Spears,Pikes

[King of the Ring]

Spears and Pikes are most likely effective against armor.

A sword can't cut through armor because, at the impact the impact force spreads along the sword's cutting edge.

A mace or a hammer can penetrate it because the impact force has a small edge to fill.

So are the pikes and spears.The impact zone is a tiny little spot, so if you stab with full force you can make a little gap in plate armor.

[napoleonic]

and so?

[Savoyard]

A sword is much handier, though.

[Dude with the Food]

Yeah, you get more power swinging something weighted than stabbing with a pole. Especially when the pole is over 5ft. Also, I'm not sure on this but if tou hit armour with a mace, wouldn't the force snap any straps holding the armour and then the armour would become the weapon. You'd just be pushing with the mace. Very hard.

[callback]

Yeah, you get more power swinging something weighted than stabbing with a pole. Especially when the pole is over 5ft.

The point is that that pole (when used in formation by trained soldiers) does not permit you to get within effective range of the sword. The sword is an ideal weapon for close combat, but you have to be able to close to use it effectively.

[fredtrotter]

It is possible to stab with a sword...
Also, the force that is generated from swinging a sword is greater than the thrusting movement that you use with a spear, so even with the slightly larger surface area it is possible to have a stronger pressure applied by the sword.
A halberd however has a better chance of penetrating armour due to the larger force generated while still having a lower surface area.

[totalwar_legend]

I tink you're forgetting about the ultimate weapon of the middle ages. The pitchfork. It has 3-4 stabbing skewers. How can you go wrong?

[Aeratus]

It is certainly true that swords weren't that useful in actual combat as they are portrayed today.

Swords were good for Knights trying to kill minimally armored peasants. However, when heavy armor was used, swords slashes were nearly useless.

The big two-handed swords were designed mainly for thrusting and for swinging the weapon like a club. The sharp edge of these weapons were comparatively useless against armor.

[shikaka]

It is certainly true that swords weren't that useful in actual combat as they are portrayed today.

Swords were good for Knights trying to kill minimally armored peasants. However, when heavy armor was used, swords slashes were nearly useless.

Well, most of the armies in medieval battles were minimally armored (leather jerkins, coats, brigandines, etc.), that makes sword useful against like 95% of the opposition?

[Herpus Derpus]

Steel crossbows would most likely obliterate any charge, well-timed and aimed. Not to say pike and shot wasn't awesome though.

[Aeratus]

Actually, the crossbowmen would only obliterate the first row of the chargers.

Unlike bows, crossbows can't easily fire in an arc so that the arrows rain down over an area. This is because it is difficult to adjust the release power of a crossbow.

[Herpus Derpus]

Actually, the crossbowmen would only obliterate the first row of the chargers.

Unlike bows, crossbows can't easily fire in an arc so that the arrows rain down over an area. This is because it is difficult to adjust the release power of a crossbow.

You must remember, they are not the ballistic engineered weapons we have today, some will miss and hit the man behind, while others might fire a bit late after teh first row went down.

[Gimnbo]

A spear isn't getting through plate unless there's already an existing gap, at which point any weapon will do damage. Plate armor is rounded so that points will glance off to the side. For a spear to penetrate a piece of metal it would have to pretty much be guided by a dent in the metal to a single point where it won't slide around (which is why fantasy boobplates for women are terrible; the cleavage would guide the point straight to the middle of the chest). This would be an obvious flaw in the armor and I doubt someone would wear plate armor with a dent in it into battle, barring poverty.

I'd also imagine that the amount of force required to penetrate plate at a not-weak point would do bad things to the wooden shaft of the spear, causing it to vibrate and split.

[FountainGuard]

A spear isn't getting through plate unless there's already an existing gap, at which point any weapon will do damage. Plate armor is rounded so that points will glance off to the side. For a spear to penetrate a piece of metal it would have to pretty much be guided by a dent in the metal to a single point where it won't slide around (which is why fantasy boobplates for women are terrible; the cleavage would guide the point straight to the middle of the chest). This would be an obvious flaw in the armor and I doubt someone would wear plate armor with a dent in it into battle, barring poverty.

I'd also imagine that the amount of force required to penetrate plate at a not-weak point would do bad things to the wooden shaft of the spear, causing it to vibrate and split.

I did something similar with my spear, and it got through the metal plate, only about an inch in though.I do see your point though.

[Deceneus]

Thrusting was effective against armor because combat armor wasn't thick enough to entirely resist thrusting. The Estoc, for example, was a bladeless sword that was designed only for thrusting against mail and plate armor (so it is essentially a one-handed spear). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estoc)

However, in the spear vs. sword debate, the spear would be more effective if the two-handed grip is used to convey more power in the thrust than the sword. This is why two handed swords were great as thrusting weapons, since they can be gripped with two hands for better power.

Just wanted to clarify that the Estoc and similar weapons were used to attack the joints of armor. People weren't trying to pierce the breast plate of plate armor with them.

And neither a spear or traditional slashing sword would be used against "tin can" armor. All you need to follow is the evolution of polearms to understand that. As armor improved people started putting axe blades like Voulges, Glaives and Guisarmes on the ends of their spears. This was because of the increased power of swinging over thrusting from the spear.

As armor improved, people added spikes to the other side of their axe blade to concentrate the force of the swing when trying to puncture heavier armor.

As armor improved even more, the axe was generally replaced with a hammer.

So by the time of full plate you are three technologies of polearms past the simple spear. And by that time elite warriors were not using spears or slashing swords on the battlefield. They were using pollaxes, hammers, or mace type weapons.

[ammo1369]

I reckon the most useful weapon is a halberd. Anyone played as the turks in mtw2? Janissary Infantry? THEY ARE CLASSS The charge is good (if you know how to use it), but the most effecting method of killing is that the infantry is able to fight on the outside. No other infantry with swords can get any close to those halberds. Unlike other classes of infantry of the same type Janissaries are well trained, have a good defensive skill and offensive skill.

[CrazyShadowDami]

its the shockwawe of the strike from a mace that damages. it internally messes you up. breaks your bones and stuff. very big "ouch".

[Adamat]

I have to agree with shikaka here. Medieval armies usually were a bulk of peasants with pitchforks wearing coats or thin leather. Only the leaders were armored. Though 95% is a bit too optimistic, i'd say about 80% was badly armored.

[Highlander of Scotland]

I have to agree with shikaka here. Medieval armies usually were a bulk of peasants with pitchforks wearing coats or thin leather. Only the leaders were armored. Though 95% is a bit too optimistic, i'd say about 80% was badly armored.

depends what time period. In the early period yes however by the later middle ages most armies were knights and proffesional soldiers both wore heavy armour . Certainly by the battle of Agincourt where the knights main weapon was the pole axe due to the armour.

[Sar1n]

Spear and sword aren't great weapons against armor. Any thrusting weapon is limited in power, and when swung, they don't have enough weight and bad weight distribution to cause damage against armor. Maces deliver blunt trauma, that transmits well through metal plates, but padding under it will distribute the force. Axes are heavy with most of the weight in head making them powerful, but slower swinging weapon, with large examples capable of penetrating heavy plate armor. Halberd is essentially a long spear with axe head under the spearhead, making it possible to swing downward with enough force to cleave through armored enemy.

So yeah, the AP attribute is usually assigned to right melee weapons in M2TW, although such weapons usually require longer time to attack.