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    Menelik_I's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Saudi Arabia arrest 41 on daring terror plot charges.

    Of attempting to celebrate Christmas !

    Saudi religious police stormed a house in the Saudi Arabian province of al-Jouf, detaining more than 41 guests for “plotting to celebrate Christmas,” a statement from the police branch released Wednesday night said.

    The raid is the latest in a string of religious crackdowns against residents perceived to threaten the country's strict religious code.

    The host of the alleged Christmas gathering is reported to be an Asian diplomat whose guests included 41 Christians, as well as two Saudi Arabian and Egyptian Muslims. The host and the two Muslims were said to be “severely intoxicated.”

    The guests were said to have been referred to the "respective authorities." It is unclear whether or not they have been released since.

    The kingdom, which only recognizes Islamic faith and practice, has in the past banned public Christmas celebrations, but is ambiguous about festivities staged in private quarters.

    Saudi religious police are known to detain residents of the kingdom at whim, citing loose interpretations of Sharia and public statements by hardline religious leaders to justify crackdowns.

    Saudi Arabia's head mufti Sheikh Abdel Aziz bin Abdullah had previously condemned “invitations to Christmas or wedding celebrations.”

    A member of the Higher Council of Islamic scholars in Saudi Arabia, Sheikh Mohammed al-Othaimin recently prohibited sending holiday wishes to "heretics" on Christmas or other religious Christian holidays.

    http://english.al-akhbar.com/content...rate-christmas
    While it is hilarious in a kind of sad way that the Saudis would spend resources to defuse this impressive plot, but in a year of increased anti-christianism thorough the world and outright persecution in the Muslim world, highlighted by the impeding danger over the Coptic Church in Egypt and increased violence against Christians in Nigeria, the future doesn't look bright.

    List of attacks against Christians through the world in October alone.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    These reports of the persecution of Christians by Muslims around the world during the month of October include (but are not limited to) the following accounts, listed by form of persecution, and by country, in alphabetical order—not according to severity.
    Church Attacks
    Canada: As happens regularly in Egypt (see below), a Molotov cocktail was hurled through the window of a newly opened Coptic church near Toronto. Unlike in Egypt, however, firefighters came quickly and little damage was done: "Police have no suspects or motive in the incident."
    Egypt: A Muslim mob, consisting mostly of Salafis, surrounded St. George Church in the Beni Suef Governorate. Armed with batons, they assaulted Christians as they exited the church after Sunday mass; five were hospitalized with broken limbs. The Salafi grievance is that Christians from neighboring villages, who have no churches to serve them, are traveling and attending St. George. The priest could not leave the church for hours after the mass, even though he contacted the police; they came only after a prominent Coptic lawyer complained to the Ministry of the Interior concerning the lack of response from police. "I want the whole world to know," he said, "that a priest and his congregation are presently held captive in their church, afraid of the Salafi Muslims surrounding the church." Separately, a group of Muslims, led by Mostafa Kamel, a prosecutor at the Alexandria Criminal Court, broke into the Church of St. Mary in Rashid near Alexandria and proceeded to destroy its altar, on claims that he bought the 9th century church; in fact it had earlier been sold to the Copts by the Greeks, due to the Greeks' dwindling numbers in Egypt. Two priests, Fr. Maximos and Fr. Luke, rushed to the police station to try to bring the police to help. Kamel and his two sons also came to the police station, where they openly threatened to kill the two priests and their lawyer. "We stayed at the police station for over six hours with the police, "Fr. Maximos said, "begging prosecutor Kamel and his two sons not to demolish the church." Fr. Luke said that the prosecutor had so far lost all the cases he brought against the church, "So when this route failed, he tried taking the matter into his own hands."
    Indonesia: On a Sunday, "unknown assailants" set fire to the Madele Pentecostal Church in the city of Poso by dousing a collection box with petrol and setting it alight. Flames eventually spread to the pastor's residence. Only the intervention of the fire department and volunteers prevented the blaze from causing major damage to the two buildings. Weeks earlier in the same region, Christian homes were attacked and bombed. Also, two law enforcement agents who were investigating a recent attack on the Christian community were kidnapped; their murdered bodies were later found dumped near an "extremist Muslim" group's training ground. Because Poso has a large Christian presence, Muslim attacks are frequent, including the 2005 beheading of three Christian girls going to school. Meanwhile in Aceh, Indonesian officials, using the famous pretext that a permit had not been issued, shut down nine [more] Christian house-churches and six Buddhist temples; they argued that homes cannot be used "for religious ceremonies or functions." According to the report, "Local Muslim extremists welcomed the decision. Yusuf Al-Qardhawy, head of the Aceh branch of the Islamic Defence Front (FPI), called on other jurisdictions to follow Banda Aceh and enforce Islamic law and stop any non-Muslim worship activity that is not approved." Further, the province of Aceh is the only one "which is subject to Sharia. Compliance is ensured by the 'morality police,' a special force that punishes violations in dress and behaviour."
    Iran: Security forces dismantled a network of four underground house churches and arrested seven Christians on a Sunday night. Iranian propaganda media described the churches as a "network of criminals" affiliated with "Zionist propaganda." Sunday's arrests are the latest in a wave of detentions in Shiraz. In the past few weeks, Iranian Intelligence Ministry agents in the city have arrested around 30 Christian converts and transferred them to detention centers. According to another report, "State security agents have been permanently stationed at two churches in Esfahan, Iran, in the latest effort by the Islamic regime to frighten people off Christianity. The agents constantly interfere in the activities of St. Luke's and St. Paul's, and harass those present. They order the pastors around and stop church elders from talking to Muslim seekers. They also try to frighten away visitors by warning them of dire consequences if they continue attending, and create tension among the members by spreading false rumours. The children of church members are also threatened and often forbidden from attending…. This campaign of harassment by the Islamic authorities is not confined to churches in Esfahan. Similar tactics have been deployed at the central Assemblies of God church in Tehran."
    Kazakhstan: Two Protestant churches were raided, according to members, under the ruse of a criminal case launched 15 months ago. First, masked police raided Grace Church and seized computers, valuables and religious books they insisted were "extremist;" then police requested church members to give blood samples, to see if the church uses "hallucinogenic" substances for communion. Nine days later the New Life Church was raided, also under the pretext of the unrelated criminal case: "Members of both churches fear the authorities will use the case to prevent them gaining the mandatory re-registration," which critics say is being used to shut down Protestant churches.
    Kenya: A grenade was thrown into the Sunday school building of St. Polycarp Anglican Church; it blew off the roof, killing one boy and injuring eight other children who were attending Sunday school; some required surgery. The attack came soon after a Somali member of the Islamic terrorist organization Al Shabab, who had earlier targeted four other churches, was sentenced to prison after he confessed to planning attacks on Parliament. According to the mother of one of the children, "We are in Eastleigh [a region with a large Somali population]. Many Christians, including myself, thought that something might happen. Every week we'd wonder 'What if it's this Sunday?' But we'd still go to church." Likewise, a parliament member said, "The life of an innocent child has been taken and others have been cruelly injured and traumatised in what should be the safest of places. The sanctity of life has been heartlessly breached in a sanctified place. Such acts seem to be designed to spark civil unrest and intimidate the Christian church. In the face of such an outrage we ask, with the prophet Habakkuk, 'O Lord, how long?' and let us trust that God in his mercy will bring justice and relief as we cry out to him."
    Nigeria: After a renewed spate of church attacks, thousands of Christians continue to flee northern areas of Nigeria, which are predominantly Muslim, and where the jihadi organization Boko Haram holds sway. An Islamic suicide bomber rammed an SUV loaded with explosives into St. Rita Catholic Church holding Sunday Mass; he killed eight people and wounded more than 100. One "journalist saw the bodies of four worshippers lying on the floor of the church after the blast, surrounded by broken glass. The body of the suicide bomber had been blasted into nearby rubble." The church building, charred black, was devastated. Also, the Church of Brethren was raided by Islamic gunmen who killed at least two people and set the church ablaze. Many churches, fearing further attacks, are shutting down.
    Pakistan: The Catholic Church of St. Francis, the oldest of the archdiocese of Karachi, was attacked by a Muslim mob of 600, who destroyed property but did not manage to break through the front door. According to a priest: "Fr. Victor had just finished celebrating a wedding, when he heard noises and shouting from the compound of the church. Immediately all the faithful, women and children were sent to the parish house. The radicals, shouting against the Christians, broke into the building and started devastating everything: cars, bikes, vases of flowers. They broke an aedicule and took the statue of the Madonna. They tried to force the door of the church, throwing stones at the church and destroying the windows." Police arrived an hour later, giving the terrorists plenty of time to wreak havoc. The Archbishop of Karachi lamented that "the church of San Francesco has always served the poor with a school and a medical clinic run by nuns. For nearly 80 years it carries out a humble service to humanity without any discrimination of caste, ethnicity or religion. Why these acts? Why are we not safe? "
    Syria: Two churches were attacked. One bomb was detonated near the historical gate of Bab Touma ("Thomas' Doorway") which is largely populated by the nation's Christian minority. The bomb exploded as people were going to their churches for Sunday Mass; up to 10 people were killed. "Terrorists are doing this," said George, a Christian who, like many residents in Bab Touma, lives in fear of the rebel fighters trying to gain control of the capital. Another car bomb exploded in front of the only Syrian Orthodox Church in the town of Deir Ezzor, currently under opposition control. Five people near the church were killed. In September, the same church was desecrated and vandalized by armed gangs.
    Tanzania: Muslim mobs burned several church buildings in various parts of the nation after an argument by two children concerning the supernatural powers of the Quran allegedly led a Christian boy to defile Islam's holy book: two church buildings were set ablaze, while the roof of another one was destroyed. On the island of Zanzibar, Muslim rioters also demolished a building belonging to the Evangelical Assemblies of God; and in Dar es Salaam, three more church buildings were set on fire and another destroyed. "We shall continue attacking the churches until they are no more in Tanzania" was echoed in several mosques in Tanzania," said one source.
    Rape and Murder of Christians
    Egypt: Ali Hussein, a Muslim gang leader—accompanied with his two ex-convict brothers—broke into the home of a Christian family on a Sunday morning, demanding that Hiyam Zaki, a mother of two children, to "come and live with him." Earlier, Hussein had demanded that the family either pay him one million Egyptian pounds, or forfeit the Christian woman to him. Because the family had refused his demands, the gang opened fire indiscriminately, killing one of her relatives and her father. Earlier, to terrorize the inhabitants of the village, the Muslim gang went to the stables and slaughtered all the animals. Hussein was killed under the hail of bullets, although it is not clear who shot him. A Muslim mob then surrounded the hospital demanding revenge for the "Christian killing of a Muslim man," even as they chanted that Hussein the gangster is "the beloved of the Prophet." Similarly, although the abduction and forced Islamization of Christian minor girls is common in Egypt, especially with the ascendancy of Muslim Brotherhood, the case of 14-year old Sarah, who was kidnapped on her way to school by the son of a Salafi leader, actually caused a stir. After filing a missing persons report with police, Sarah's father received an anonymous call telling him that he will never see his daughter again. Security is believed to know the girl's whereabouts but is not acting. After several human rights organizations called for the girl's release, "the Salafist Front issued a statement on October 28, warning human rights organizations, especially the National Council for Women, not to attempt to return Sarah to her family, as she has converted to Islam and married a Muslim man." Moreover, Salafis projected Islamic mores on the Christian family by saying that if Sarah returns to her family, she will be "killed" by her father," to which her father replied, "I want my child back in my arms, even if she became a Muslim."
    Nigeria: Up to 30 Christian college students were shot or had their throats slit at a university in the Muslim-majority north. During the night, masked gunmen went door-to-door in the off-campus housing section of Federal Polytechnic College in the city of Moby: "the gunmen separated the Christian students from the Muslim students, addressed each victim by name, questioned them, and then proceeded to shoot them or slit their throat." Among motives cited are reprisals against the fact that former Boko Haram Muslims, renouncing terrorism, converted to Christianity. Other former Boko Haram members have not converted to Christianity but have seen the "goodness of the Christian religion" and now warn Christians before there is an attack.
    Pakistan: A 14 year-old Christian girl, Timar Shahzadi, was kidnapped by Muslim men as she was returning from school. According to the pastor close to the family, the girl was with friends when the abductors pounced and dragged her away, and her family fears that she will be "forcefully converted to become a Muslim and then married off if immediate steps are not taken." The family reported the incident to the local police station, but police have not yet conducted any investigation. Also, a court decreed that a Christian girl, known as Rebecca—who was kidnapped, forced to convert to Islam, and married to her abductor—to be returned to her kidnapper "husband," despite her father's pleas and the girls traumatized presence in court. And 24 year-old Shumaila Bibi, another Christian woman, was "seized at dawn, forced to endure sexual abuse and to marry the young Muslim man who abducted her with the help of his family" and forced the woman to convert to Islam. Days later, Shumaila managed to escape. However, with the help of his family, her "husband" denounced her flight and, reversing the facts, reported her family as "kidnapping" her. The police accepted his version of the facts and opened an investigation claiming that the girl converted and married "of her own free will." The future of Shumaila is hanging by a thread. Kidnapping and forcing girls to convert to Islam and/or be sex-slaves sold to wealthy Muslims is a common occurrence in Pakistan. Read here for a list concerning the "Rape and Murder of Pakistan's Christian Children."
    Sudan: Asia Omer, a Christian mother of seven, the youngest of which is four months old, was killed in an aerial bombardment near a church by "Sudanese government forces as they continue a ruthless campaign of ethnic and religious cleansing in the predominantly Christian regions of the Nuba Mountains." Another Christian mother of seven sustained a critical injury but did not receive medical care. Other Christians were also wounded in the bombing, including the teenage son of a church leader. "President Omar al-Bashir's forces have been targeting the Nuba Mountains in South Kordofan state, which has one of the largest Christian populations in Sudan, since June 2011. The Islamic regime is trying to 'cleanse' the region of non-Arabs and non-Muslims as Khartoum pushes forward its plans for a '100% Islamic"' constitution."
    Syria: A Greek Orthodox priest, Fr. Fadi Jamil Haddad, was kidnapped by armed groups from among the opposition. Days later, his body, which was "horribly tortured and his eyes gouged out," was found dumped near the place he was abducted. Earlier, the kidnappers had asked the priest's family and his church for a ransom of 50 million Syrian pounds (over $550,000 euros)—a sum impossible to raise. A source of Fides condemns "the terrible practice, present for months in this dirty war, of kidnapping and then killing innocent civilians." Also, the last remaining Christian in the center of Homs, an 84 year-old Greek Orthodox, was killed, and the convent of the Jesuits hit again. A top Russian Orthodox official expressed the church's concern, saying "We are deeply worried by what is going on in Syria, where radical forces are trying to come to power with the help of Western powers. Where they come to power, Christian communities become the first victims."
    Dhimmitude
    [General Abuse and Suppression of Non-Muslims as "Tolerated" Citizens]
    Bosnia: According to a new report, Christians are leaving the Muslim majority nation in mass "amid mounting discrimination and Islamization." Currently there are just 440,000 Catholics left in the Balkan nation, half the prewar figure. As standard in Muslim nations, "while dozens of mosques were built in the Bosnian capital Sarajevo, no building permissions were given for Christian churches. The cardinal already waits 13 years on permission to build just a small church." "Time is running out as there is a worrisome rise in radicalism," said one authority, who added that the people of Bosnia-Herzegovina were "persecuted for centuries" after European powers "failed to support them in their struggle against the Ottoman Empire."
    Egypt: On Al Hafiz TV, a Muslim cleric explained why it is that Christianity cannot be taught in Egyptian classrooms: because, among other things, it bans polygamy and divorce, and allows females an equal inheritance with the male -- all things that contradict the teachings and practices of the Muslim prophet. The cleric complained that, based on such Christian teachings, Muslim men who try to exercise their Islamic rights—including polygamy, double-inheritance, and easy divorce (including via text-messaging)—become "criminals, and the religion [Islam] that taught them such things taught them crimes." Two Christian boys, one 10 the other 9 years-old, were arrested under accusations from a local cleric that they defiled a copy of the Quran. After the boys were released, the Egyptian media, following the claims of the Muslim Brotherhood, credited President Morsi with their release, even though the boys' lawyer insisted that the Islamist president had nothing to do with their release.
    Iran: Many reports more than usual, are appearing of Christian men and women, especially Evangelical Protestants and Muslim apostates, being "dragged to prisons". According to a council member of the Church of Iran house-church movement, "We have learned that at least 100, but perhaps as many as 400 people, have been detained over the last 10 days…. [I]t has become clear that Protestant Christians are now viewed as enemy number one of the state." Some of those arrested, after serving time and being tormented, are "forced to say that in exchange for freedom, they will no longer attend church services." At least five apostates were confined in cells housing dangerous criminals on charges of "creating illegal groups," "participating in a house church service," "propagation against the Islamic regime," and "defaming Islamic holy figures through Christian evangelizing."
    Maldives: Customs officials at the Male' Ibrahim Nasir International Airport seized 11 books about Christianity, from a Bangladeshi expatriate who came to the Maldives via Sri Lanka. According to the Maldives Religious Unity Regulations, "it is illegal in the Maldives to propagate any faith other than Islam or to engage in any effort to convert anyone to any religion other than Islam. It is also illegal to display in public any symbols or slogans belonging to any religion other than Islam, or creating interest in such articles." Violation of the Religious Unity Act is subject to two to five years in prison and fines.
    Pakistan: A 16 year-old boy, Ryan Stanten, was arrested on "charges of blasphemy, terrorism, and cybercrimes," because he forwarded text messages to his friends which were intercepted and deemed blasphemous by Muslims. Accordingly, a "furious Muslim mob" attacked the boy's home, setting furniture on fire and shouting "death to the blasphemer" and "kill Christian infidels." Other Christians in the region fled.
    Saudi Arabia: Despite promises to reform school textbooks, the Saudi education system continues to indoctrinate children with hatred and incitement, especially against Christians and Jews. The textbooks teach – among a long list of hate-filled passages, all of which originate in the Qur'an and the Hadith [stories of the life and sayings of Mohammed] -- that "Christians are the enemies of the Believers" and that the "the Apes are the people of the Sabbath, the Jews; and the Swine are the infidels of the communion of Jesus, the Christians."
    Switzerland: Muslims in the nation are complaining about a billboard campaign from Swiss International Airline, which has a logo taken from the Swizz flag, of a cross, with the words "the cross is trumps." According to the report, "Muslims in Switzerland have responded negatively to the advertising, which they believe promotes Christianity over other religions…. Many Muslims feel this Christian slogan (of Swiss) is a provocation and an assault against Islam." The airline maintains that its ad campaign does not carry any religious or political message—in fact, that the word "trumps" is a pun for a Swiss card game—and apologized for upsetting Muslims.
    Turkey: A history textbook used in 10th grade classrooms portrays the nation's oldest most indigenous inhabitants, the Christian Assyrians, as traitors. Although objections were raised back in 2011 and the Turkish Ministry of Education eventually issued a statement promising to revise the texts in the next printing of the book in 2012, the books were reprinted without any changes. "In fact, the negative and slanderous portrayal of Assyrians has increased in the new edition. The book now not only portrays Assyrians as traitors in the past but says the Assyrians continue their betrayal of Turkey today."

    http://www.meforum.org/3395/muslim-p...s-october-2012


    Thank you Saudi Arabia, for once you make me agree with Pat Condell in one of his most NSFW and probably offensive videos date. Merry Christmas to you and the Moon Rock you guard.

    Alert, video might offend you in a very painful way.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Is there any hope of decreased anti-Christianism in the Middle East if for one end the "moderates" behave as the Saudis and everybody else is getting a Hamas-MB style government ?

    Discuss.

    Edit: Here is a small christian carol to listen while reading this.

    Last edited by Menelik_I; December 28, 2012 at 10:49 AM.
    « Le courage est toujours quelque chose de saint, un jugement divin entre deux idées. Défendre notre cause de plus en plus vigoureusement est conforme à la nature humaine. Notre suprême raison d’être est donc de lutter ; on ne possède vraiment que ce qu’on acquiert en combattant. »Ernst Jünger
    La Guerre notre Mère (Der Kampf als inneres Erlebnis), 1922, trad. Jean Dahel, éditions Albin Michel, 1934

  2. #2
    sabaku_no_gaara's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Saudi Arabia arrest 41 on daring terror plot charges.

    I love Pat Condel

  3. #3

    Default Re: Saudi Arabia arrest 41 on daring terror plot charges.

    Saudi Arabia is very despotic country. USA went on war with taliban, and meanwhile oppresive Saudi family is US ally.

  4. #4
    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Saudi Arabia arrest 41 on daring terror plot charges.

    Quote Originally Posted by NRohirrim View Post
    Saudi Arabia is very despotic country. USA went on war with taliban, and meanwhile oppresive Saudi family is US ally.
    We can't just go and kill everyone who we disagree with NRohirrim. Do you know how much that would cost?

    We went into Afghanistan because that's where Al Qaeda was. Al Qaeda are also enemies of the Saud. Thus we didn't go after them. The "War on Terror" sounds broad on paper, but it's fairly narrow in execution.
    Last edited by Col. Tartleton; December 28, 2012 at 02:06 PM.
    The Earth is inhabited by billions of idiots.
    The search for intelligent life continues...

  5. #5

    Default Re: Saudi Arabia arrest 41 on daring terror plot charges.

    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Tartleton View Post
    We can't just go and kill everyone who we disagree with NRohirrim. Do you know how much that would cost?
    I know it well and I never said that USA and allies (I'm Polish) have to invade them. What I meant: having ally like Saudi Arabia can be controversial.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heinz Guderian View Post
    If its not the Muslims in Saudi arresting Xmas revellers, its the Jews in Israel sealing off Bethlehem or sieging the Church of the Nativity.

    Just let them celebrate Xmas.
    I think that Israelis and Saudis are worthy each other in that matter.


    Maybe Saudi Arabia has 0 taxes, but everything else is very repressive there. Even for the native muslims, I guess. And country where U can get death sentence just for having the Bible indeed got very stupid law. I don't even know how they joined to UN.
    Last edited by NRohirrim; December 28, 2012 at 05:40 PM.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Saudi Arabia arrest 41 on daring terror plot charges.

    Jeez that guy is ignorant as hell. Fighting ignorance with ignorance makes the whole world retarded.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Saudi Arabia arrest 41 on daring terror plot charges.

    I would be against this, except for the fact that Islam is true and as such preventing the straying of Muslims away from the Prophet (pbuh) is doing Gods work.

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    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Saudi Arabia arrest 41 on daring terror plot charges.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sphere View Post
    I would be against this, except for the fact that Islam is true and as such preventing the straying of Muslims away from the Prophet (pbuh) is doing Gods work.
    Christmas makes Muslims stray from the prophet Muhammad? How so?

    It's a holiday simply celebrating the birth of Jesus. You know, one of those prophets in Islam before Muhammad.

    How's that blasphemous? Aside from the fact that we don't know the actual birthdate of Jesus and the whole holiday has roots in Greco-Roman paganism.

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    Default Re: Saudi Arabia arrest 41 on daring terror plot charges.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Christmas makes Muslims stray from the prophet Muhammad? How so?

    It's a holiday simply celebrating the birth of Jesus. You know, one of those prophets in Islam before Muhammad.

    How's that blasphemous? Aside from the fact that we don't know the actual birthdate of Jesus and the whole holiday has roots in Greco-Roman paganism.
    It is a pagan Christian tradition and should stay on Christian soil. It has no basis in Islam and Muslims don't need it.

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    s.rwitt's Avatar Shamb Conspiracy Member
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    Default Re: Saudi Arabia arrest 41 on daring terror plot charges.

    Quote Originally Posted by Central Asian Qaghan View Post
    It is a pagan Christian tradition and should stay on Christian soil. It has no basis in Islam and Muslims don't need it.
    Should Muslims in the West be allowed to celebrate Ramadan?

  11. #11

    Default Re: Saudi Arabia arrest 41 on daring terror plot charges.

    Quote Originally Posted by s.rwitt View Post
    Should Muslims in the West be allowed to celebrate Ramadan?
    No, they have to celebrate a traditional Hopi new year like the rest of us.

    Patronized by the mighty Heinz Guderian

  12. #12

    Default Re: Saudi Arabia arrest 41 on daring terror plot charges.

    Quote Originally Posted by s.rwitt View Post
    Should Muslims in the West be allowed to celebrate Ramadan?
    Frankly, I don't care. I've been asked this a couple of times and I'm personally sick of it. The "West" is not Dar-al-Islam and I could frankly care less what goes on there. I'd just prefer the West to leave Dar-al-Islam alone.

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    Heinz Guderian's Avatar *takes off trousers
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    Default Re: Saudi Arabia arrest 41 on daring terror plot charges.

    If its not the Muslims in Saudi arresting Xmas revellers, its the Jews in Israel sealing off Bethlehem or sieging the Church of the Nativity.

    Just let them celebrate Xmas.

    Edit: haha, i bet Pat Condell doesnt make videos how Christians are harassed during Xmas is Israel. Good old Pat.

    Edit2: just a quick fact to piss Menelik off: half of Bethlehem is made up of Palestinian Christians who've been there for centuries/nay millenia
    Last edited by Heinz Guderian; December 28, 2012 at 02:08 PM.




  14. #14

    Default Re: Saudi Arabia arrest 41 on daring terror plot charges.

    Quote Originally Posted by Menelik_I View Post
    Of attempting to celebrate Christmas !

    While it is hilarious in a kind of sad way that the Saudis would spend resources to defuse this impressive plot, but in a year of increased anti-christianism thorough the world and outright persecution in the Muslim world, highlighted by the impeding danger over the Coptic Church in Egypt and increased violence against Christians in Nigeria, the future doesn't look bright.

    List of attacks against Christians through the world in October alone.



    Thank you Saudi Arabia, for once you make me agree with Pat Condell in one of his most NSFW and probably offensive videos date. Merry Christmas to you and the Moon Rock you guard.

    Alert, video might offend you in a very painful way.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Is there any hope of decreased anti-Christianism in the Middle East if for one end the "moderates" behave as the Saudis and everybody else is getting a Hamas-MB style government ?

    Discuss.

    Edit: Here is a small christian carol to listen while reading this.

    Actually there are still Christians in Bethlehem, and while there has been problems between Muslims in Christians in recent years I would say it certainly wasn't ing Muslims who drove the Christians away but the crippling conditions of living under occupation.

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    Menelik_I's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Saudi Arabia arrest 41 on daring terror plot charges.

    Quote Originally Posted by tarvu View Post
    Actually there are still Christians in Bethlehem, and while there has been problems between Muslims in Christians in recent years I would say it certainly wasn't ing Muslims who drove the Christians away but the crippling conditions of living under occupation.
    So why is the Muslim population of Bethlehem growing ? You would think that the town would become a ghost town if it was just about the economy shrinking ?

    Also what nonsense crippling conditions ? The PA is responsible for 90% of the policies that affect people in the West Bank ... so the occupation of government offices by PLO terrorists might be the occupation your are talking about. That same Palestinian government that legalized Honor killings of women and whose electorate voted for arch Islamist Hamas.
    « Le courage est toujours quelque chose de saint, un jugement divin entre deux idées. Défendre notre cause de plus en plus vigoureusement est conforme à la nature humaine. Notre suprême raison d’être est donc de lutter ; on ne possède vraiment que ce qu’on acquiert en combattant. »Ernst Jünger
    La Guerre notre Mère (Der Kampf als inneres Erlebnis), 1922, trad. Jean Dahel, éditions Albin Michel, 1934

  16. #16

    Default Re: Saudi Arabia arrest 41 on daring terror plot charges.

    Quote Originally Posted by Menelik_I View Post
    So why is the Muslim population of Bethlehem growing ? You would think that the town would become a ghost town if it was just about the economy shrinking ?

    Also what nonsense crippling conditions ? The PA is responsible for 90% of the policies that affect people in the West Bank ... so the occupation of government offices by PLO terrorists might be the occupation your are talking about. That same Palestinian government that legalized Honor killings of women and whose electorate voted for arch Islamist Hamas.
    The Muslim population in Bethlehem is growing because:

    High birth rate, and lack of opportunity to emigrate compared to Bethlehem Christians.

    Also more precisely tied to Bethlehem itself between 2005-2008 demolitions in Beit Sahour which is majority Muslim (and really a part of the Beit Jala, Bethlehem, Beit Sahour "metropolis") has led to more people moving into Bethlehem Refugee camps (many of which are funded by Christian groups).

    policies, the occupation has killed the once booming economy in Bethlehem, especially its tourist industry (which huge surprise here, Christian). It is the reason most affluent families have left, and most affluent families in Bethlehem were Christian.

    For 's sake look at when they left. They didn't just start emigrating once Hamas gained local control in Bethlehem, no they left during the period where Bethlehem Christians had by far the most power. They had gauruntee on the mayorship and the majority of the local council for decades. The largest recent emigration which decimated the community happened after the last intifada and is a result of that occupation and the restrictions that went into place after it(along with the construction of the wall) which restricted people from working in Israel and in Jerusalem.

    There is persecution sure, there is honor killings (in Muslim families), there is lots of bad things that go on in Palestine. But one thing Muslims did not do is run the Christians out of Bethlehem, nope Israel takes the prize for that wonderful accomplishment.

  17. #17
    Menelik_I's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Saudi Arabia arrest 41 on daring terror plot charges.

    Quote Originally Posted by tarvu View Post
    The Muslim population in Bethlehem is growing because:

    High birth rate, and lack of opportunity to emigrate compared to Bethlehem Christians.

    Also more precisely tied to Bethlehem itself between 2005-2008 demolitions in Beit Sahour which is majority Muslim (and really a part of the Beit Jala, Bethlehem, Beit Sahour "metropolis") has led to more people moving into Bethlehem Refugee camps (many of which are funded by Christian groups).

    policies, the occupation has killed the once booming economy in Bethlehem, especially its tourist industry (which huge surprise here, Christian). It is the reason most affluent families have left, and most affluent families in Bethlehem were Christian.

    For 's sake look at when they left. They didn't just start emigrating once Hamas gained local control in Bethlehem, no they left during the period where Bethlehem Christians had by far the most power. They had gauruntee on the mayorship and the majority of the local council for decades. The largest recent emigration which decimated the community happened after the last intifada and is a result of that occupation and the restrictions that went into place after it(along with the construction of the wall) which restricted people from working in Israel and in Jerusalem.

    There is persecution sure, there is honor killings (in Muslim families), there is lots of bad things that go on in Palestine. But one thing Muslims did not do is run the Christians out of Bethlehem, nope Israel takes the prize for that wonderful accomplishment.
    If you are going to blame this on the Intifada then blame the PLO because Arafat planned the second Intifada all along as He was negotiating the peace deal.

    The only reason why the IDF had to re-enter the West Bank and get securities up to eleven is because Arafat choose a military confrontation He knew would damage his own people, instead of a deal that would made life better for them.

    Ego is the word I am looking for.
    « Le courage est toujours quelque chose de saint, un jugement divin entre deux idées. Défendre notre cause de plus en plus vigoureusement est conforme à la nature humaine. Notre suprême raison d’être est donc de lutter ; on ne possède vraiment que ce qu’on acquiert en combattant. »Ernst Jünger
    La Guerre notre Mère (Der Kampf als inneres Erlebnis), 1922, trad. Jean Dahel, éditions Albin Michel, 1934

  18. #18

    Default Re: Saudi Arabia arrest 41 on daring terror plot charges.

    Quote Originally Posted by Menelik_I View Post
    If you are going to blame this on the Intifada then blame the PLO because Arafat planned the second Intifada all along as He was negotiating the peace deal.

    The only reason why the IDF had to re-enter the West Bank and get securities up to eleven is because Arafat choose a military confrontation He knew would damage his own people, instead of a deal that would made life better for them.

    Ego is the word I am looking for.
    Arafat too, but months of curfew followed by travel restrictions that made it so most Palestinians in the West Bank could no longer work in Israel which for Bethlehem was a death blow to its economy. Throw in the wall they put up right at the edge of town and it sucks.

    So now you have whatever racist hate spewing piece of youtube channel you follow with some stupid video about how Muslims are running the Christians out of Bethlehem. There is not one single Palestinian Christian in exodus who would agree with this, it is without a doubt the conditions of the occupation which led to the exodus.

    This video you have posted is just another piece of propaganda and economic terrorism committed by extremist Israeli's to scare even more Christians away from Bethlehem. It is nothing new, even in 2005 you had buses from Israel filled with Christian tourists who would bypass Bethlehem telling Christians that it was the "wrong Bethlehem" and taking them to a nearby illegal settlement that they have set up just to steal tourism from real Christians.

    The Church of the Nativity is in Bethlehem, the largest Christian population in all of Palestine-Israel is IN Bethlehem (was at least it might be Nazareth now), the University of Bethlehem is funded by the Catholic church as well as refugee camps, homes for the blind and mentally ill, schools, clinics etc.

    The mayor of Bethlehem, a Christian by law is one of the most traveled politicians in Palestine serving as an emissary to Christian nations around the world. Bethlehem suffers because of a campaign of lies and slander by Israeli settlers and their ignorant or complicit supporters.

    My good friend a Palestinian Christian was beaten unconscious on Christmas eve outside of Beit Jibrin refugee camp for celebrating Christmas seven years ago. He didn't leave, he left because there was finally no work. Just like there is no full time work for upwards of 80% of Bethlehem working age adults. Muslims didn't do that, the occupation does that.

  19. #19
    Blaze86420's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Saudi Arabia arrest 41 on daring terror plot charges.

    Quote Originally Posted by Menelik_I View Post
    So why is the Muslim population of Bethlehem growing ? You would think that the town would become a ghost town if it was just about the economy shrinking ?
    Lol, do you think that populations stop growing when economies decline or if it's simply a poor country? What world are you living in? Are you aware of Africa's population growth?

    Also what nonsense crippling conditions ? The PA is responsible for 90% of the policies that affect people in the West Bank ... so the occupation of government offices by PLO terrorists might be the occupation your are talking about. That same Palestinian government that legalized Honor killings of women and whose electorate voted for arch Islamist Hamas.
    Yes, and I'm sure the fact that Israel controls power, water sources, taxes, military outposts, checkpoints, and settlements all across the West Bank has absolutely no bearing on the situation what so ever. Meanwhile, you have to resort to empty rhetoric like calling the PLO a terrorist organization when even Israel and the US do not consider it as such, and speaking of honor killings that never happened.

    OK, you know what, I'll cut this BS short and jump straight for the facts and I'll let you fumble for a rebuttal then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiki
    The vast majority of Palestinian Christians in the diaspora are those who fled or were expelled during the 1948 war and their descendants Reuters has reported that the emigrants since then have left in pursuit of better living standards. The BBC has also blamed the economic decline in the Palestinian Territories as well as pressure from the Israeli-Palestinian conflict for the exodus. A report on Bethlehem residents stated both Christians and Muslims wished to leave but the Christians possessed better contacts with people abroad and higher levels of education. The Vatican and the Catholic Church blamed the Israeli occupation and the conflict in the Holy Land for the Christian exodus from the Holy Land and the Middle East in general.

    The Jerusalem Post (an Israeli newspaper) has stated that the "shrinking of the Palestinian Christian community in the Holy Land came as a direct result of its middle-class standards" and that Muslim pressure has not played a major role according to Christian residents themselves. It reported that the Christians have a public image of elitism and of class privilege as well as of non-violence and of open personalities, which leaves them more vulnerable to criminals than Muslims. Hanna Siniora, a prominent Christian Palestinian human rights activist, has attributed harassment against Christians to "little groups" of "hoodlums" rather than to the Hamas and Fatah governments.

    According to a report in The Independent, thousands of Christian Palestinians "emigrated to Latin America in the 1920s when Palestine was hit by drought and a severe economic depression."
    Today, Chile houses the largest Palestinian Christian community in the world outside of the Palestine region. As many as 350,000 Palestinian Christians reside in Chile, most of whom were from Beit Jala, Bethlehem, and Beit Sahur. Also, El Salvador, Honduras, Brazil, Colombia, Argentina, Venezuela, and other Latin American countries have significant Palestinian Christian communities, some of whom immigrated almost a century ago during the time of Ottoman Palestine. During the 2008 Gaza War, Palestinian Christians in Chile demonstrated against the Israeli bombardment of Gaza. They were hoping to move the government into altering it's relations with Israel.

    In a 2006 poll of Christians in Bethlehem by the Palestinian Centre for Research and Cultural Dialogue, 90% reported having Muslim friends, 73.3% agreed that the Palestinian Authority treats Christian heritage in the city with respect, and 78% attributed the ongoing exodus of Christians from Bethlehem to the Israeli occupation and travel restrictions on the area. Daniel Rossing, the Israeli Ministry of Religious Affairs' chief liaison to Christians in the 1970s and 1980s, has stated that the situations for them in Gaza became much worse after the election of Hamas. He also stated that the Palestinian Authority, which counts on Christian westerners for financial support, treats the minority fairly. He blamed the Israeli West Bank barrier as the primary problem for the Christians.

    The United States State Department's 2006 report on religious freedom criticized both Israel for its restrictions on travel to Christian holy sites and the Palestinian Authority for its failure to stamp out anti-Christian crime. It also reported that the former gives preferential treatment in basic civic services to Jews and the latter does so to Muslims. The report stated that, generally, ordinary Muslim and Christian citizens enjoy good relations in contrast to the "strained" Jewish and non-Jewish relations. A 2005 BBC report also described Muslim and Christian relations as "peaceful".

    The Arab Human Rights Association, an Arab NGO in Israel, has stated that Israeli authorities have denied Palestinian Christians in Israel access to holy places, prevented repairs needed to preserve historic holy sites, and carried out physical attacks on religious leaders.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palesti...ian_emigration

    Menelik doesn't really care about the plight of Palestinian Christians, he's just using their hardships to score political points for the Pro-Israeli side. Nothing new here. Also, for anyone interested, check out Kairos Palestine if you want to hear what Palestinian Christians living in Israel really think about this situation.
    Last edited by Blaze86420; December 28, 2012 at 08:54 PM.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Saudi Arabia arrest 41 on daring terror plot charges.

    Quote Originally Posted by Menelik I
    You would think that the town would become a ghost town if it was just about the economy shrinking ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze86420 View Post
    Lol, do you think that populations stop growing when economies decline or if it's simply a poor country? What world are you living in? Are you aware of Africa's population growth?
    It's part of Israeli politic to hold Palestinians in ghettos and in lower standards. But they don't know, that it won't help. Palestinian population will outlast Jewish population (there are no more big Jewish immigration to Israel, and even some Jews want to emigrate from Israel, because not every one wants to live in heavy militaristic state) and in some time Jews will become minority in Israel.
    Last edited by NRohirrim; December 29, 2012 at 04:23 AM.

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