The end of the world did not happen - Did you expected it?

[Hresvelgr]

You'll have to excuse my english for am i not a native speaker

But no,what i was trying to say is that to each baktun is characterized a line of predicted human behaviour,like the 10th baktun for example was described as the "holy wars" period between 830 and 1224 AD.The baktun we just ended was the Baktun of "Transformation of matter"

Sorry if i didnt made it clear from the start

Except I've never heard a reliable source saying that and I have many reliable sources. Furthermore I'm not sure why the example you gave would be described as the holy wars period. Sure, there were a bunch of Crusades out in Europe and the Levant, but what relevance does that have to the Maya? There's no evidence of similarly big religious conflicts in Mesoamerica at the time, or any part of the Western Hemisphere for that matter. Europe's hardly the center of the world, they wouldn't refer to an entire period based on the history off a continent they don't even know about yet.

[Éorl]

What? The world was said to end? Again? When? Why?

Seems like I missed all the fun once again.

[AqD]

This? http://www.lawoftime.org/infobooth/baktunmap.html

[Hresvelgr]

This? http://www.lawoftime.org/infobooth/baktunmap.html

Wow, that's exactly the kind of source you should try to avoid. It's obviously made by some New Agey weirdos with no knowledge of actual Maya culture and history. Just read their biography of the site's founder. Not an archaeologist, it's the founder of a bunch of hippie crap and the by his own admission the same cretin responsible for spreading this garbage about 2012.

[The Glorious Moldovan]

Wow, that's exactly the kind of source you should try to avoid. It's obviously made by some New Agey weirdos with no knowledge of actual Maya culture and history. Just read their biography of the site's founder. Not an archaeologist, it's the founder of a bunch of hippie crap and the by his own admission the same cretin responsible for spreading this garbage about 2012.

You seem well documented on the mayans
Could you please tell more?

Like..the big picture of the mayan calendar?or something

[Hresvelgr]

You seem well documented on the mayans
Could you please tell more?

Like..the big picture of the mayan calendar?or something

I assume you mean this?


Whenever there was a news article on the 2012 hysteria they'd inevitably use a picture of that artifact, but as it happens that artifact is neither Maya nor is it a calendar. It's Aztec, Mexica to be exact, and it was used as an altar. It does have some dates listed on it, but those are just relating to the images of creation and other mythological events. To put it into perspective, to call this a Maya calender would be like having a poster of Jesus Christ with some accompanying images of Genesis and other Biblical events with dates marking when they took place made by people in medieval France, only to have it be called an ancient Hungarian calendar that predicts the end of the world.

[The Glorious Moldovan]

I assume you mean this?


Whenever there was a news article on the 2012 hysteria they'd inevitably use a picture of that artifact, but as it happens that artifact is neither Maya nor is it a calendar. It's Aztec, Mexica to be exact, and it was used as an altar. It does have some dates listed on it, but those are just relating to the images of creation and other mythological events. To put it into perspective, to call this a Maya calender would be like having a poster of Jesus Christ with some accompanying images of Genesis and other Biblical events with dates marking when they took place made by people in medieval France, only to have it be called an ancient Hungarian calendar that predicts the end of the world.

Ah yes,that confusion i already know of.
What about some info that surounds the mayan calendar?
Like..what did the mayans really believe would happen?
Do you know any information that have spiritual conotations?

[Hresvelgr]

As it happens I have a thread that answers these questions as they pop up so frequently that I find myself answering them all over the internet. So it might be best to diverge further questions to this thread. In any case, since this particular question is relevant to the subject at hand I shall repost some of my answers here:

Information on the Maya calendar is rather easy to come by, given it's probably the most popular aspect of their culture. Only trouble is discerning actual information from the pseudoscience. If someone talks about 2012 as being the apocalypse or even the end date for the entire calendar, then you can automatically dismiss it. This site is actually pretty fun to use while containing a lot of intriguing info. Personally I think it's better than the Gregorian calendar, it's certainly more organized and consistent. Every month has the same amount of days, for starters. 20 days a month, 18 months a year, plus 5 unnamed days at the end that are considered bad luck. I've also heard the calendar is self-correcting as Maya astronomers were aware that a year isn't exactly 365 days. There are also in actuality 3 calendars you have to be aware of. There's the Haab, the civic calendar that has the 365-day years. There's also the Tzolk'in, which is the ritual calendar containing 260 days a year. The Tzolkin I've heard is still in use by some Maya farmers. Combining the Haab and Tzolk'in gets you the Calendar Round of 52-years. This Calendar Round is considered pretty significant, and was the longest measure of time by the Aztecs, but the Maya also had what's now called the Long Count calendar, which is the linear count of years from their (rather arbitrarily picked) start date of the current cycle extending on infinitely. There are multiple divisions of time within. The katun is particularly significant, a katun being roughly 20 years. The baktun (20 katuns, the Maya used a vigesimal number system) is what's getting a lot of attention now because the 13th one starts in a few months on December 21st and New Agers think it's the end of the world because New Agers generally tend to be crazy.

To elaborate on the differences between the Haab and Tzolkin beyond number of days, I shall explain more. The Haab functions in a civic or secular manner as I explained before and functioned more like our calendar. Though days were counted differently. The months were counted as beginning on the 0th of that month, which was shorthand for saying the "seating" of the uinal/month. Therefore a month would end on the 19th day rather than the 20th. They also held festivals every single month (meaning 18 festivals/holidays a year, and some could last for days, a lot of time to party!). Today for example is on the Haab calendar 4 Mol. That means the local carvers should be making images of the gods and preparing them with the proper ceremonies and rituals. Seems they've been a bit derelict in their duties though... As for the Tzolk'in, it decides more esoteric manners and Tzolk'in days each have their own flavor. They are also counted different. There are no months, instead there are 20 different names for Tzolk'in days and they are counted in order until after the 13th one, where the count begins anew with the next day. Today on the Tzolk'in is 2 Imix, meaning tomorrow is 3 Ik', then 4 Ak'bal and so on until 13 Eb, then the next day is 1 Ben followed by 2 Ix and so on. In any case, the Tzolk'in day can determine what is most auspicious and the likely portent's of a child's life. Outside of the Maya area children were often if not usually initially named after the Tzolk'in day they were born on, though the Maya don't seem to have done that often.

they had "prophecies" about what happened for every katun, or 20 year period. Prophecy is the commonly used term, but it's something of a misnomer. You see, while time periods had a certain flavor and similar things would happen on certain periods, it wouldn't be the same thing and they didn't predict anything specific. So forecast would be a more accurate term I guess. December 21st 2012 falls on the day 4 Ahau 3 Kankin, meaning that the katun started then is a 4 Ahau katun. According to the Books of Chilam Balam, this is a summary of the prophecy for a 4 Ahau katun: Quote:
There will be scarcities of corn and squash during this katun and this will lead to great mortality. This was the katun during which the settlement of Chichen Itza occurred, when the man-god Kukulcan (Quetzalcoatl) arrived. It is the katun of remembering and recording knowledge.

This is actually better than a lot of the others, the prophecies Chilam Balam gives tend to be very negative. The Books were from the Colonial era after all. If you were a superstitious sort, you should be more worried if it were an 8, 9, 11, or 13 Ahau katun, those are pretty grim. 4 Ahau is one of the most positive. But yeah, it's hardly the apocalyptic scenario a lot of people present, or the New Agers' weird "time of transcendence" jargon either.

This website also has an entire detailed section on the 2012 hysteria and I've used it as a source in the past. It's written by professionals, so you can trust them. Another good web source is David Stuart's blog. David Stuart is currently the most famous epigrapher (translator of glyphs) in the field and is also someone you can trust. To sum it all up, according to ancient Maya beliefs on December 21st 2012 the calendar would go from 12.19.19.17.19 to 13.0.0.0.0 and time would continue. The coming 20 years would bring its own kind of conflicts, though things aren't all bad and there's reason to be hopeful. There'd certainly be a big celebration though since a new baktun comes around only every 400 years roughly.

[The Glorious Moldovan]

There'd certainly be a big celebration though since a new baktun comes around only every 400 years roughly.

Thank you,i will look into that thread.
Now regarding the beggining of the new Baktun,i heared its suppouse to be big,that humanity can start all over again and based on what we "plant" now it will grow and "fruit" later.
Anything on that? or is it just pure symbolism?

[Hresvelgr]

Thank you,i will look into that thread.
Now regarding the beggining of the new Baktun,i heared its suppouse to be big,that humanity can start all over again and based on what we "plant" now it will grow and "fruit" later.
Anything on that? or is it just pure symbolism?

That stuff is not based on Maya beliefs, it's just ramblings I assume from the same people who created the website I railed against earlier.

[The Glorious Moldovan]

That stuff is not based on Maya beliefs, it's just ramblings I assume from the same people who created the website I railed against earlier.

Ah ok

And one last question.Did the mayans have any records that tell of their origin?
Where they came from(if they came from somewhere) how was their race created etc?

Because im not sticking to the popular theory that they just imigrated from asia from the bering.It seems kinda hard to believe for some reason

[Hresvelgr]

There's the Popol Vuh, the K'iche book of history that goes back to what they believed was the beginning, but unless you believe in Maya mythology there's really not much reason to doubt the Bering Land Bridge theory.

[The Glorious Moldovan]

There's the Popol Vuh, the K'iche book of history that goes back to what they believed was the beginning, but unless you believe in Maya mythology there's really not much reason to doubt the Bering Land Bridge theory.

Cool,lemme tap into that.I have my own opinion on migration matters,sure its not backed up with proof,but its for my own plesure.
Also,will it be ok with you if i bump this thread once in a while and ask you stuff that i didnt get from the popolvuh,in case i have one of those?

[Hresvelgr]

It would really be better if you diverted questions to the other thread where it's more relevant. It seems we've taken this thread wildly off-topic. In any case, I should mention the Popol Vuh only describes the history of a people who only seem to have become powerful (and literate) in the Postclassic era and there are differences from other Maya ethnic groups and from the Classic Era people most talk about. However, with all Pre-Columbian books from the Postclassic having been burnt to ashes and the books from the Classic having dissolved and eroded, we only have Colonial era writings to detail their history. The 4 surviving native books aren't about history and the history books written in the Roman alphabet don't go as far back as Pre-Columbian writings probably would have. And of course the Classic Maya didn't carve the history of their entire people upon walls. That's just impractical.

[Kaiser Nonsense]

erm, I can assure you I'm no genius nor aspire to be one.
but the 'Mayan Calander Apocalypse' is far from scientific in any way, we might as well debate theories about 9/11 or what not... I 'contributed' to the discussion by stating my opinion: which is that the idea is so ludicrous it does not deserve to be considered scientific

and I did not order NRohirrim to leave, nor forced him out of the discussion, but he is known for incitement

I'll leave it at that, good Sir

No, you were being prejudicial, simply because the man stated his faith in God, you turned him into a bullseye for criticism, as if simply because he believes in God, it's forbidden for him to enjoy scientific matters, or simply because one person enjoys science it's forbidden to believe in God.

And people like you make me sick, I was an atheist all my life, but I always respected people's faith, until 6 months ago I became a catholic (I was already baptised after I was born of course, but I was faithless) after studying history a lot, I've seen and realised I was wrong after all. But that isn't the fact here, the fact is, you are the kind of atheist that considers every Christian to be stupid, to be blind and dumb, as if we belived lightnings are the anger of God instead of electrical discharges that have already been proved, as one example, but what you like to to forget is, there are thousands, if not millions of Christian scientists, people of Ph.D and higher, whom have faith in God. Not to mention there are historians out there exploring the ancient cities and places of worship and everyday finding new proofs that Jesus existed. Science already accepted many times before that there are some things it cannot explain other than supernatural or God.

So I ask you, why do you consider yourself to be far superior than us, christians?

As for the topic at hand, how can you be that blind and not realise it IS science right here we are talking about? Since no one alive still has this faith in the ancient Gods of Maya society (I may be wrong, but you got my point). Have you not seen hundreds of documentaries and scientific programs made in 2011, 2012, scientists studying the skies, the earth, the time, the history, the... everything, trying to explain whether they were right or wrong beforehand, running thousands of tests, traveling here and there, digging the past and such and calculating the stars.

[Lord Baal]

That was rather uncalled for, really.

And science hasn't accepted squat of what your said or stated anything like "supernatural" stuff or "God did it", but I really like how your post if filled with hate and stating you are "sick" of that kind of people and made up numbers of scientists...

Anyone believing in the Mayan end of the world, regardless of it's religion (or lack of it), was and probably still is a big moron, there's no denying it, period.

[Kaiser Nonsense]

That was rather uncalled for, really.

And science hasn't accepted squat of what your said or stated anything like "supernatural" stuff or "God did it", but I really like how your post if filled with hate and stating you are "sick" of that kind of people and made up numbers of scientists...

Anyone believing in the Mayan end of the world, regardless of it's religion (or lack of it), was and probably still is a big moron, there's no denying it, period.

Yes, I may have guessed a number, not "made up", since I didn't say an exact number trying to imply I knew it for sure. And still, that isn't the major fact in my post, but very well, shall we take a look at stats?



As you can notice, only 2,32% of the world is atheist, now do you think all the 97,68% of the world are stupid, that you and your other 2 percent of the world are the masterminds? And now how many Ph.D and scientists there must be there on those 97,68%?

So here is my tip, have some respect.

Besides, I might have created the thread, but I did not start all this talk, I never believed in any of this bloody End of World theory and I've never met someone who actually thought thus, hence the thread was created.

And for a mighty mastermind atheist who doesn't even know how to spell P-E-A-S-A-N-T properly, I thank my dear God for the fact I do have lots of knowledge and still have faith in Christ.

[Lord Baal]

Of all those PHD's on that 97,68% percent of yours (wich I assume corresponds to a quick search on wikipedia, but you didn't see it's from a study that's almost 20 years old), how many exactly gained their doctorate by presenting a "God did it" thesis? I can tell you the number is very near to 0, at least for the tittles that are really worth for doing something in real life handed from real universities.

I can tell you, I'm being as respectful and callous as is called for, unlike you I must say. So here's my tip, follow you own tips before hading them out condescendingly.

I for one never call myself a atheist mastermind, I'm far from being a master mind on anything in fact. I find amusing you do it, and thank you for considering me such. Some might, quoting the character of Charlie Harper, say irony is for winners, ... but whatever, moving on.

Lastly, if you where, ehhmm.. let's say, curious, enough to actually recognize a link and click on it you would not be making a fool of yourself trying to teach me on how to spell mr. de Bois-Guilbert while presuming about having "lots of knowledge". Don't forget to thank you dear god for that too.

Have a good day sire.

[Sar1n]

As you can notice, only 2,32% of the world is atheist, now do you think all the 97,68% of the world are stupid, that you and your other 2 percent of the world are the masterminds? And now how many Ph.D and scientists there must be there on those 97,68%?

You completely ignored those 11.77% "nonreligious". Those are agnostic atheists and similar groups. Those 2.32% are "hard" atheists like Dawkins and similar.

Then there is difference between practicing religion and actually believing in it, many people, especially in theocracies like Iran have no choice but to actually be a member of religion without believing in it. So all those % can be really misleading.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

I don't believe that people who believe in God(s) are idiots, but I don't believe Atheists are Geniuses. The only thing that bugs me is when someone who believes in their religion refuses to accept that there are other possibilities than what it says in their book.