[Research] Relative Power Rankings and Number of Troops for Each House

[Badger-dude]

Hello all,

I have recently been trying to balance the latest version of my Fire and Blood submod.

The problem is that with the addition of new Houses, it is difficult to make both the new and original houses start out in a realistic position.

For example, AFAIK the Reach should be more populous than the Westerlands, but weaker economically.

At present:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Lannister can field 4 stacks without loosing any money (Starting troops from all settlements ungarrisonned, essentially)

Tyrell 2.5

Hightower - 2 stacks (and still gaining money)

Redwyne - 1 stack

This would be absolutely fine, but Tyrell should be greater than Hightower and Redwyne combined

With new Tyrell settlements this is likely to even itself out.

However, I am looking to compile a list of what information we have from the books on how many troops each house can comfortably field. Comfortably meaning field without calling up reserves.

[The Forgotten]

The very best the north can do is 30 - 40,000 I think as Robb hastily assembled 18-20,000 men in short enough time when he marched south. If the Lannisters can field 4 stacks then the Starks should field 3 but with very slow regeneration time with units to show the time it would take to find men from all the very spread out farms and such.

Martells have the fewest men out of the 7 kingdoms (Iron Isles technically aren't a kingdom in themselves). But for balance sake I would say they could field 2 stacks.

Yronwood and Frey 1/2.

I would say more but I am not an expert at this so smeone else can give their opinion.

[Louis XVI]

GRRM once put Dorne, the North and the Vale at the same level of manpower. That was during the time that Dorne was still 50k spears, later GRRM revised that Dorne was actually 30k and Doran emphasized that Dorne was the least populated territory. The Vale and the North however were not revised down, some pretty Lore wise people have therefore actually estimated the full Northern strength at about 50k, with the important side note that the North needs a lot more time to gather all its forces.

I think the North is quite underpowered in the mods, in the Lore the North has a lot more troops left behind:
''Robb took 20k men south. Since then we have seen another 3k men raised virtually overnight by the Mountain clans, another 3k raised by Ser Rodrik to fight the Ironborn, another 1k raised by Stannis in the Glover lands, another 1k raised by the Karstarks and Umbers, and another 3k or so by the token forces the lords have provided to Ramsay at Winterfell.

This already adds up to around 30k men in total. But it excludes major forces that various lords have kept back until a Stark rises again in Winterfell. Lord Manderly alone has a fleet of 50 ships (with 100 men minimum per ship that equates to around 5k men). He further says he still has more heavy horse than any other northern lord - including the Boltons who returned North with around 3000 men and had Ramsay add another 1000 from the Dreadfort's reserve forces.


It excludes Skagos, who in all likelihood can raise in the region of 3k men, given that this is what the Karstarks and the Umbers can raise. The list goes on.''

Important thread on this subject: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php...se-of-the-war/

And how can the Reach be weaker economically if the Hightowers are said to be as rich as the Lannisters, never got that fact, I mean how can a Tyrell bannerman be so rich while everyone says the Westerlands are richer then the entire reach?

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

GRRM once put Dorne, the North and the Vale at the same level of manpower. That was during the time that Dorne was still 50k spears, later GRRM revised that Dorne was actually 30k and Doran emphasized that Dorne was the least populated territory. The Vale and the North however were not revised down, some pretty Lore wise people have therefore actually estimated the full Northern strength at about 50k, with the important side note that the North needs a lot more time to gather all its forces.

I think the North is quite underpowered in the mods, in the Lore the North has a lot more troops left behind:
''Robb took 20k men south. Since then we have seen another 3k men raised virtually overnight by the Mountain clans, another 3k raised by Ser Rodrik to fight the Ironborn, another 1k raised by Stannis in the Glover lands, another 1k raised by the Karstarks and Umbers, and another 3k or so by the token forces the lords have provided to Ramsay at Winterfell.

This already adds up to around 30k men in total. But it excludes major forces that various lords have kept back until a Stark rises again in Winterfell. Lord Manderly alone has a fleet of 50 ships (with 100 men minimum per ship that equates to around 5k men). He further says he still has more heavy horse than any other northern lord - including the Boltons who returned North with around 3000 men and had Ramsay add another 1000 from the Dreadfort's reserve forces.


It excludes Skagos, who in all likelihood can raise in the region of 3k men, given that this is what the Karstarks and the Umbers can raise. The list goes on.''

Important thread on this subject: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php...se-of-the-war/

And how can the Reach be weaker economically if the Hightowers are said to be as rich as the Lannisters, never got that fact, I mean how can a Tyrell bannerman be so rich while everyone says the Westerlands are richer then the entire reach?

When were they said to be richer than the Lannisters? The Lannisters are the prime economical force behind the Kingdom, have the most Mines and other sources of income, and they are able to comfortably wage a war with the Crown owing them 3 million golden coins.

[mortem et gloria]

best way of coming around this is by just changing the kings purse as it will allow you to have the extra units, without screwing up core basis.

on my personal mod i start with lore numbers high starting money and kings purse edited to each faction so they can maintain it for longer without going into debt to quickly ( debt is a very real attribute of war and it stops a large army gaining quick reinforcements


it still cost the same for food spears and clothes no matter where you were.... ironically when in an emeny zone they would take costs and allow the troops to loot ( the wages where very low.)

[Bacara]

The Reach has the 2nd most powerful economy.. Who doesn't like Arbor gold for example? And they can muster the biggest army.. Bigger than than the Lannisters

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

The Reach has the 2nd most powerful economy.. Who doesn't like Arbor gold for example? And they can muster the biggest army.. Bigger than than the Lannisters

Not richer though.

[Werthead]

According to the as-yet unpublished World of Ice and Fire, King Torrhen Stark was able to raise 30,000 men when he marched south against Aegon the Conqueror. This would confirm that with considerably longer to prepare and mobilise, the North can muster a much larger army than what Robb took south. The question remains if Torrhen also left a strong garrison in the North to keep an eye on things (and given that Harren the Black's brother commanded 10,000 troops on the Wall as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, this might have been a sensible precaution). If so, then a figure of 40,000 as the North's maximum strength is entirely plausible.

And how can the Reach be weaker economically if the Hightowers are said to be as rich as the Lannisters, never got that fact, I mean how can a Tyrell bannerman be so rich while everyone says the Westerlands are richer then the entire reach?

Whoever said that about the Hightowers was probably exaggerating for effect The Hightowers may also have as much personal income or ready cash as the Lannisters, but nowhere near as large resources to call upon: the Lannisters have to rule an entire region of the continent extending across hundreds of miles, whilst the Hightowers only have to worry about one city.

As for the situation with the Tyrells, they are, by themselves, not as wealthy as the Lannisters. The Reach as a whole, with tax incomes from a vast population (the Reach's population must be at least twice that of the Westerlands, probably more), could probably put more money in one place than the Lannisters if really necessary. However, the Lannister's income is more tangible (coming from gold and silver mines). They also have the benefit that they can outfit a smaller army to a higher standard than the Tyrells, who must spend their money on equipping a much vaster force. It's already noted in the books, I believe, that the Lannisters can field heavy cavalry to a high standard, whilst the Tyrells have to rely a bit more on raw numbers (and the leadership of the best battlefield commander in the Seven Kingdoms, Randyll Tarly, of course).

[Karazor]

Whoever said that about the Hightowers was probably exaggerating for effect The Hightowers may also have as much personal income or ready cash as the Lannisters, but nowhere near as large resources to call upon: the Lannisters have to rule an entire region of the continent extending across hundreds of miles, whilst the Hightowers only have to worry about one city.

.

but the hightowers actualy don't manage just the city they have personal land of their own since they actually are lords and the lands around the city and maybe some more belong to them , and another thing is that they actually have other houses sworn to them like:
house Beesbury of Honeyholt
house Bulwer of Blackcrown.
house Costayne of the Three Towers
house Cuy of Sunflower Hall
house Mullendore of Uplands

[Karazor]

the point is the Tyrells of the reach can muster the biggest army , The Lannister have a smaller army but a better equiped one , better weapons , better armor , shields , bows and cosbows,

and the thiong with dorne where does it say they can muster an army of 50k soldiers , i remeber prince frog saying it's 15k strong , and even if i am wrong and it's 50k , i don't think so a wager their max is between 15k and 25k , since come on they live in a desert land , and also the number of lordly houses is such small in comparison to the valer or stormlands , and to bee clear i mean lordly houses with castles not knightly or some petty lords with towerhouses

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

the point is the Tyrells of the reach can muster the biggest army , The Lannister have a smaller army but a better equiped one , better weapons , better armor , shields , bows and cosbows,

and the thiong with dorne where does it say they can muster an army of 50k soldiers , i remeber prince frog saying it's 15k strong , and even if i am wrong and it's 50k , i don't think so a wager their max is between 15k and 25k , since come on they live in a desert land , and also the number of lordly houses is such small in comparison to the valer or stormlands , and to bee clear i mean lordly houses with castles not knightly or some petty lords with towerhouses

Prince frog? And Dorne should be about 20 or 30 thousand troops.

[Werthead]

but the hightowers actualy don't manage just the city they have personal land of their own since they actually are lords and the lands around the city and maybe some more belong to them , and another thing is that they actually have other houses sworn to them like:

Yes, the Hightowers have vassal houses sworn to them. They actually occupy an unusual place in that they are a vassal house, sworn to Tyrell, but are powerful enough to have other vassals sworn to them who are themselves quite powerful. The Freys are comparable in rank, but much less so in income and power.

All of that said, the Lannisters are still the supreme rulers of their territory, whilst the Hightowers are still subservient to the Tyrells. GRRM has never detailed the taxation system, so we don't know how much of Hightower's income goes to the Tyrells, which might be a key difference between them and the Lannisters.

and the thiong with dorne where does it say they can muster an army of 50k soldiers , i remeber prince frog saying it's 15k strong , and even if i am wrong and it's 50k , i don't think so a wager their max is between 15k and 25k , since come on they live in a desert land , and also the number of lordly houses is such small in comparison to the valer or stormlands , and to bee clear i mean lordly houses with castles not knightly or some petty lords with towerhouses

Yes, Quentyn says that Dorne can muster 50,000 troops. I think Tyrion also says something similar in ASoS. The problem is that, as Doran tells Arianne in AFFC, that's all lies, based on Daeron I's military assessment of Dorne which he exaggerated to make himself sound cooler and which Dorne has perpetuated to make it sound more formidable. In reality, Dorne can probably match the Stormlands but certainly can't come anywhere near the numbers of the Lannisters, Tullys or Starks, let alone the Tyrells. 20-35,000 at the absolute maximum is the commonly-accepted figure.

it is still a very feudal army, so equipment standards are up not only to the leading house. each lord brings his own force, and the heavy cavalry is mostly knights and lords. given that the reach is extremly fertile and has vast tracts of arable land, which is likely the primary economic factor in westeros, their lords will be among the richest, only topped ie by those westerland houses who controll precious metals. so, the quality of the reach forces is likey mostly en par with the westerlands, though perhaps more emphasized on the noble cavalry.

I think the Westerlands are extremely rich in gold and silver, to the point where Tywin can probably get unlimited credit from somewhere like the Iron Bank of Braavos if necessary. The Tyrells' potential cashflow is likely equal through taxation over a period of time, but they can't raise as much money as quickly. I also get the impression that Tywin is a lot more frugal than the Tyrells, who under Mace seem to like throwing tourneys and parties at the drop of a hat.


Of course, the situation in the books as of ADWD is very different to that of the start. The Lannisters have been repeatedly mauled in battle with the Starks and lost a lot of troops (losing the battles of the Camps, Whispering Wood, Golden Tooth and the Tumblestone fords, and losing a reasonable number of troops even during victories like the Green Fork). They've also been constantly in the field on a war footing for over two years, which they cannot maintain for much longer. The Tyrells, on the other hand, have not actually seen a proper battle. They turned up right at the end of the Battle of the Blackwater and did not suffer significant losses, whilst Duskendale appears to have been a massacre of the Stark forces without the Tyrells suffering major losses. They also kept a lot of strength at home (though some of them have now been diverted to meet the Greyjoy threat and retake the Shield Islands). If it comes to war between them, the Tyrells should win without a major problem, as opposed to when the Lannisters were at full strength and Tywin was alive, when victory would have been more problematic but still likely.

[Karazor]

neah still think it's 25, i guess we will see in "The winds of winter " after 3 years or if we are lucky 2

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

neah still think it's 25, i guess we will see in "The winds of winter " after 3 years or if we are lucky 2

I think the Great Bearded Glacier said ''Summer 2014" of course, I may be wrong. And what makes you so sure we will see? He will probably pull

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Another cop-out wedding stunt

[HannibalExMachina]

it is still a very feudal army, so equipment standards are up not only to the leading house. each lord brings his own force, and the heavy cavalry is mostly knights and lords. given that the reach is extremly fertile and has vast tracts of arable land, which is likely the primary economic factor in westeros, their lords will be among the richest, only topped ie by those westerland houses who controll precious metals. so, the quality of the reach forces is likey mostly en par with the westerlands, though perhaps more emphasized on the noble cavalry.

[stefan1921]

I always pictured Tywin Lannister keeping a larger standing army than the Tyrells, as not only could he afford it, but he could use it to quickly crush any opposing threat. However, I always pictured the actual income of the entire Reach, opposed to the entire Westerlands, to be greater. In the books, when House Lannister is described as the most wealthy and powerful house, I never thought that it encompassed the entire reigon, and their lords and bannermen's castles and towns, but just that their holdings and hoard of wealth surpassed any other house except house Hightower, where I clearly remember from the book GRRM writing that Hightower was actually as wealthy as the Lannisters. But if you add up all of the Reach, with Oldtown, the Arbor, Highgarden, and all the multiple castles and towns (which far exceed the number of lords in the Westerlands) I think that the Reach is just far more wealthy and powerful. They had massive fertility, and with it a massive population, they had a city that was oon par with King's Landing, and the cities house which had the wealth of the Lannisters alone, not even being the Lord of the Reach or Warden of the South.
At least that's how I always saw it, Lannisters having a larger standing army and alot of gold, but the entire Reach being more powerful, more wealthy, and having the potential to be more militarily powerful than the entire Westerlands.

Also when I read that Dorne had 50,000 men I knew that he was outright lying, trying to convince Dany to come, not actually telling the truth. I believe the Starks and the Arryns could definetely field 50,000, but the Arryns should have an easier time producing soldiers becuase of less spread-out-ness, and the Starks having more money becuase of White Harbor and their multiple largely populated castles like Winterfell, Dreadfort, and Karhold compared to the Eyrie, which really didn't have 50 people in it from what I remember.

[Badger-dude]

The list below is a rough guide to how many soldiers I believe that each house should be able to field. Population is not quite so important to this study - More so I am looking to consider the maximum number of troops that a house should be able to support on a war-time economy (Maxed Taxes) without losing any money or being forced to destroy buildings.

As previously stated, Lannister likely has a 'quality over quantity' approach - However this is more about how many men Tywin could AFFORD to field, assuming population was less of an issue.

100k - The Reach (Hightower, Redwyne, and Tyrell)
80k Lannister
50k - The North (Bolton and Stark combined)
50k - Arryn
30-50k - Riverlands (Frey, Tully, and Darry)
30-50k - Crownlands
30k - Stormlands
20-30k Dorne (Martell and Yronwood)
20k - Iron Islands

[Mithridate]

The list below is a rough guide to how many soldiers I believe that each house should be able to field. Population is not quite so important to this study - More so I am looking to consider the maximum number of troops that a house should be able to support on a war-time economy (Maxed Taxes) without losing any money or being forced to destroy buildings.

As previously stated, Lannister likely has a 'quality over quantity' approach - However this is more about how many men Tywin could AFFORD to field, assuming population was less of an issue.

100k - The Reach (Hightower, Redwyne, and Tyrell)
80k Lannister
50k - The North (Bolton and Stark combined)
50k - Arryn
30-50k - Riverlands (Frey, Tully, and Darry)
30-50k - Crownlands
30k - Stormlands
20-30k Dorne (Martell and Yronwood)
20k - Iron Islands

Im inpressed, very similar to previous estimates. 50k May be a bit much for the North with a few thousands while its too much for the ( granted, fertile ) vale. Ive seen the values around 35-40.000 but 50.000? Heres a pretty good post:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Umber - 2500
Karstark - 3000
Mormont - 1000
Mountain Tribes - 4000
Skagos - 4000

Total of the Far North - about 14k

Bolton - 4000
Hornwood - 2000
Stark - 4000
Glover -2000
Tallhart -2000

Total of Mid-North - About 14k

Manderly - 6000 minimum (probably more like 8000)
Dustin - 3000 minimum
Ryswell - 2000
Reed - 3000

Total of the Southern North - About 14k

Total of the entire North 14k+14k+14k = 42000.

This is from a user named Free Northman on westeros.org
He is very pro-North, as you can see and Ran (Elio, he works with GRRM) stated his numbers are a little too high. That's for the North. So anything from 35-40,000 from the North seems plausible.

The general consensus among the forum users who discuss military is -

Dorne - 20-25,000 (Quentyn says 50,000, but we learn from Doran himself that that number is an exaggeration to make Dorne seem stronger than it really is. Also, Doran says Dorne is the weakest of the Seven Kingdoms minus the Iron Islands).

Stormlands - 30,000 Max (Ran said GRRM doesn't think much of the Stormland's military might. All we know is that Renly had 20,000 Stormlanders in his army).

Riverlands - 25,000-30,000 (Most users agree that as a fertile and densely populated region, the Riverlands should be able to gather a lot of men. Edmure originally sends 4,000 to the Golden Tooth and was training 16,000 outside Riverrun. Later on, he rallies 13,000 more men to repulse Tywin at the Fords, keep in mind this is also after sending men back with their lords to try and stop Clegane's raids).

Westerlands - 45,000 Max (Jaime had 15,000. Tywin had 20,000. 4,000 men managed to retreat from Riverrun and helped form Stafford's army which is a speculated 10,000 men after joining strength. We then learn that Daven was trying to reform another host to replace his father's).

The Reach - 100,000+. (Renly had 60,000 of them in his army. Mace had another 10,000 at Highgarden and Lord Leyton Hightower still hadn't committed most of his men if I remember correctly. Plus the Arbor fleet and that number goes over 100,000).

The Vale - We don't have much info on this region but most users tend to speculate that around 30,000 is a good number from what we hear.

The North - As above around 35-45,000 men.

The Iron Isles - Including their navy, most people seem to estimate 25k as the absolute maximum as the Iron Islands seem to have a warrior culture of sorts meaning there are more fighting men. Plus, "they do not sow".

That should hopefully clear up some numbers. Whilst most of them won't be correct, I'd say at least all of them are within 5,000 of the actual number.

But as you can see, the only region the Ironborn can match "man for man" is Dorne really, and Dorne happens to be the most difficult region to conquer.

20k for the isles is nice, but we can back up claims of 25.000 to a staggering 35.000 men.

Its stated that the Lannisters ( not sure about all the westerlands ) keep the best equiped and drilled troops in all of westeros btw.

[STELLover]

You should note that the Reach was the most populous meaning House Tyrell can field the most amount of levied troops. If you also look at real life examples, military size was roughly proportional to the nation's population size. House Baratheon would probably be next.

Lannister could definitely field more quality troops but not as numerous as Tyrell
I would say that Ironborn Warriors should be given a bit higher defense skill gamewise because I compare them to the Vikings- they were natural warriors. Maybe the same for the North.

The smallest military force I would say in the major houses is House Arryn

[Bacara]

You should note that the Reach was the most populous meaning House Tyrell can field the most amount of levied troops. If you also look at real life examples, military size was roughly proportional to the nation's population size. House Baratheon would probably be next.

Lannister could definitely field more quality troops but not as numerous as Tyrell
I would say that Ironborn Warriors should be given a bit higher defense skill gamewise because I compare them to the Vikings- they were natural warriors. Maybe the same for the North.

The smallest military force I would say in the major houses is House Arryn

Arryn? Noo.. Greyjoys have the smallest military force, maybe the strongest navy or one of the strongest, but still very few soldiers that can fight on land