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Thread: Tolkien General Discussion II

  1. #3581

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I watched the films first, was still too young to read the books though I did try. The films made me fall in love with Lord of the rings, I honestly have no idea how many times I watched them. As I grew older and read the books it was even better, there were so many new things I learnt from them and it just sends your imagination racing even though I had pre-formed images in my head. Now I have moved onto the audiobooks by Phil Dragash and in my opinion he has done a fantastic job, even though it is inspired by the films.

  2. #3582
    Gallus's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Hobbit book -> LotR movies -> LotR books -> The Sil would be my recommendation. Hobbit movies are poor and should be viewed last.

  3. #3583
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Those films should be burned with their creator.

    Nuff said.

  4. #3584
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Some information on the Tolkien biopic: https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/commen..._tolkien_film/

  5. #3585

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    I recently picked up The Fall of Gondolin which contains some beautiful illustrations and I think most notably the original version of the tale along with some commentary by Christopher Tolkien about when the tales were conceived, why they were abandoned and some discussion about changes throughout the various versions.

    What surprised me most about the original tale that featured in the book is that I feel it gave some level of insight into the thoughts of Tolkien himself based on the time it was written. Now I fully admit this is entirely conjecture on my part but hear me out:

    In prologue to the book Christopher references a letter that states that

    The Fall of Gondolin(And the birth of Earendil) was written in hospital and on leave after surviving the battle of Somme in 1916
    Christopher's commentary goes on to comment that there are some minor inconsistencies with this specific timing but agrees that it would be around 1916-1917. Why I think this is important is because it struck me that the battles in the original tale are exceptionally detailed, every page once the siege begins is filled with tales of heroic sacrifices, characters fighting valiantly against evil monstrosities and impossible odds. Now as we all well know the fight scenes in both The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings are vary sparse in details and this is accredited to Tolkien's distaste for war and conflict from his own personal experience many years earlier. But then we get this tale written in the midst of that conflict he experienced and he writes incredible detail of our heroes valiantly fighting the forces of evil. I think this shows that the younger Tolkien had a slightly different view of war and conflict than what appeared 20 years later in The Hobbit, this story to me I think shows a man who doesn't entirely detest conflict, but yearns for something closer to that of classical tales with heroes fighting to their last for a great cause. In any case there's certainly a stark contrast between the publication of this original tale and the rest of his works where battles are simply summarised in a single paragraph and I personally think that has to do with a change in his perspective on the whole thing.

    What do you all think?

  6. #3586
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    A recent Rotten tomatoes editorial about the upcoming Amazon series. Interesting, I think, although it's a mix of new info and stuff that we already have seen (here).

    https://editorial.rottentomatoes.com...amazon-series/

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  7. #3587
    Araval's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Some information about the show from Tom Shippey: https://www.tolkiengesellschaft.de/3...g-lotronprime/

  8. #3588
    Araval's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by John Howe
    The show runners are determined to remain faithful to the existing trilogies and the spirit of the books.
    https://narniafans.com/2019/08/inter...ner-john-howe/

  9. #3589
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Interesting news!!

    I was redescovering some lore of the silmarillion:

    Now Melkor began the delving and building of a vast fortress, deep under Earth, beneath dark mountains where the beams of Illuin were cold and dim. That stronghold was named Utumno. And though the Valar knew naught of it as yet, nonetheless the evil of Melkor and the blight of his hatred flowed out thence, and the Spring of Arda was marred. Green things fell sick and rotted, and rivers were choked with weeds and slime, and fens were made, rank and poisonous, the breeding place of flies; and forests grew dark and perilous, the haunts of fear; and beasts became monsters of horn and ivory and dyed the earth with blood. Then the Valar knew indeed that Melkor was at work again, and they sought for his hiding place.

    The Valaquenta, The Silmarillion
    What do you think about that beasts that became monster of horn and ivory?
    Could they be the ancestors of mumakils, great beats and also the ancient nameless things?
    Do you have informations or images about this phase of the first age?
    What about the creatures which valar made?

    It's similar to a prestoric age of Arda...


    Hope there are some notes left by Tolkien or his son explained this things..

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  11. #3591
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Araval View Post
    Some information on the Tolkien biopic: https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/commen..._tolkien_film/
    I visited John Howe's Exhibition in Shanghai. I had a great pleasure to see the artwork displayed there, but it would have been ever a greater joy to meet Howe there too. I think I arrived too late.


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  12. #3592
    Araval's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Lucky you! Can you name anything you especially liked?

    He's made my favourite interpretation of Thorin:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    He even looks similar to Richard Armitage in my opinion!
    Last edited by Araval; November 18, 2019 at 02:02 PM.

  13. #3593
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II


  14. #3594

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Araval View Post
    I just heard about the news right now, my condolences for his family or maybe i should say: Namárië, mellon nîn.

  15. #3595
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Araval View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Garnash View Post
    I just heard about the news right now, my condolences for his family or maybe i should say: Namárië, mellon nîn.
    Aye, sad, we stand in great gratitude to his contribution to fantastic literature.
    Christopher and his siblings inspired the creation of many tales, that at end led to The Hobbit. He was his father's sounding board, including for The Lord of the Rings (in part while serving as RAF pilot during WW2), drew maps and was a member of the Inklings.
    After JRR's death Christopher compiled, edited and published his father's unreleased work. Thus we have the Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, the 12 volumes of The History of Middle-earth, The Children of Húrin, Beren and Lúthien and The Fall of Gondolin.
    Without these, and many other essays, concerning the legendarium as well real mythology and sagas, we would known little about the creative and literary labours of his father.

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  16. #3596
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Christopher was as important as his father, that's granted.

    May he rest in peace
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  17. #3597

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Hello,

    A question for the loremasters. Does Tolkien ever state what Sauron wanted to do with Middle-Earth after he had won? Did he want to make all of Middle-Earth like Mordor, or was he just content to be master of all?

  18. #3598

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    "Sauron, however, inherited the 'corruption' of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate. In this way Sauron was also wiser than Melkor-Morgoth. Sauron was not a beginner of discord; and he probably knew more of the 'Music' than did Melkor, whose mind had always been filled with his own plans and devices, and gave little attention to other things."
    and:
    "Sauron had never reached this stage of nihilistic madness [the stage that Morgoth had]. He did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it. He still had the relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and co-ordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction.(It was the apparent will and power of Melkor to effect his designs quickly and masterfully that had first attracted Sauron to him.) Sauron had, in fact, been very like Saruman, and so still understood him quickly and could guess what he would be likely to think and do, even without the aid of palantiri or of spies; whereas Gandalf eluded and puzzled him. But like all minds of this cast, Sauron's love (originally) or (later) mere understanding of other individual intelligences was correspondingly weaker; and though the only real good in, or rational motive for, all this ordering and planning and organization was the good of all inhabitants of Arda (even admitting Sauron's right to be their supreme lord), his 'plans', the idea coming from his own isolated mind, became the sole object of his will, and an end, the End, in itself."

    From Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed, HoME 10.

  19. #3599
    Flinn's Avatar His Dudeness of TWC
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    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Lol, despite having heard it for ages, I realized only today that Led Zeppelin had a mention to Mordor and Gollum on "Ramble on"

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Ramble on

    Leaves are falling all around
    It’s time I was on my way
    Thanks to you I’m much obliged
    For such a pleasant stay
    But now it’s time for me to go
    The autumn moon lights my way
    For now I smell the rain
    And with it pain
    And it’s headed my way

    Ah, sometimes I grow so tired
    But I know I’ve got one thing I got to do

    Ramble on
    And now’s the time, the time is now
    To sing my song
    I’m goin’ ‘round the world, I got to find my girl
    On my way
    I’ve been this way ten years to the day
    Ramble on
    Gotta find the queen of all my dreams

    Got no time for spreadin’ roots
    The time has come to be gone
    And thoough our health we drank a thousand times
    It’s time to ramble on

    Ramble on
    And now’s the time, the time is now
    To sing my song
    I’m going ‘round the world, I got to find my girl
    On my way
    I’ve been this way ten years to the day
    I gotta ramble on
    I gotta find the queen of all my dreams

    I ain’t tellin’ no lie
    Mine’s a tale that can’t be told
    My freedom I hold dear
    How years ago in days of old
    When magic filled the air
    ‘T was in the darkest depths of Mordor
    I met a girl so fair
    But Gollum, and the evil one
    Crept up and slipped away with her
    Her, her, yeah
    Ain’t nothing I can do, no

    I guess I keep on rambling
    I’m gonna, yeah, yeah, yeah
    Sing my song (I gotta find my baby)
    I gotta ramble on, sing my song
    Gotta work my way around the world baby, baby
    Ramble on, yeah
    Doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, my baby
    Doo, doo, doo, doo
    Doodoo doodoo doodoo doodoo doodoo

    I gotta keep searching for my baby
    (Baby, baby, baby, baby, baby, baby)
    I gotta keep-a-searchin’ for my baby
    (My, my, my, my, my, my, my baby)
    Yeah yeah, yeah yeah, yeah yeah yeah
    Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah
    I can’t find my bluebird
    I listen to my bluebird sing
    I can’t find my bluebird
    I keep rambling, baby
    I keep rambling, baby


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  20. #3600

    Default Re: Tolkien General Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    "Sauron, however, inherited the 'corruption' of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate. In this way Sauron was also wiser than Melkor-Morgoth. Sauron was not a beginner of discord; and he probably knew more of the 'Music' than did Melkor, whose mind had always been filled with his own plans and devices, and gave little attention to other things."
    and:
    "Sauron had never reached this stage of nihilistic madness [the stage that Morgoth had]. He did not object to the existence of the world, so long as he could do what he liked with it. He still had the relics of positive purposes, that descended from the good of the nature in which he began: it had been his virtue (and therefore also the cause of his fall, and of his relapse) that he loved order and co-ordination, and disliked all confusion and wasteful friction.(It was the apparent will and power of Melkor to effect his designs quickly and masterfully that had first attracted Sauron to him.) Sauron had, in fact, been very like Saruman, and so still understood him quickly and could guess what he would be likely to think and do, even without the aid of palantiri or of spies; whereas Gandalf eluded and puzzled him. But like all minds of this cast, Sauron's love (originally) or (later) mere understanding of other individual intelligences was correspondingly weaker; and though the only real good in, or rational motive for, all this ordering and planning and organization was the good of all inhabitants of Arda (even admitting Sauron's right to be their supreme lord), his 'plans', the idea coming from his own isolated mind, became the sole object of his will, and an end, the End, in itself."

    From Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed, HoME 10.
    Thank you for such an in-depth response. I find it fascinating that Sauron's end goal is actually to benefit other people in the best way he knows how to, albeit causing a lot of suffering along the way to do so.

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