U.S. Soldiers took turns raping Iraqi

[Miraj]

Remember, for every atrocity reported there are probably dozens that are not.


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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5253160.stm

Troops 'took turns' to rape Iraqi

A US military hearing has examined testimony of how three soldiers took it in turns to try to rape an Iraqi girl aged 14 in Mahmudiya in March.

The girl and three family members were allegedly killed by four US soldiers.

Graphic details of the attack at the family's home came in a sworn statement by one of the accused, James P Barker.

The preliminary hearing will decide whether to court-martial the four. The case is one of a series of atrocities blamed on US forces in Iraq.

Along with Sergeant Paul Cortez, Private Jesse Spielman, and Private Bryan Howard, Specialist Barker is charged with rape and murder.

The four are alleged to have helped a former private - Steven Green, who has since left the army - plan, carry out and cover up the attack. Mr Green has pleaded not guilty in a federal court and will be tried separately in the US.

A fifth soldier is alleged to have lied to cover up for his colleagues.

'Whisky and golf'

Investigator Benjamin Bierce interviewed Mr Barker, 23, on 30 June and took down his statement, he told the hearing at a US military base in Baghdad.

On the day of the attack the soldiers had been drinking Iraqi whisky mixed with an energy drink and practising golf strokes at a checkpoint south of Baghdad, Mr Barker's statement said.

One of the soldiers, Steven Green, said he "wanted to go to a house and kill some Iraqis," it alleged.

The four eventually went to a house about 200 metres (yards) away and put the parents and their five-year old daughter in the bedroom, but kept the older girl in the living room.

According to Mr Barker's statement, he and Mr Cortez took it in turns to rape or attempt to rape her.

Mr Barker heard shots from the bedroom, and Steven Green emerged with an AK-47 in his hand saying "They're all dead. I just killed them."

According to the testimony, Mr Green then also raped the girl and shot her dead.

Her body was doused in kerosene and set alight.

The first day of the hearing on Sunday saw an Iraqi army medic describe how he found the bodies of the four Iraqis.

He told prosecutors he was ill for weeks after witnessing the crime scene.

Proceedings are expected to continue for several days.

[Shaun]

Bah, this is sick, there is no denying that.

Now we shall wait for one of our Rebublican members to try and justify this.

[DefenderofFreedom]

Bah, this is sick, there is no denying that.

Now we shall wait for one of our Rebublican members to try and justify this.

I find this comment extremely offensive. There is no justifying rape, and the soldiers who did this should be punished to the full extent of the law.

But I am also sick of this whole "A few soldiers are idiots, therefore they all are." Anyone who thinks this is full of themselves.

[Ahiga]

But I am also sick of this whole "A few muslims are idiots, therefore they all are." Anyone who thinks this is full of themselves.

Fixed. Bear in mind I do not recall any posts of yours condemning them as a whole as some have the soldiers, so this is not a judgement upon you, but simply taking your post to assert another point that seems to be overlooked by some of TWC. Bad apples in the barrel don't constitute a bad season. Not for soldiers or for Muslims.

I hope we execute these fellows if they are found guilty.

[Garbarsardar]

I find this comment extremely offensive. There is no justifying rape, and the soldiers who did this should be punished to the full extent of the law.

But I am also sick of this whole "A few soldiers are idiots, therefore they all are." Anyone who thinks this is full of themselves.

Both sides in this conflict use the "bad apple" theory. One could even say that the field is level on that count. There are "renegade" soldiers and "renegade" muslims that both give to their respective sides a bad name.

Not quite.

The problem is that the occurence of "bad apples" in a highly controlled environment such as the US army, amongst 130.000 troops is significantly higher then the occurence of "bad apples" amongst 1.300.000.000 Muslims.

If statistics could be a guide to make us search for institutionalised patterns of violence then the US army is in a rather unfavorable light in relation to the perceived enemy.

[danzig]

Both sides in this conflict use the "bad apple" theory. One could even say that the field is level on that count. There are "renegade" soldiers and "renegade" muslims that both give to their respective sides a bad name.

Not quite.

The problem is that the occurence of "bad apples" in a highly controlled environment such as the US army, amongst 130.000 troops is significantly higher then the occurence of "bad apples" amongst 1.300.000.000 Muslims.

If statistics could be a guide to make us search for institutionalised patterns of violence then the US army is in a rather unfavorable light in relation to the perceived enemy.

Up to 'not quite' Id agree with you but this just reenforces the fact you can make stats tell any story you want. Why compare a segment of the US military to the entire "muslim world"? Could we not come to a different conclusion of where the institutionalized patterns of violence lies if we make a more even comparison of say the Christian "world" compared to the "Muslim" world in this point in time instead? After all 1.3billion muslims dont live in Iraq.

[Garbarsardar]

Up to 'not quite' Id agree with you but this just reenforces the fact you can make stats tell any story you want. Why compare a segment of the US military to the entire "muslim world"? Could we not come to a different conclusion of where the institutionalized patterns of violence lies if we make a more even comparison of say the Christian "world" compared to the "Muslim" world in this point in time instead? After all 1.3billion muslims dont live in Iraq.

Of course you would be right if that was the case. But the usual descriptions of the conflict and especially in this thread are between:

A. The behavior of US army in Iraq
B. Muslim terrorists

This has to be my pool. Even if we consider rotation and influx of new soldiers and double the number, or even if we includ the total of US forces (499.000+700.000 reservists and NG) still it will not make much of a difference. Of course, as you say 1.300.000.000 muslims do not live in Iraq; however the identification of Islam as a violent religion is a common occurence in this forum. So why should we count only the Iraqi muslims.

Finally, since most Christian leaders have condemned the war and a majority of people in christian countries now distance themselves from it, including "christians" in the equation would be unsupportable.

[Aristophanes]

Both sides in this conflict use the "bad apple" theory. One could even say that the field is level on that count. There are "renegade" soldiers and "renegade" muslims that both give to their respective sides a bad name.

Not quite.

The problem is that the occurence of "bad apples" in a highly controlled environment such as the US army, amongst 130.000 troops is significantly higher then the occurence of "bad apples" amongst 1.300.000.000 Muslims.

And which figures do use to support this? Now, I can understand, if you had seen published and reliable murder statistics covering the world's 1.3 billion muslims, that you could make useful comparisons, but, as I find it highly doubtful that you've slogged through such investigatory work, I think such conjecture can only be unproductive and is more likely to expose your own bias than any particular desire to reach a factual conclusion.

Any person who has knowledge of soldiers and military life knows that the ideal of a 'controlled environment' or even troops under reliable supervision is a veneer. The truth about most soldiers is that they are violent, headstrong, and volatile. Whether they are 'patriotic' is often incidental: they like to fight, and see violence as their calling. They are immature as only men surrounded by men can be, and the idea that they would be less murderous than the general population is laughable. Yes, they may be less likely to kill each other, depending on whether the 'others' are from a rival unit or not, but some of them are stone cold killers. If they see an opportunity, they'll take it. What level of good judgement do you expect of the grunts whose job it is to shoot and be shot at? There are safer jobs out there, usually occupied by the meek, and those of more even disposition and judgement.
Yes, this was a failure of discipline: it was an American failure, but your contention that the violence done by these men to innocent people is disproportionate to that done by civilians upon civilians in that region is preposterous.

If statistics could be a guide to make us search for institutionalised patterns of violence then the US army is in a rather unfavorable light in relation to the perceived enemy.

You wouldn't have it any other way, now would you? Please refrain from this disingenuous hyperbole. To quote Jennifer Senior of the NYT Editorial Board,

...The problem is that these developments have also made the president’s critics more susceptible to rhetorical excess, and Bush, like his predecessor, already has an impressive gift for bringing out the yawping worst in those who disagree with him. Otherwise reasonable people go slightly berserk on the subject of his motives; on the subject of his morality, the hinged fall off their door frames and even the stable become unglued. This is both an aesthetic problem and a substantive one. Substantively, it means gerrymandering evidence so that inconvenient facts don’t make it onto the map. And aesthetically, it means speaking in a compromising and not wholly credible tone.

[Carach]

Now we shall wait for one of our Rebublican members to try and justify this.

suprised you didnt say nazi instead of republican (that is your view afterall), This thread isnt about republican vs democrat Shaun, its about morality. Do not drag american politics into something that has nothing to do with it.

Anyway the bit i didnt quote i agree with - it is disgusting, hopefully the criminals (and that is all they are), will be dealt with appropriately.

Its a shame that people like this drag the other's names through the mud (so to speak), undermining everything we have tried doing and allowing the media to blow everything out of proportion once again, causing more outrage, more opposition.

[Rutilius Rufus]

Yeah, thats actually one of the reasons I posted this. I just wanted to see how low they can go. I'm expecting something along the lines of "well the 14 year old girl must have been hiding insurgents under her skirt...".

I'm not trying to defend what those men did, I think the ones behind it should all be hanged but, what do you mean by they. Lets not lump the entire American force in this. Everyone over there is not a monster waiting to kill the next Iraqi they see.

So what? Will that bring back the two kids and their parents? I could care less what happens to the goons and mercenaries you like calling your "army". All I know is that people are suffering because of them and have suffered before because of them.

This is a isolated event among drunken fools, not the goal of all Americans, British, and others over there.

How many times have you heard of American forces leaving bombs that look like toys for children to pickup and detonate ala Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. Or mindlessly gunning down civilians for a peacefull demonstration i.e. Tienaman(sp?) Square.

[Miraj]

I don't see why I shouldn't lump the entire American force as one. Its not like this happened in a vacuum. There's a definite culture and attitude that motivates these Americans to treat people of other races and nations as target practice "crispy critter". I used to live in Kuwait and had US soldiers living in the same housing complex as me. I know their attitude towards Middle Easterners, or anyone brown for that matter, very well. Please don't tell me this a just "a few bad apples". No they are product of the racist and violent culture of Christian America.

And I don't just have this opinion on America. I totally agree when people say that Sept 11th and terrorism has a lot to do with Islam and indoctrination and closed-mindedness of Muslim socieites. So I'm not merely an anti-American who blames America for everthing.

And what is up with this BS of rape and what not being inevitable in war. If you have the right to say that then why can't Al Qaeda say that too? I'm sure you'd like it if raped your mom and sister in front of you and killed you and them afterwards claimed its "only inevitable", ya know crap happens in life. It's easy to say "it's inevitable" when its some foreigners your don't give :wub: about dies. So the next time Americans dies in another terrorist atrocity i'll just say its "inevitable". Kay?

[Justinian]

No they are product of the racist and violent culture of Christian America.

Which is, of course, why America encourages soldiers to rape innocent civilians and does not punish them for it at all. Ever.

Considering how few cases like this are reported in a world where everyone is scrambling to find something bad about America, I consider that a sign that American soldiers are not being as psycho in Iraq as people suggest.

Hey man, I don't care if you lived in Kuwait where you came into contact with the entire U.S. Armed Forces (which is how you are able to give a 100% factual opinion on every single American soldier). I live in America. Such things are not tolerated. There is no "racist and violent culture", no more then in the rest of the world. Come live in America and then tell us all 350 million of us are psychotic murderous racist bastards.

[Last Roman]

I don't see why I shouldn't lump the entire American force as one.

So then why shouldn't I lump all Muslims as one? All Europeans, all conservatives, all liberals, all Christians as one?

[Miraj]

So then why shouldn't I lump all Muslims as one? All Europeans, all conservatives, all liberals, all Christians as one?

Because civilians populations follow different distribution of opinions and are not under a single command structure. Soldiers are.

[harm]

These soldiers should get off the hook. It is war time, things like this happen. They were probably terrorists anyways.

[kingfisher]

These soldiers should get off the hook. It is war time, things like this happen. They were probably terrorists anyways.

No. They committed a serious crime and make us look horrible. They deserve what they get and then some.

War can make people do and think seriously messed up things, but at the end of the day you still have to represent your country and your people. So there is really no excuse.

SilverGuard- I was a college student in the late 90's before I entered the USMC. Some of the best and smartest people I have known were Soldiers and Marines. Ive seen young men charge MG positions by themselves. Ive heard of young men throwing themselves on frags to save others. Then at night talk philosohpy.

You cant have any idea what it is like to lose your friends and watch the Iraqis harbor the insurgency. Its life changing. It pushes you to the very edge. Unfortunately these guys went over. It has nothing to do with their IQ.

[Gogoas]

well its good to see there getting whats coming for them and get severely discipline for the crime.

[communist]

well, this isnt something new. there were rape cases during the initial invasion, and rape and pillage is apart of every war. theres bad apples in every army, but its what the officers do to prevent and deal with these acts that matters.

[communist]

well, this isnt something new. there were rape cases during the initial invasion, and rape and pillage is apart of every war. theres bad apples in every army, but its what the officers do to prevent and deal with these acts that matters.

i would like to add that, its a culture where we are dealing with people who will cut your arm off by law if your caught stealing, and their woman can face death if they show their skin in public(ok, thats not exactly true, but u get the point). and thats not wrong, coz its their tridition and culture, and unless they as a majority decides not to do that, you cant tell people how to live their lives. and with that background aside, if the soldiers are found guilty, i am with the fact that give them up to the arabs. you play, you pay. and do keep in mind that, if you take a vacation to a destination like china, where their police have every right to bash your skull in for certain acts, its perfectly legal, infact, u'll be the one whos doing illegal things. you follow other people's rules when ur at their house. rape is also considered a very sinful act in these socieities, and for many, its worse than death. i dont give a **** if hes the son of god, but if hes guilty, he deserves the rightful punishment.

[danzig]

Remember, for every atrocity reported there are probably dozens that are not.

Opinion nothing more.

Yeah, thats actually one of the reasons I posted this. I just wanted to see how low they can go. I'm expecting something along the lines of "well the 14 year old girl must have been hiding insurgents under her skirt...".

I guess posting it to show how they arent getting away with it and being charged and facing long prison terms wasnt good enough? Instead you did it to bait? Innocent until proven guilty, if guilty they should rot in a prison cell for rest of their lives, the key point here is they are facing justice for it.

Please don't tell me this a just "a few bad apples". No they are product of the racist and violent culture of Christian America.

[Troll Removed]