Longbow Discussion

[mortem et gloria]

We will strive for an balanced approach, obviously. Battles will be longer than in vanilla, but don`t expect peasants to stand long without running from nobles etc.

The Household guards are among the elite. Just as skilled as knights, but fighting dismounted. (And wearing somewhat less armor.) Expect them to tear common men-at-arms to shreds. They are, however, available only in small numbers.

And why on earth would you assume this. There are hundreds of accounts in real life where the peasants have been the deciding factor in winning a battle. For example the main one . Agincourt where 5000 peasants and 2000 men at arms killed and defeated a vanguard of close to 20,000 dead (including the prisoners) as the nobles where in the front line. Most peasants hunted brawled etc. making up generally 90percent of your army, in. England it was the law for hundreds of years for men to practise the longbow.... Just remember that although they may not be as well equipped when defending there homeland they will always stand strong nobles are spared peasants are slaughtered

[The Dornishman]

you've got a point, but Agincourt isn't a great example as the victory was largely due to the fact that the french just came charging through deep mud and got slaughtered by long bowmen (and yeah your right almost all of the bowmen would have been peasants as all men had to learn to use a bow at 14 or something like that), m2tw is far too limited to take into account things like that so i guess you just have to assume, all advantages and disadvantages aside, in a completely fair fight the peasants would get wrecked, otherwise things could get very messy and complicated :/

[deusvult6]

Peasants in TW represent more of the "went around and picked a bunch of random dudes out of field aaand now fight" levie recruitment method, rather than the implementation of well-thought-out militia policies resulting in a well-equipped and proficient rank and file.

[Lordinquisitor]

Indeed. Levies will be the main part of your army, but assuming that they would stand firm like heroes against the charge of Knights or of well armored, highly skilled assault infantry is unreasonable. Levies in our mod represent the hastily drafted, poorly equipped men. Medieval 2 is sadly too limited to show aspects like soldiers looting armor etc. From the battlefield, or becoming part of the "standing" men-at-arms. Yet, experienced peasants on a hill or in a forest will be able to offer some challenge to knights.

[mortem et gloria]

Indeed. Levies will be the main part of your army, but assuming that they would stand firm like heroes against the charge of Knights or of well armored, highly skilled assault infantry is unreasonable. Levies in our mod represent the hastily drafted, poorly equipped men. Medieval 2 is sadly too limited to show aspects like soldiers looting armor etc. From the battlefield, or becoming part of the "standing" men-at-arms. Yet, experienced peasants on a hill or in a forest will be able to offer some challenge to knights.

the scots warred with england for many century's. constantly the peasants stood to the charge of cavalry knights. you have assumed that the knights and nobles are good fighters this is a false look at medieval warfare. there where as many inept knights as there where ones of note. for instance if you look at your typical army in the medieval times

says 10,000 men

you would have probably 9,000 un trained peasants in your army, they would generally be a very hardened people. constantly in the medieval world would small wars be fought. everyone in the peasent world would have a minor understanding of warfare all wishing for glory. i think that there moral should be slightly lower but not so much that they can not take a decent part in any battle situation. they care not for chivalry or any aspects of knightly values only of what they can get for there time on the war path.

poor birth and cheap tools and weapons do not make cowards, also through out the march they would be constantly learning the trade of death dealing.

[HannibalExMachina]

show me an example of "9,000 untrained peasants" winning a battle. even in the late middle ages, the massed use of longbows was quite unique to the english and not universally reciprocated despite its sucess. and these were lifelong trained "peasants".

this is OT btw, and not improved by lack of quality, no offense meant.

[Mhaedros]

I know this is OT, but I just want to point out that a coward and a man who doesn't know anything about warfare aren't the same things...

Mortem, in your magical little world the peasants would be readied for war and battle by ploughing fields. That just doesn't add up. It's like saying muscles are the most important part of chess

[Louis XVI]

Well for a long time in the middle ages a mounted army of nobles was the most formidable force in Europe, no army could stand against a mass charge of horses. Untill ofcourse the French army, which consisted of mounted nobles, was beaten by the English who used longbows and dug outs to break the French charge, the battles of Crecy, poitiers and agincourt proved that the French knights weren't invincible.
And ofcourse the Flemish in the battle of the golden spurs in which the Flemish citizens beat the French mounted knights (the battle was called battle of the golden spurs because after the battle the field was littered with the golden spurs of the fallen French knights).

I think Westeros is still in that first stage of medieval warfare were mounted knights are the most formidable weapon of warfare. If it wasnt then Westeros would not be such a feudal society, the defeat of the nobles on the fields of Europe was acompanied by the rise of the citizens in the cities; something we definetely don't see in Westeros (yet).

[Inarus]

I think everyone is confusing matters. Mortem's peasants were peasants who, under English law and from a young age, performed compulsory archery practice (I think daily, but it was definitely the only legal sport that could be practiced on a Sunday). The longbow was, yes, a peasant weapon used for hunting (and if you've just seen a Scotsman in York, murdering ) which meant that when a Baron was called upon to raise his levies he had a great many longbowmen. However due to the specialised training behind them there were few or no professional standing armies composed of them.

Peasants yes had a good morale in battles in comparison to the nobles for one key reason: they weren't getting ransomed Still, they weren't battle hardened men either, at least until they had been on a long campaign or two, and in a great many situations if your peasant sees a horde of angry Frogs charging him, he'll run for the hills... but then again if he knows full well that running is not an option, he's gonna damn well stand there and empty his quiver!

No Mhaedros, in his rather real world they had regular archery practice and lots of hunting... Of course then they killed off all the prey and turned to farming...

The Welsh also managed to slaughter many English knights and nobles by using longbows at close range in ambushes or upon hills to their advantage and longbows continued to be used well past the War of the Roses - the period which Westeros takes much inspiration from.

So lets see, Westeros will still have peasants... which are no doubt still carrying pitchforks and making us wonder why the heck they're even there, Westeros will also have levies and longbowmen... I'd ask your lord and grumpy master Toho where they stand in the roster

[HannibalExMachina]

our peasants are just the bottom end of the levy (after all, bottoms are like opinions, we all have one), and the only unit you can recruit with basically no requirements.

[APC46]

I really don't see what all the fuss has been about: from what we've been told, the mod makes a clear distinction between your average peasant and the trained longbowmen that mortem mentions. Plus it's worth noting that whilst peasants, the men in question (at Agincourt) were part of an offensive force who were going to war; here we're talking about hastily assembled men, presumably used in a desperate defence (otherwise you'd recruit something else).

Just think about a knight in full armour weighing at least 100kg on top of a warhorse weighing probably around 800-1000kg riding full tilt at a peasant wearing little-to-no armour weighing maybe 60 to 70kg at best. Say all you like, but the basic fact that peasants don't wear any/much armour means they will nearly always get easily killed/routed.

Getting back OT slightly, I'd say the Tyrell models do look a little bit too bright but hey, I'd much rather have an amazing model with that colour than no model at all

[Inarus]

I really don't see what all the fuss has been about: from what we've been told, the mod makes a clear distinction between your average peasant and the trained longbowmen that mortem mentions. Plus it's worth noting that whilst peasants, the men in question (at Agincourt) were part of an offensive force who were going to war; here we're talking about hastily assembled men, presumably used in a desperate defence (otherwise you'd recruit something else).

Just think about a knight in full armour weighing at least 100kg on top of a warhorse weighing probably around 800-1000kg riding full tilt at a peasant wearing little-to-no armour weighing maybe 60 to 70kg at best. Say all you like, but the basic fact that peasants don't wear any/much armour means they will nearly always get easily killed/routed.

Getting back OT slightly, I'd say the Tyrell models do look a little bit too bright but hey, I'd much rather have an amazing model with that colour than no model at all

People misreading the word peasant and thinking of guys wielding pitchforks... because that was likely to happen... So yeah, most of this argument is one over misreading terminology.

In the Feudal System (which the Medieval and Westerosi periods followed) a King would merely raise his levies by telling his dukes and barons he wanted all the men they could muster and march off to war, some had standing armies but those were expensive. Azincourt's Longbowmen were no doubt no different than the levies which defended against the wild Scots raiding the fair North and raping our women .

Oh, but when that arrow slams into that 100kg knight or his horse charges into a stake, he better prey to the Seven that a longbowman levy doesn't bash his brains out with a maul

And yes, let us try to wrap this discussion up, and look back at those emerald knights

[mortem et gloria]

People misreading the word peasant and thinking of guys wielding pitchforks... because that was likely to happen... So yeah, most of this argument is one over misreading terminology.

In the Feudal System (which the Medieval and Westerosi periods followed) a King would merely raise his levies by telling his dukes and barons he wanted all the men they could muster and march off to war, some had standing armies but those were expensive. Azincourt's Longbowmen were no doubt no different than the levies which defended against the wild Scots raiding the fair North and raping our women .

Oh, but when that arrow slams into that 100kg knight or his horse charges into a stake, he better prey to the Seven that a longbowman levy doesn't bash his brains out with a maul

And yes, let us try to wrap this discussion up, and look back at those emerald knights

finally someone who actually understands that 99% of everyone in england (which westeros is highly based on.) was part of the peasent class. there was generally no middle class it went

king
duke
lord/baron
knights
gentry
peasants

every battle you look at had at least 90% percent of the army with common folk.
and although the cavalry was a very decisive battle unit, it was not unstoppable long spears have been around since before 800bc with the hoplites etc.

say you where the average solider you would perhaps receive just one months pay for a 6 -12 month campaign there took there profit from the battle field and the plundering of cities.

if greatly out numbered on the open field any untrained solider will be tempted to flee.
but say for instance you are in your castle where when the rams batter down the gates no one shall be spared unless of noble birth you will not run.

also a knight had to live by a certain code of surrender to other nobles, the peasants did not follow this custom which often conceded to a massacre.

your mod your rules, but it would be a very silly thing indeed to think that is a coward with a pitch fork, they generally had a sword of spear or bow.
as a levy is generally the same kind of thing maybe removing the peasant element altogether may be an idea as it avoids confusion. it has always been a major irk of mine that hollywood and games try to give the whole pitch fork peasant idea.

but love the knights

edit> hannibal dude you constantly try to shoot me down on everything. there was never in the entirety of medieval warfare has 10,000 men with pitch forks stood to cavalry. but 10,000 common men with swords spears hammers axes is very believable, and unfortunatly is what happened EVERYTIME sure there would be high loses but it would not cause them to route.

and as you wanted proof here you go the basics to medieval conscription, the only way they can actually get an army.......

A shire levy was a means of military recruitment in medieval England. As opposed to a levy of noble families, a shire levy was effected within a geographical administrative area (a shire), entailing the mobilisation of able-bodied men between the ages of 16 and 60 within the shire for military duty.[1] Shire levies were especially important for England during the Hundred Years' War, when the escalation in warfare with France increased the need for soldiers: "the king was able to rely on the military support of the nobility and of the shire levies." [2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shire_levy

if your army was just nobles you would be lucky to have 3000men

[the duke dude]

I'm fairly certain that what you are trying to say is true about Europe in the middle ages, but this mod is about Westeros, and its important not to forget what a former 'peasant' who took part in the War of the Ninepenny King's says about common soldiers:

Almost all are common-born, simple folk who had never been more than a mile from the house where they were born until the day some lord came round to take them off to war. Poorly shod and poorly clad, they march away beneath his banners, ofttimes with no better arms than a sickle or a sharpened hoe, or a maul they made themselves by lashing a stone to a stick with strips of hide.

If they want new boots or a warmer cloak or maybe a rusted iron halfhelm, they need to take them from a corpse, and before long they are stealing from the living too, from the smallfolk whose lands they’re fighting in

They don’t know where they are or how to get back home and the lord they’re fighting for does not know their names, yet here he comes, shouting for them to form up, to make a line with their spears and scythes and sharpened hoes, to stand their ground. And the knights come down on them, faceless men clad all in steel, and the iron thunder of their charge seems to fill the world…

“And the man breaks.

These quotes taken from Septon Meribald's conversation to Brienne clearly show the kind of peasant levy available in Westeros. I very much doubt that such men could stand up against a fully armoured knight, a situation in which the Septon talks about.

[Lordinquisitor]

Indeed, our potrayal of the peasants is partly based on those quotes. Our levies represent smallfolk, without much training, that have been drafted, often on the fly while some lord passed through a small town.

The men-at-arms units portray "professional" soldiers AND peasants, who have been trained enough and who have acquired some additional armor and weapons. That`s due to the engine limitations.

We have three different levy units:

Peasants- Wearing only their clothes and using farming tools as their weapons. Those are the poorest of the poor.

Levy Archers- In Westeros there was no law, like, "all peasants must train with the longbow", so the peasant archers aren`t anything exceptional. They are those peasants who have been hunters before being drafted and they wield their hunting bows. They have some skill, but aren`t using the longbow and neither are they used to archery in a real life or death situation and also lack the coordination and the discipline of trained archers.

Levy Spearmen- Those are given an shield, sometimes an helmet and a sturdy spear. They can hold a line, for some time, but their lack of discipline and morale makes them unreliable at best.

[Mhaedros]

Peasants- Wearing only their clothes and using farming tools as their weapons. Those are the poorest of the poor.

The peasants also have small wooden shields

[ButtSwag]

Just like to say, the peasants of westeros wouldn't really be battle hardened would they? People are talking about England and stuff, but this is not England.

[deusvult6]

Yes, I agree, but, seriously, we need to drop it as it's been made abundantly clear already and if we keep going on about it the team is going to give us a peasant unit preview just to hammer it home. In fact, it's probably too late already.

[Inarus]

The issue with Westeros is that we know it is based on England, and as a result Martin put in that fateful word "Longbow".

So reading into this, we know one of two things:

A) Westerosi peasants are super strong Gladiators to whom farming is like digging in a sandpit - practice for some REAAAAAAAAAAAAAL work

B) Westerosi peasants had some of childhood training with longbows that means that when a Lord raises his levies he has a good deal of them.

With that in mind we come down to the question of implementation, I came into the Dev Team to find a well established situation and knew that for 1.0 to be released as soon as possible, it ought not to be changed.

For 2.0 I would love to research and implement some kind of realistic levy script like CK2's system, I know some Medieval 2 mods have such a thing but it means a lot of work for scripters and that is the main obstacle. And as the building guy, I would love to see that building tree, would be gorgeous... But one thing is certain, 1.0 will have no such system and nothing will change that, let me say though that the system we have is very, very different . Until then let us endure these Gladiator peasant longbowmen...

[HannibalExMachina]

weve a limited number of guys who use the longbow, as westeros has no compulsory archery on sunday, heck they dont even have a sunday. so no, westeros isnt england, and grrm hasnt put in any crecy. thats why this isnt the real world, its bloody fantasy.