Problems during my High elves game

[luraz]

Hi,

Ok, I started with the high elves on medium/medium. Even though the game recommends very hard/vary hard, medium seems already very hard for the High Elves. My game with the high elves went very good, as I started with conquering/destroying the OOTMM and Orcs from Gundam. OOTMM is dead en Orcs from Gundam have 1 city left in the North. Currently I have a huge empire with the high elves and was winning my third war against Isengard, but now I face some problems, as I am already in turn 240 and much as changed in the middle earth. Therefore, these are my problems:
(1) Rohan is destroyed.
(2) Gondor has only 2 cities left and thus can be considered as useless.
(3) I do not know what the dwarfs, silvian elves and Eriador are doing, but they ar not really attacking any base. The only thing they do is defending their borders, even if they have no enemies on their borders(Eriador), as I have conquered the North.
(4) High elves are only able to recruit the elder units once every 13-14 turns, which makes it impossible to defend my boarders against the factions of Mordor, Isengard and Harad.
(5) When conquering a city, the culture of elves is increasing by 2-3% every turn and this is really really low. It seems like the culture of Mordor is increasing a lot faster through the middle earth than the elves. Is this true?

Problem
Thus my problem is I am standing alone versus Mordor, Harad and Isengard, but the culture, very low unit recruitment and income makes it impossible for me to get to Mordor with the ring, as they send stack after stack to my borders. So maybe, I should not go after all the orcs in the North and Misty mountains? If this is true, this actually means that Gondor and Rohan cannot survive until turn 100-150 and every game I should seek to aid them as much as possible, because if I do not, the game is over. My high elven empire is big as 3 factions together, but the slow recruitment and culture makes it impossible for high elves to send huge armies to the lands of Gondor and Rohan. SO what information am I missing here? And how can I still win the game, when Gondor and Rohan are both gone, my allies are very passive and I face Mordor, Harad and Isengard alone, while I am not able to recruit units fast(once in 14 turns)?

[Gazi Husrev-Beg]

I havent playe vanilla TaTW for awhile. Mos or Baron semedi compilations. Make one army and start liberating Gondor cities and giving it to them. If you play with mos or baron semedi mod, you can resurrect deadfactions by conquering their capitals. But if you dont have that, than conquerng and giving cities to your allies is a must and for a city, you get alliance and military access. Try starting over with Mos submod, playing with HE and resurrecting an old kingdom feels epic, mostly rp reasons, but fun

[luraz]

WoW, those sub mods really look good. So which one do you recommend? MOS or baron Samedi? I cant see the difference right away as they both have 60 mods in it,lol. I actually tried to resurrect the ancient elven kingdom by conquering all northern lands of the orcs. Even though I could raise quite some armies(4 stacks) it is far to less compared to the armies of Mordor, Harad and Isengard. But if I had MOS or Baron remedi's sub mod, I probably did not have this problem now.

Its a shame, as it was a good game in turn 240, but imbalanced playing as the high elves. Especially now, when Rohan is destroyed and Gondor has 2 cities left. I conquer a lot of cities and give them to gondor or Rohan, but its useless as all those cities already have 95%-100 melkor culture. So even when I keep them or give them away it takes another 50 turns to actually use those cities, which is too late IMO...

[FC Groningen]

Hello, I've done a step by step guide for the High Elves for vh/vh in the AAR section. (/shameless self promotion)

The thing is, like in most campaigns, that you have to make the most of your turns before the AI factions grow strong, which is usually around turn 60/80 in which they start to spam stacks at you. If you would start over, I would recommend this:
- Change the capital to Mithlond, despite the initial cost. You'll get it back very soon!
- Start by developing your lands around Mithlond so your economy can support more units.
- Make the most of the free upkeep slots in all settlements, especially Imladris as it will be tested quite some times.
- Especially around Mithlond, build watch towers all over the place to see all incoming armies. That way you can anticipate them very quickly.
- Be very agressive against any enemy armies that cross your lands. Use Elrond and possibly some additional generals that spawn in Imladris. The mounted bodyguard units are exceptional against most stuff the Orc factions send against you. Attack these stacks before they join together and become large armies.
- After that, keep the initiative in the wars. First 20 turns, try to grab as many rebel settlements as you can around Mithlond without spawning any additional or as little additional troops as possible to save money which you can invest in your economy instead. After, try to wipe out Gundabad first! The main settlement of Gundabad is Carn Dum; the moment you have it, all they can send against you is junk.
- Try to avoid garrison scripts by attacking armies next to settlement walls.
- After, move south and sweep across the Misty Mountains. After, the game should be easy and you can completely focus on Isengard and then enemies at will.

edit:

For late game issues against Harad, Mordor and Rhun:

-Harad is usually the faction that spams the most stacks and the ones that are relatively the hardest to deal with in my opinion. I would recommend to go for Harad first afterwards; Try to have a landing party the moment you have taken care of things north and start with Umbar first! Only 2 settlements there that have a garrison script are Umbar and Gobel Ancalimon.
- If you fight cavalry heavy stacks, try to fight in settlements to negate the full effects.
- Rhun has a balanced roster, but compared to the high elves, inferior units. Make the most of your missle superiority and note that Rhun's best cavalry is slow. Rhun also lacks spearmen, until late game and once they do, note that their pikemen are usually too slow in battle to be efficient.
-Mordor's biggest threat are troll units, unless you face a nazgul maybe. Against both, a lot of missles help, especially if you can make them stand still for a while. Smiths of Eregion would be very decent against trolls if you unlocked them by then, or if nothing else helps, balista's.

[luraz]

OK, but this means my current game is over as I am already at turn 240. I kept my capital at Imlradis and worked quite well destroying both factions of orcs in the North. I am able to command 4 stacks of armies with the high elves with all income. Yet, the problem is that it is already turn 250 and I focused mainly on the North. Because of this, Gondor en ROhan got destroyed. I have a major empire, but I cant make my best units, because of restrictions to elves on their best units(eldars). I think in vanilla TATW, you have to go south right away to aid Gondor and Rohan, because otherwise they will be destroyed. Usually when you have a major empire, you could build major armies to fight against 3 factions at once, but as Elves are restricted this is impossible now even when I have 25 settlements. But you right mate. After 50 turns as high elves you should already move southwards for expansion and not towards the north. Too bad though, because my campaing was going very well and was enjoying it

[Gazi Husrev-Beg]

Follow FC Groningen instructions, it sounds very good. I have to agree that you should use your early turns to spread as much as possible. I usually send my first elite units in cities for free upkeep. So later on I can make an army just of elites. One stack has been enough to intercept whatever they throw at me without many casualties. I play on H/H as Silvans, havent tried HE.

As for submods, I would recommend MOS latest version. I used to play with Baron Samedi compilation, but that one is not compatible with lates TaTW version and Baron has not been active for some time. In my game I dont play with garrison script. Also the furthest i have advanced in game was until turn 80, becouse i have been experimentng with some other mods , like extanded map and I had few problems becouse of that so i had to restart. But MOS on vanilla TaTW is awsome. Also check other submods that are compatible, what you feel fits your gameplay for maximum experience

Oh have one or two ballistas, I noticed that whn you play as elf they are very accurate and deadly. Not sure if this is for all units or just elves as elves usually have better range and accuracy. They are good against large elite/epic units. My first encounter with Mumakil and no elite units. Balista flaming on hit general and rest of mumakil went havoc through their own ranks. 800 vs 3000, did it twice like that I thhought I was going to be steamrolled, but one lucky shot gave me just enough figting chance. So get some ballistas early on and increase them in experience. They prove good against large units, trolls as well. Oh and if you play as elven faction, not sure about HE, once you reforge old Kingdom you can recruit Ents. Did not yet got those, but remebering my campain as Isengard, they pack a punch!

[FC Groningen]

OK, but this means my current game is over as I am already at turn 240. I kept my capital at Imlradis and worked quite well destroying both factions of orcs in the North. I am able to command 4 stacks of armies with the high elves with all income. Yet, the problem is that it is already turn 250 and I focused mainly on the North. Because of this, Gondor en ROhan got destroyed. I have a major empire, but I cant make my best units, because of restrictions to elves on their best units(eldars). I think in vanilla TATW, you have to go south right away to aid Gondor and Rohan, because otherwise they will be destroyed. Usually when you have a major empire, you could build major armies to fight against 3 factions at once, but as Elves are restricted this is impossible now even when I have 25 settlements. But you right mate. After 50 turns as high elves you should already move southwards for expansion and not towards the north. Too bad though, because my campaing was going very well and was enjoying it

You can still try, but progress will be slow probably as there's simply too many armies running around you can never match as a player. Best advice I can give you if you choose to continue is to pick a place to invade with little AI activity, send a few spies along to open gates and then start capturing settlement and move on like a plague. It will draw armies, but the AI is programmed in such a way that once you "cut them off" by taking bordering provinces, the army will retreat and once back in safe territory, will set up a new plan. It's possible this way to rush through many provinces before the AI will actually start to attack you in earnest. Another possible way is to call for a ceasefire the moment you have captured a few settlement. The ceasefire won't hold long, but it will give you time to regroup. You can also give settlements to allies to make sure the enemy will have to fight several factions at the same time which it handles poorly.

[luraz]

You can still try, but progress will be slow probably as there's simply too many armies running around you can never match as a player. Best advice I can give you if you choose to continue is to pick a place to invade with little AI activity, send a few spies along to open gates and then start capturing settlement and move on like a plague. It will draw armies, but the AI is programmed in such a way that once you "cut them off" by taking bordering provinces, the army will retreat and once back in safe territory, will set up a new plan. It's possible this way to rush through many provinces before the AI will actually start to attack you in earnest. Another possible way is to call for a ceasefire the moment you have captured a few settlement. The ceasefire won't hold long, but it will give you time to regroup. You can also give settlements to allies to make sure the enemy will have to fight several factions at the same time which it handles poorly.

I could try yeah, but that game would take an eternity I think. For:
(1) I have already given 15 settlements away to Eriador, Silver Elves, Rohan and Gondor. Yet, every time I pass by with one of my armies, my allies lost the settlement again and again...
(2) The culture of Mordor is increasing rapidly which is insane. I mean, Like 95% of all settlements in Rohan and Gondor have like 70-100% Melkor followers. So when I take it over it takes a loooong time to convert them( 2-3% every turn) to be capable of creating units in these lands. In the mean time I have 3 stacks of Nazguls with full armies attacking my settlements. Its a frontline war, but Nazguls are experienced commanders and therefore I am not able of destroying their armies totally. When I win, I win with 50-60% casualties on my side.
(3) Once I have defended an attack, regrouping is the priority. But the culturals demands of elves makes recruitment in short term really really really difficult.
(4) Tried to attack with 4 stacks, 2 through Rohan and 2 through Gondor, but these factions are really destroyed lol. And thus I formed a frontline with 4 stacks versus 10 stacks of Mordor, Harad and Isengard.
(5) Tried ceasefire and they said, that I am mad...
(6) The spy trick could work and probably will work, but I find that not fun. I see it more as cheating, because you use the weakness of a AI system

Yeah, in turn 250 I predicted that this campaign of mine will take an enormous amount of time and even then, the chance of victory stays small, as the high elves are weak in the long term, because of the mechanism(The main problem in my game is culture and unit recruitment of high elves). In particular if the major powers of Gondor and Rohan are destroyed. Thats why I made this thread to see if I could still win in some way. Its like Denethor said:"Abandon your posts"!

[FC Groningen]

I could try yeah, but that game would take an eternity I think. For:
(1) I have already given 15 settlements away to Eriador, Silver Elves, Rohan and Gondor. Yet, every time I pass by with one of my armies, my allies lost the settlement again and again...
(2) The culture of Mordor is increasing rapidly which is insane. I mean, Like 95% of all settlements in Rohan and Gondor have like 70-100% Melkor followers. So when I take it over it takes a loooong time to convert them( 2-3% every turn) to be capable of creating units in these lands. In the mean time I have 3 stacks of Nazguls with full armies attacking my settlements. Its a frontline war, but Nazguls are experienced commanders and therefore I am not able of destroying their armies totally. When I win, I win with 50-60% casualties on my side.
(3) Once I have defended an attack, regrouping is the priority. But the culturals demands of elves makes recruitment in short term really really really difficult.
(4) Tried to attack with 4 stacks, 2 through Rohan and 2 through Gondor, but these factions are really destroyed lol. And thus I formed a frontline with 4 stacks versus 10 stacks of Mordor, Harad and Isengard.
(5) Tried ceasefire and they said, that I am mad...
(6) The spy trick could work and probably will work, but I find that not fun. I see it more as cheating, because you use the weakness of a AI system

Yeah, in turn 250 I predicted that this campaign of mine will take an enormous amount of time and even then, the chance of victory stays small, as the high elves are weak in the long term, because of the mechanism(The main problem in my game is culture and unit recruitment of high elves). In particular if the major powers of Gondor and Rohan are destroyed. Thats why I made this thread to see if I could still win in some way. Its like Denethor said:"Abandon your posts"!

You could win, but as you already concluded, it takes taking advantage of the AI, which we all do by the way to a lesser or greater extend. There is a reason the AI receives that many buffs. I will continue my high elven play through in the AAR section soon again (bit busy the coming 2 days); maybe it could help you.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=561947

(Harad, Isengard, Gundabad and the OotMM gone after about 103 turns)

[muller227]

Though it is expensive at first I always go after that island just off the coast of Gondor and start hammering at Harad as early as possible, non-lore but it really helps Gondor expand its economy early as you help delay the stacks of Harad. Take their coastal cities, Umbar has garrison script so be careful there.

I prefer MOS myself but others like different submods.

[luraz]

The sad thing IMO is that you cant make the high elves as strong as the second age(or at least partly) because even if you succeed in your Nortbern expansion,you will still fail in the end when Gondor en Rohan het destroyed. Well,gonna download MOS mod and start my high elven game again I think in Vanilla the high elves are ment as an additional force next to the main powers of Rohan en Gondor. So hou cant let those factions die. Makes sense from lore perspective,but less fun for major elven armies. Hehehe.

[muller227]

The sad thing IMO is that you cant make the high elves as strong as the second age(or at least partly) because even if you succeed in your Nortbern expansion,you will still fail in the end when Gondor en Rohan het destroyed. Well,gonna download MOS mod and start my high elven game again I think in Vanilla the high elves are ment as an additional force next to the main powers of Rohan en Gondor. So hou cant let those factions die. Makes sense from lore perspective,but less fun for major elven armies. Hehehe.

Actually you can in MOS, their troops are so good that 3rd tier can truly change things with a half stack if you don't screw up. Mithlonders and Noldor Guardians are amazing, I like Baliista as well I use them late game as counter battery.

[luraz]

Actually you can in MOS, their troops are so good that 3rd tier can truly change things with a half stack if you don't screw up. Mithlonders and Noldor Guardians are amazing, I like Baliista as well I use them late game as counter battery.

Doing that now New campaign, High Elves in MOS. Time for the Elves to return as Mankind is weak

[GiddeeUpp]

Definitely recommend MOS. Its great. Yeah high elves i find a boring game, but after playing as both Gondor and Mordor i want to play in a different area :p

[GiddeeUpp]

Ive had a game or two where Gondor is able to defend itself quite well. Though not to date in MOS since ive only truly played Gondor and Mordor in MOS so far. If they arent doing well, then give them a little bit of support and they should be able to perform adequately at the least.

[Eönwë]

Decline the Elves are leaving script!!!

The game will offer you several scripts which you can accept or decline, you should decline the one mentioned above because it really makes it (too) hard playing as the High Elves

[luraz]

Decline the Elves are leaving script!!!

The game will offer you several scripts which you can accept or decline, you should decline the one mentioned above because it really makes it (too) hard playing as the High Elves

I did not see that script mate, nor have I seen it during my games. I was playing vanilla and probably that is why I havent seen it?

[Dragonchampion]

The ELves are leaving is a vanilla Third Age feature. It only occurs when you use the Palantir.

[luraz]

The ELves are leaving is a vanilla Third Age feature. It only occurs when you use the Palantir.

Ok, that explains why I never received a message about elfs leaving the earth, because I never used the Palantir,heheh. So I guess I never had the problem of elves leaving the middle earth. Yet, the campaign is impossible if you let Gondor and Rohan die.

[Makus]

if i were you id screw with the game a bit. basically buff up your borders and save up for a decent assault force, then sail them down to gondor, retake some of the settlements (basically anything tradiationally gondorian on the coast that theyve lost) and give them to gondor via diplomacy and swing that army through isengard wreaking havoc en-route. Combined with some financial support too gondor or rohan you can restore balance to the compaign