt about that. God is not married, he is above the pleasures of the flesh- especially as he is not flesh (except in the form of his son- the incarnate), and Victorians were quite prudish. Hence Eru cannot want to try a taste of that particular pleasure. So he cannot be Tom.

The suggestion that Tom is an unconscious expression of Tolkien himself; a dream of what could be a Utopia for John and Edith is mine, and not- to my knowledge proposed or accepted elsewhere. I first brought it forth on The White Council back in 1997 or 1998. What I mean is that while Tolkien saw himself asBeren and Edith as Luthien and stated as much even on their tombstone. TB is on a much more subconscious level, seeping through from another tale and in a utopian and idyllic other reality of how Tolkien could wish to live in harmony with nature. But without even his subtle mind noticing or admitting even to himself. I orgininally had the thought because TB is an observer, something outside the story watching it all unfold.

In any case, JRRT states himself as quoted above that TB is left an enigma on purpose. So discussion of what he really is, is moot, for Word of God says there is no answer.

I hope that suffices, it will have to as it is currently 02:30 here and I am exhausted.

[Bladvak]

In any case, JRRT states himself as quoted above that TB is left an enigma on purpose. So discussion of what he really is, is moot, for Word of God says there is no answer.

I hope that suffices, it will have to as it is currently 02:30 here and I am exhausted.

Enigmas are meant to be deciphered, saying from the start that it is moot to raise a problem is actually unfreedomlike. Other people might bring arguments into the fray, observing or not observing the arguments already brought. It's a free conversation to which all the forum members are welcomed .

As for being exhausted, there are other days you can continue with it, nobody is forcing you to anything .

You are right, the thing about Tolkien being a Victorian prude did slip my mind. But considering your quote, I do believe he did place TB with full knowledge and consciousness about it.

This is a discussion about the nature of Tom Bombadil and how we can classify him : I stand by my first post on it and that I liken him to be A form of Eru (avatar if you like), but most likely he can be a disguised Maia. Any other thoughts?

[Macilrille]

Yes, Word of God. You cannot argue with that. Ergo we cannot arrive at a conclusion and hence I am not that interested in debating TB, sorry.

[Bladvak]

Glad to hear your position. I am however, interested in debating this issue, with whoever is interested.