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Thread: FALL OF ROME: IN HOC SIGNO VINCES (early 4th century Late Roman mod)

  1. #161
    Razor's Avatar Licenced to insult
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    Default Re: FALL OF ROME: IN HOC SIGNO VINCES (early 4th century Late Roman mod)

    Interesting subject indeed.

    From what I've understood - after a crash course that is - the maniple wasn't used anymore as such. Pompeius Magnus (from the BI mod Ages of Darkness here on TWC) identifies the manipulus as the contibernium of older times. I also remember reading that Vegetius mentions that each centuria had its own standard rather than each maniple having two standards.
    Anyway, I would think that for the 4th century the old signum standards were still in use both by the old legions and the "new legions".

    One thing though. Would the signum standards be used for auxilia (both frontier and palatina) units, and cavalry units? At the moment I do because - despite people saying that the new auxilia (palatina) were different from the old auxilia (which I don't totally get; basically just heavy reliance on auxilia units with higher prestige for them if you'd ask me, right?) - I'm still following the old imperial structure, giving all of them a signum standard, a vexillum standard and a draco standard.

    I dropped the imago standard and the eagle standard, because there was no more room. Besides, the imago seemed to have dropped out of use anyway around/after the time of Constantine and the eagle standards probably weren't present anymore because armies mainly consisted of detachments of old full legions. It may not be totally 100% accurate but it does give me a good argument for not adding those and giving priority to the signum, the vexillum and the draco standard. Eagles will still be present on certain signum and vexillum standards if you haven't noticed it.

  2. #162
    SeniorBatavianHorse's Avatar Tribunus Vacans
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    Default Re: FALL OF ROME: IN HOC SIGNO VINCES (early 4th century Late Roman mod)

    This may deserve a thread all its own!

    PM's research is detailed and fascinating. There are a couple of caveat's though. The 'manipulus' that Vegetius describes is often understood as his clumsy attempt at marrying the technical term back to its etymological origins. The term 'maniple' remains a constant in Late Roman Latin writings as evinced by Ammianus for example but is now to be seen as a rhetorical term rather than a military one. PM states I believe that we have no knowledge of what the double century unit was now termed other than the generic numerus. Vegetius is either wrong about the manipulus or is instead inaccurately echoing perhaps Late Roman slang or colloquial use here.

    The auxilia palatinae were very different from the auxilia of the Empire.These latter were the old auxilia of native troops organised now as standard units under the Empire and ordered as part of the frontier or limitanei troops - at least from the late 4th century onwards. With the re-organsiation of the army under Severus the pay and status distinction between the old auxilia and the old legions vanished anyway. The new auxilia palatinae raised, as some have argued by Constantine, were crack regiments of a thousand or so troops of native barbarians under the new ranking and grading system. There is a tendency to discuss them as being different to the legions (new and old) in terms of their flexibility and elan. These auxilia fought in the presence of the Augustus.

    The eagle remained a key standard - Ammianus mentions eagles several times. Old pagan symbols were easily incorporated into christian iconography - indeed, many pulpits today are the outspread wings of a golden eagle, for example. The aquilifer survived well into the period of Mauricius and his Strategikon where it mentions the officer of the 'eagle-bearer' or 'ornithoboros' (literally: bird-bearer') who did not now hold a standard but was instead a staff officer or aide-de-camp. This officer attests to the survival of the memory or idea of the aquilifer and shows how conservative the Roman Army was. I would suggest to keep the eagle in if at all possible.

    I would tentatively suggest that a century would have the signum, the cohort or numerus or anything larger than a century should deploy a vexillum or draco while the legion itself should deploy the aquila. cavalry vexillations should deploy the draco. The general figure or emperor should deploy the labarum.

    I know little about modding though and always bow to those who have to mediate historical accuracy with game mechanics and limitations!

  3. #163
    Razor's Avatar Licenced to insult
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    Default Re: FALL OF ROME: IN HOC SIGNO VINCES (early 4th century Late Roman mod)

    Quote Originally Posted by SeniorBatavianHorse View Post
    This may deserve a thread all its own!

    PM's research is detailed and fascinating. There are a couple of caveat's though. The 'manipulus' that Vegetius describes is often understood as his clumsy attempt at marrying the technical term back to its etymological origins. The term 'maniple' remains a constant in Late Roman Latin writings as evinced by Ammianus for example but is now to be seen as a rhetorical term rather than a military one. PM states I believe that we have no knowledge of what the double century unit was now termed other than the generic numerus. Vegetius is either wrong about the manipulus or is instead inaccurately echoing perhaps Late Roman slang or colloquial use here.

    The auxilia palatinae were very different from the auxilia of the Empire.These latter were the old auxilia of native troops organised now as standard units under the Empire and ordered as part of the frontier or limitanei troops - at least from the late 4th century onwards. With the re-organsiation of the army under Severus the pay and status distinction between the old auxilia and the old legions vanished anyway. The new auxilia palatinae raised, as some have argued by Constantine, were crack regiments of a thousand or so troops of native barbarians under the new ranking and grading system. There is a tendency to discuss them as being different to the legions (new and old) in terms of their flexibility and elan. These auxilia fought in the presence of the Augustus.

    The eagle remained a key standard - Ammianus mentions eagles several times. Old pagan symbols were easily incorporated into christian iconography - indeed, many pulpits today are the outspread wings of a golden eagle, for example. The aquilifer survived well into the period of Mauricius and his Strategikon where it mentions the officer of the 'eagle-bearer' or 'ornithoboros' (literally: bird-bearer') who did not now hold a standard but was instead a staff officer or aide-de-camp. This officer attests to the survival of the memory or idea of the aquilifer and shows how conservative the Roman Army was. I would suggest to keep the eagle in if at all possible.

    I would tentatively suggest that a century would have the signum, the cohort or numerus or anything larger than a century should deploy a vexillum or draco while the legion itself should deploy the aquila. cavalry vexillations should deploy the draco. The general figure or emperor should deploy the labarum.

    I know little about modding though and always bow to those who have to mediate historical accuracy with game mechanics and limitations!
    Haha indeed.

    About the auxilia, how would the new auxilia be that different from what the old auxilia used to be at the beginning of their existence? My basic thinking behind them would be: foreign troops in Roman service. Then there's the distinction one could make between those that were (or came to be) regarded as regular army units and those that were recruited ad hoc and disbanded after the campaign was over. Also Nicasie mentions in his book Twilight of Empire the new auxilia troops both among the comitatenses (as palatini) and the limitanei, but both as higher in prestige than legionary units.
    In my mod I intend to represent them as both regular units recruitable from Germanic settlement buildings that one can build within certain provinces and mercenary units for Roman factions only. I've done away with the name 'palatina' for units. The player could for himself decide whether he wants to use a unit be it a cohort, legio or auxilium as border defence or as field army and upgrade them with the finest armour or not (if finances allow it).
    So I'm a bit reserved about the new auxilia as elite per definition and different from the old auxilia. But that's also the result because I want the player to decide what they want to do with them and not explicitly follow history. It also prevent weird things like seeing the AI using a legio comitatnesis unit or auxilium palatinum unit to guard the frontier.

    About the eagle, how should they be represented in the game to make it have sense? PM has argued that they weren't used in the field, which is possible, more so because armies often didn't include whole old-style legions but merely detachments or new units/new legions. The whole point of the eagle was to symbolize the unity among the cohorts of the old legion. Of course a new legion could have introduced the eagle standard of its own, but it would have lost its original meaning and the number of eagle standards would have been quite numerous judging the amount of new legions compared to old legions. And for this mod it would be at the cost of either the signum, the vexillum or the draco (of which the signum and the vexillum also have a version with an eagle on top). So I don't think the loss of the eagle standard would be that big.

    The thing about (legionary) cavalry is that they were detachments (vexillationes) which means that they should also have the vexillum. The auxiliary cavalry would have a vexillum by default. And... cavalry units also had a signum... So they would then have the signum, the vexillum, and the draco.
    Adding the labarum could be tricky. It was only used by Constantine and his successors and not by his rivals. I could of course make it a standard for the Constantinian faction only but that would imply that the Constantinian faction is automatically inclined towards christianity and the others not. Or I could add the labarum as a separate standard like the Carroccio standard or the Great Cross in M2TW that boosts the morale of nearby friendly troops and make it available after an event ingame...

    Also, the mediation between historical accuracy and game mechanics works both ways. I can't do it 100% accurate, but that also puts me in a position that I don't have to know and get everything 100% accurate. Though I know just about enough to know when I'm completely going the wrong way.
    Last edited by Razor; July 10, 2013 at 12:49 PM.

  4. #164
    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: FALL OF ROME: IN HOC SIGNO VINCES (early 4th century Late Roman mod)

    Quote Originally Posted by Razor View Post
    Interesting subject indeed.

    From what I've understood - after a crash course that is - the maniple wasn't used anymore as such. Pompeius Magnus (from the BI mod Ages of Darkness here on TWC) identifies the manipulus as the contibernium of older times. I also remember reading that Vegetius mentions that each centuria had its own standard rather than each maniple having two standards.
    Anyway, I would think that for the 4th century the old signum standards were still in use both by the old legions and the "new legions".
    Well approximately half your century signums have the hand and half have the spear which I believe is accurate. The Maniple was no longer a unit, but it was vestigially still a concept, and the Hand icon is definitely the Maniple standard, whereas the pike standard is clearly not. So I've concluded that the first 3 centuries, still occasionally described as being Triarii, Principes, and Hastatii, would use the Hand icon to distinguish them as Priors and the rear companies Triarii, Principes, and Hastatii would use the Pike standard. Assuming that they had the ability to be equipped properly.

    One thing though. Would the signum standards be used for auxilia (both frontier and palatina) units, and cavalry units? At the moment I do because - despite people saying that the new auxilia (palatina) were different from the old auxilia (which I don't totally get; basically just heavy reliance on auxilia units with higher prestige for them if you'd ask me, right?) - I'm still following the old imperial structure, giving all of them a signum standard, a vexillum standard and a draco standard.
    I think that would be correct. The Auxilia were identical to the Legion formations, except in their foreign status, and particularities of their ethnic customs. Primarily being that they'd have significantly more cavalry in their formations, however this was more due to the drawbacks of the Roman soldier as a horseman than a horse culture among the auxiliaries.

    For example some of the Gallic Auxilia are evidenced to have collected the skulls of the enemy in Gallic fashion. Then you've got Batavians who were world class amphibious troops because they could swim in armor. Syrians got composite bows.

    Palatina are essentially foreign born Praetorians. Roman Emperors preferred Germans in their elite guard units. A practice which would continue on with the Variags of Byzantium.

    I dropped the imago standard and the eagle standard, because there was no more room. Besides, the imago seemed to have dropped out of use anyway around/after the time of Constantine and the eagle standards probably weren't present anymore because armies mainly consisted of detachments of old full legions. It may not be totally 100% accurate but it does give me a good argument for not adding those and giving priority to the signum, the vexillum and the draco standard. Eagles will still be present on certain signum and vexillum standards if you haven't noticed it.
    Yeah, the Imagio and Eagle are tied to the first cohort of the legion and the numbered cohorts and everything else kind of went away with the reforms. The new legions seem to have been cohorts give or take and thus should have a vexillum and draco for the whole unit and signums for the individual centuries. Eagles still existed, but I'm not sure if they were still assigned to every legion.
    Last edited by Col. Tartleton; June 27, 2013 at 01:46 PM.
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  5. #165
    Razor's Avatar Licenced to insult
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    Default Re: FALL OF ROME: IN HOC SIGNO VINCES (early 4th century Late Roman mod)

    So I've started touching the mounts. Marka horses will be the basis, but their textures contain quite a number of redundant parts. I'm trying to work towards new horse models and textures.

    Along the way, I managed fixed the death animations for Marka horses causing their necks to "break". A minor milestone for me so it seems because I have nothing with animating stuff.

    BEFORE FIX


    AFTER FIX



    Also, for those who are interested, I've included a fix for this common problem. As far as I know no one ever released a fix for this before.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by Razor; July 03, 2013 at 03:33 PM.

  6. #166
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: FALL OF ROME: IN HOC SIGNO VINCES (early 4th century Late Roman mod)

    Exelent work with the death animations my friend.
    Please check this for riders positioning by Briarius that kindly shared it with all of us.
    Our animator is missing so we wont have this exelent fix for a while.
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
    Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.


  7. #167
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    Default Re: FALL OF ROME: IN HOC SIGNO VINCES (early 4th century Late Roman mod)

    great work
    +rep

  8. #168
    Hrobatos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: FALL OF ROME: IN HOC SIGNO VINCES (early 4th century Late Roman mod)

    This is awesome! You shouldnt just hide it here, you should make it as a resource!

  9. #169
    Caudillo87's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: FALL OF ROME: IN HOC SIGNO VINCES (early 4th century Late Roman mod)

    Hmm, very nice, I never noticed them before. Well done Razor.

  10. #170
    Domesticus
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    Default Re: FALL OF ROME: IN HOC SIGNO VINCES (early 4th century Late Roman mod)

    Sounds like a very neat idea! I havent read the entire thread though, but you should get in touch with the IB2 team.

    They are doing similar stuff, and are very well established. You might could use some of their skins and stuff Invasio Barbarboum 2: Convestes Britanniae 2, has a start date of the late 400s

  11. #171
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    Default Re: FALL OF ROME: IN HOC SIGNO VINCES (early 4th century Late Roman mod)

    Which program you use to unpack animations?
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
    Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.


  12. #172
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    Default Re: FALL OF ROME: IN HOC SIGNO VINCES (early 4th century Late Roman mod)

    Thanks. I will add the pack as a resource in a couple of days.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Kriegtooth View Post
    Sounds like a very neat idea! I havent read the entire thread though, but you should get in touch with the IB2 team.

    They are doing similar stuff, and are very well established. You might could use some of their skins and stuff Invasio Barbarboum 2: Convestes Britanniae 2, has a start date of the late 400s
    Yes I know them. I could and I might, but many of those skins are all based on RTW skins. A number of them still use chunks of my late Roman pack. Maybe they would suffice as placeholders but nothing more really, because the skins and models differ totally in design and make up of my textures and models.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    Exelent work with the death animations my friend.
    Please check this for riders positioning by Briarius that kindly shared it with all of us.
    Our animator is missing so we wont have this exelent fix for a while.
    Thanks AnthoniusII! I remembered reading it, but forgot to save the link to the page. Thanks for the link. I hope you do find your missing animator some time soon!

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    Which program you use to unpack animations?
    To get all my new animations to work I didn't need to unpack any animations pack. I started with the released M2TW vanilla animations pack (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...tions-Released) and added the expanded Banzai animations by Banzai and Fabius and added the Marka horse and 1haxeman animationpack and my fix later on. However it should be possible with this tool: http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showth...-PACK-files%29

  13. #173
    tomySVK's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: FALL OF ROME: IN HOC SIGNO VINCES (early 4th century Late Roman mod)

    Great work again Also the previous debate was quite interesting.

  14. #174
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: FALL OF ROME: IN HOC SIGNO VINCES (early 4th century Late Roman mod)

    Razor you have both the comlpete fs horse marka folder and six cas files of death animation.
    These 6 files go in to animation folder on their own? Plus the complete horse marka file?
    TGC has a series of unique animations and i want ONLY to fix horses.
    What can i do?
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
    Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.


  15. #175
    Razor's Avatar Licenced to insult
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    Default Re: FALL OF ROME: IN HOC SIGNO VINCES (early 4th century Late Roman mod)

    Hmmm. If you make use of the same Marka animations pack that I provided you only need to copy the 6 .cas files and paste it in the folder fs_horse_marka. You don't happen to have all unpacked animations in your mod's animations folder (including .evt files)? If not repacking is impossible. It would be advisable to have all animations unpacked so you could easily add new animations or fix older ones later on.

  16. #176
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    Default Re: FALL OF ROME: IN HOC SIGNO VINCES (early 4th century Late Roman mod)

    I can't beleive I only notice this mod right now.
    I ran out of rep , but I'll make sure to rep the whole team tomorrow.
    Great project.
    The description Last of the Romans (Ultimus Romanorum) has historically been given to any man thought to embody the values of Ancient Roman civilization —values which, by implication, became extinct on his death. It has been used to describe a number of individuals.
    Flavius Belisarius (505?–565), one of the greatest generals of the Byzantine Empire and one of the most acclaimed generals in history. He was also the only Byzantine general to be granted a Roman Triumph.

  17. #177
    Razor's Avatar Licenced to insult
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    Default Re: FALL OF ROME: IN HOC SIGNO VINCES (early 4th century Late Roman mod)

    Thanks Flavius Belisarius. Unfortunately the whole team is for 95% just me.

    The second and third upgrades of the Equites Catafractarii/Clibanarii:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Credits:

    - Razor: models & textures
    - leif_erikson: tunic & shield textures
    Last edited by Razor; July 24, 2013 at 03:19 AM.

  18. #178
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    Default Re: FALL OF ROME: IN HOC SIGNO VINCES (early 4th century Late Roman mod)

    Splendid work! Since you are the only team member and I know how hard and slow mod creation can be are you considering some sort of reduced release?

  19. #179
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    Default Re: FALL OF ROME: IN HOC SIGNO VINCES (early 4th century Late Roman mod)

    Thanks Wallachian. Actually, I'm considering releasing the Romans as a separate unit pack for others mods/modders/anybody to use or modify. By doing so I hope to see some creativity going on in the late Roman scene and see some new units based on my designs and possibly/hopefully improved designs of my own and other variations. Since I'm mostly on my own, I can't possibly achieve the same detail and quality for other factions otherwise. Besides, I've come to a point where I'm in growing need of some external creativity influx...

  20. #180

    Default Re: FALL OF ROME: IN HOC SIGNO VINCES (early 4th century Late Roman mod)

    Whoa man! those units are topnotch!

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