Illyrian Discussion

[Illyrian]

here is the quote

The book that i have quoted is "History of Greece till 322 B.C by hammond p. 547
"...Probably in 351 he (Philip) reduced the illyrians west and southwest of lake Lychnidus, except those near the adriatic coast, and left their king to rule as his vassal. This area, which included the silver-mines of Mamastium, paid him tribute and supplied fine light armed troops"
the illyrians prefered as I mentioned before the Machaira, a heavy slashing sword.
Although they traded with Attica, they were very rigid in their culture, not changing in that of the Hellenes. On the other hand, the Hellenes borrowed...

here is another quote in regards to illyrian heavy infantry.
"The spread of farming between the southern illyrians, contained because of the small workable surfaces of land its very hard to compare. Mayble the illyrians' ability to fight as heavy hoplite infantry as for example against the molossians in 385/384 B.C is witness of the growing Illyrian villages and population" p.144 "the Illyrian" John Wilkes

I tried to help you guys before... hopefully this info helps alittle.

[Snevets]

Well you may notice we have an Illyrian proto hoplite units (like we have a Macedonian and Epirote pre hoplite) even more well equiped than the Epirote one, which would support the Illyrian hoplite victory over Epirote hoplites wouldn't it? As for stats on the actual units, they will be very closely controlled and fine tuned, so don't worry about the balance, there won't be a slant against these guys (very much the opposite I think).

[Illyrian]

lol snevets, I like you, and since you are a cool guy, i will give you some info to make one of the most authentic units you have

here is the link, and the soldier has the earliest form of chainmail,

http://z4.invisionfree.com/The_Ancie...ost&id=2365150

It is a reconstruction of an Illyrian soldier 5th century bc.

the book is "illyrians" by John Wilkes

And you guys should be nice and say thank you, lol :tooth: , cause i have nothing against a greek mod, just that sometimes People like me have better info than you guys . SO don't be mad

[Idomeneas]

lol snevets, I like you, and since you are a cool guy, i will give you some info to make one of the most authentic units you have

here is the link, and the soldier has the earliest form of chainmail,

http://z4.invisionfree.com/The_Ancie...ost&id=2365150

It is a reconstruction of an Illyrian soldier 5th century bc.

the book is "illyrians" by John Wilkes

And you guys should be nice and say thank you, lol :tooth: , cause i have nothing against a greek mod, just that sometimes People like me have better info than you guys . SO don't be mad

Illyrian. I dont understand why anyone should thank you and for what. For supplying an off focus pic from digital camera which nothing can be seen? or for reffering to a highly questioned book? I simply dont see your point here. To support that illyrians had chainmail? I think you should provide more clues. IF illyrians had such an effective panoply dont you think greeks would have adopted it as they had done with thracian innovations? Or even persian ones as suggested by Xenophon? A nation caring THAT much about body protection would let that pass like that? They traded with all mediterranian and most of scythia and gaul. If chainmail existed it would be imported for sure and then developed. The fact that it did in hellenistic years proves that classical era greeks where not acting snobish towards chainmail, they simply didnt knew it. And if it was used on broad range by a close by culture which had extensive trade relations with them they would get it.

My conclusion is that chainmail didnt existed around greece by that time. And IF some chieftain had a primitive form of it aquired by celts that doesnt justifies its use within a game that actually has to do with masses not individuals.

If you want please focus better on that page use that thing called zoom and provide a pic that we can actually see what it shows and says. I mean, common.. how bad photographer can you be?

[Uranos]

Then, thank you :wink:

[Snevets]

Hmm interesting. What kind of headgear is he wearing?

[Illyrian]

I never said i was a good photographer. As far as the illyrians are concerned, the kings and a few selected few had the armour that you fellas are showing here, as armour and equipment wore by a large population. Illyrians had plenty of contact with celts, greeks, and many other cultures around the balcans. John Wilkes, whether correct or not, is one of the few people who wrote about the illyrians, and many scholars like Hammond who also wrote a book about Illyrians, does not disagree with the findings of Wilkes. Lets not forget that WIlkes has based much of his studies on the findings by some of Yugoslavia's highest regarded archeologists.

THe thank you's that i was refering to were due to some of the members of this mod, who did't believe in the info, so i finally decided to bring the pics forth. It is what the world would call "sarcasm", because the info that i brought forth before now have a face, as i was being called a propagandist.

I would like to know the name of the historian that says Wilkes is talking nonesense, because Many historians, including a professor at the Benedictine University, in Lisle, Illinois, I'll be back with the name, who is considered one of the top Alexandrian historians, believes and agrees with Wilkes and his writings. He is one of those historians who is advising closely on the new "ALEXANDER" movie, and one of the biggest critics on the previews one with Colin Ferrel. I had the pleasure to talk with him on the topic, and believe me (which you don't by the way,lol) he had much to say that you won't like. lol. I am a history major by the way, so i do have the honor to discuss with scholars.

You and many of your fellow historians like Apostate, i am sure, have better sources, Right??????????????? Enlighten us, cause i do have more sources than you can count, lol.

[Idomeneas]

I never said i was a good photographer. As far as the illyrians are concerned, the kings and a few selected few had the armour that you fellas are showing here, as armour and equipment wore by a large population. Illyrians had plenty of contact with celts, greeks, and many other cultures around the balcans. John Wilkes, whether correct or not, is one of the few people who wrote about the illyrians, and many scholars like Hammond who also wrote a book about Illyrians, does not disagree with the findings of Wilkes. Lets not forget that WIlkes has based much of his studies on the findings by some of Yugoslavia's highest regarded archeologists.

THe thank you's that i was refering to were due to some of the members of this mod, who did't believe in the info, so i finally decided to bring the pics forth. It is what the world would call "sarcasm", because the info that i brought forth before now have a face, as i was being called a propagandist.

I would like to know the name of the historian that says Wilkes is talking nonesense, because Many historians, including a professor at the Benedictine University, in Lisle, Illinois, I'll be back with the name, who is considered one of the top Alexandrian historians, believes and agrees with Wilkes and his writings. He is one of those historians who is advising closely on the new "ALEXANDER" movie, and one of the biggest critics on the previews one with Colin Ferrel. I had the pleasure to talk with him on the topic, and believe me (which you don't by the way,lol) he had much to say that you won't like. lol. I am a history major by the way, so i do have the honor to discuss with scholars.

You and many of your fellow historians like Apostate, i am sure, have better sources, Right??????????????? Enlighten us, cause i do have more sources than you can count, lol.

1 Apostate is not fellow of mine at all. We are like night and day (since im aheadbanger i ll prefer the night ).

2 The foto you post shows nothing. So i cant see what point you make even in the case you were right with an off focus foto.

3 Sources generally are considered archaeological findings and texts from ancient writers. What you mean is that you have many INTERPRETATIONS of sources by scholars and so-called schollars. And its logical. You know how many scholars and ''i wanna be somebodies'' are in the payroll of various propagandistic organizations trying to get afew bits of ancient history for their own interests? Insignificant states that left 2-3 broken potteries claim that they were great civilizations or people that came hundreds of years later in the region and claim ancient ancestry?


So please do us a favour. Althought im not impressed with all the ******** i see often around regarding mostly Macedonia and all kinds of crazy stuff like Turks claiming 10000 presence in asia minor or that Homer was Turk or that they are the ancestors of Scythians , that doesnt mean i can sit around and watch for long.

The reason that you basically troll undercover this thread is a) you try desperately prove relations between Illyrians and modern albanians b) you have an agenda with apostate and others long time now and i cant see why the rest we have to bear this. send a f... pm to apostate if you want so much his attention.

You dont try to help. You are on some kind of crusade. If it is THAT important to you create your own mod were Illyrians are not a bunch of raiding highlanders but a great noble empire with all the finds from your books and ''objective'' writers. No problem with that. I mean a guy try to make star wars mod. Any fantasy mod is possible with RTW. So either really trully help or keep your stuff for yourself and stop complaining all the time cause im really borred from your whine and everybody else with notions of glorifying any kind of mud-eating shepperds which raided once and awhile purely because of lack of resources.

BTW im not a member of Hegemonia for over 2 months now so you dont have to bust their balls. What i say its my opinion (as always). In fact you dont have to bust my balls either so dont bother answer go out have a drink, find some RL friends, instead of crusading on the internet. Jesus man...

PS Dont start whinning to the moderators and admins the way you did when they banned you, its pathetic...

Ok.... im going for a beer now...

[Illyrian]

good for you, after reading your post, i am going to need a beer, since unfortunately i don't have the pleasure to chat with you in person... You have to read John Wilkes, to actually talk about his book. I have, and the book does mention enough ancient authors, as well as discuss about all the new findings, reconstruction of equipment that is in bad shape.

I don't know you, but i do know Apostate, and our rivalry did go as far as it can on these forums, where we were banned, and I as well as he have laid our arms to rest on that issue. I got respect for a man (although it might be unhealthy) who protects his culture as he does. I give him props.
Don't know what your problem is, but yor pushing the envelope, and my envelope has been pushed to where there is no more pushing.
I have no crusades in mind, just want to help cause as i have mentioned before, i don't have the skinning skills these guys have, and i would like the Illyrians portrayed right. Not the way the Proud Greeks are portrayed, Honorable and proud, NOT.
Dont get fresh with me, i have nothing to do with the turkish problem, so lay it to rest.

[Idomeneas]

good for you, after reading your post, i am going to need a beer, since unfortunately i don't have the pleasure to chat with you in person... You have to read John Wilkes, to actually talk about his book. I have, and the book does mention enough ancient authors, as well as discuss about all the new findings, reconstruction of equipment that is in bad shape.

I don't know you, but i do know Apostate, and our rivalry did go as far as it can on these forums, where we were banned, and I as well as he have laid our arms to rest on that issue. I got respect for a man (although it might be unhealthy) who protects his culture as he does. I give him props.
Don't know what your problem is, but yor pushing the envelope, and my envelope has been pushed to where there is no more pushing.
I have no crusades in mind, just want to help cause as i have mentioned before, i don't have the skinning skills these guys have, and i would like the Illyrians portrayed right. Not the way the Proud Greeks are portrayed, Honorable and proud, NOT.
Dont get fresh with me, i have nothing to do with the turkish problem, so lay it to rest.

Illyrian if we were in person you would do what? You want an answer? You would do nothing, so save empty threats. You are right. You dont know me. I dont care about your rivalry with Apostate (i dont even like the guy) and i dont care about your envelops and folders...
I see you trol around for months and i say nothing but there is a limit. Nobody have to thank you for nothing cause simply your only ''help'' was ironic and sarcastic comments and off focus photos. You continue that practice by providing what it seems a rear view of a helmet with so general shape that could be even the rear of an attic-chalkedean or chalkedean helmet variation.

The illyrians are represented in a very fair way. Perhaps more that they deserve for the time period. About the appearence i too have many objections about some skins. The ''proud'' greeks as you say are represented that way cause they were indeed proud and was the dominating and most influencing culture of the area. Plus the fact that its a greek city state mod.

If you really wanted to help you would save sarcasm, provide elements in an efficient and laconic way (not with all this bubbling) and the team would decide what to keep what to reject and if some stuff are doable or worth the trouble doing them. I cant see why the team would reject any well based archaeological findings but thats not what you provide.

[Snevets]

This is irrelevant. You have a find, I want to know what the significance of it is and how you expect me to implement it. This is a promotional faction preview for a video game not a cutural battlefield. The Illyrians were not an organized coalition at this time let alone an empire, so the fact that we have represented them with a great amount of unity, and with this substantial faction list (more unique, non-foreigner recruitable units than any other faction!) is a very fair portrayal. Not even the gauls however were using chainmail so widely during this period. We could only represent our gaulic elite units with them because noble gauls only enter the game later on (there are several 'gaulic incursions' which put pressure on the Etruscans, gradually building up in size and frequency). Therefore the only concievable application for this find is as a superior general model, and even then since the generals all have to be more or less the same across a culture group I'm not sure it can be worked in. If you would really like to help and see this used please post more detailed information, preferably a better angle on the photo and a translated copy of the related text.

[Illyrian]

What it means is, that you can make a historically correct illyrian swordsman, not the heavy that you guys have.
I am not here to tell you to make superman, I am just giving you info to make them look more of what they would look like 2500 years ago. that is the reason behind it, and don't take my criticism as narcisism. As i said before, you guys have great skill, and i want to use them for my own ends, like making illyrians look as historical as possible.

I am not the best photographer out there, I know, and i have said before that i don't have a scanner, so it is not that easy for me to bring you everything I have.

here is another pic, the helmet of King Monynius, Dardanian, so you guys can make the leaders at least to look as historical as possible.

[Snevets]

Ok I'm fuzzy on this situation. We have Illyrian, who is debating the accuracy of representing Illyrian swordsmen without chainmail in the 5th century BC, and Idomeneas, who may or may not actually be on the team. Ido if you're not on the team, I can't see why you're posting here and getting involved in this discussion. Clearly you and Illyrian are not going to agree on this. Illyrian, what is your aim? Ido is right, its impossible to tell what these findings actually mean. I can't even tell what angle that helmet is viewed from, if its the back that is of no help at all, it looks like most helmets do. We're not representing an Illyrian unit with chainmail, that's completely unrealistic. What we can do is make a king unit with chainmail, but I need the supporting text and findings for that. How is it known this guy was Illyrian, what time period he was from or that the helmet is a king's? More evidence is necessary.

[Idomeneas]

Ok I'm fuzzy on this situation. We have Illyrian, who is debating the accuracy of representing Illyrian swordsmen without chainmail in the 5th century BC, and Idomeneas, who may or may not actually be on the team. Ido if you're not on the team, I can't see why you're posting here and getting involved in this discussion. Clearly you and Illyrian are not going to agree on this. Illyrian, what is your aim? Ido is right, its impossible to tell what these findings actually mean. I can't even tell what angle that helmet is viewed from, if its the back that is of no help at all, it looks like most helmets do. We're not representing an Illyrian unit with chainmail, that's completely unrealistic. What we can do is make a king unit with chainmail, but I need the supporting text and findings for that. How is it known this guy was Illyrian, what time period he was from or that the helmet is a king's? More evidence is necessary.

Ok. First of all i dont try to agree in anything with Illyrian since he expresses a point of view im opposed in general. I was ticked off by his constant wise ass comments with only elements of proof some bad photos that can be anything and a very disputed book of one researcher. Its remarkable that when it is about Greek findings the people that share Illyrian's views require various sources, ancient sources and even then they have something to question. On the other side when they wanna proove something just SOME research of someone should be enough to make a point. Well it doesnt work like this.

I merely pointed out a situation. This suppose to be a game mod but apparently these forums for someones are much more. And as you said my marks were right. I posted cause i felt like. I dont think that i need to be member or not to say my opinion. I mean the rest people here that say their opinion are members?

I dont think the whole issue deserved its own thread anyway.

[Musopticon?]

I merely pointed out a situation. This suppose to be a game mod but apparently these forums for someones are much more. And as you said my marks were right. I posted cause i felt like. I dont think that i need to be member or not to say my opinion. I mean the rest people here that say their opinion are members?

I dont think the whole issue deserved its own thread anyway.

Not that this has a lot to do with this topic itself, but the way you argued was more in tune with "omg yur stp0did und yur oppini0n is toopid!" thank anything resembling maturity.

In the internets, whatever they tell you, it's common courtesy not to attack on people you disagree with. It's obvious that Illyrian is very passionate about his views on his ancestors(well, not counting migrations) and you should at least be polite enough to respect that. I'm not saying you should agree with him, just not pounce on him.

It's generally better to post constructively than to post at all.

[Illyrian]

more info on illyrians


Mire se Vini


Miresevini ne web-faqen Illyria,ketu mund te gjeni nje histori te shkurter ne disa gjuhe te botes dhe historia eshte e shkruar nga autor shqiptar ,falemnderojm te gjithe ata qe do mund japin kontributin e tyre,me te mira nga Administrata.

History - Illyrians: THE ILLYRIANS
History - Illyrians Anonymous writes "
Click here for large text (print version)

By Prof. MUZAFER KORKUTI

Written sources from ancient authors have it that western Balkan region since ancient times were inhabited by the Illyrians, one of the largest people of the peninsula. Such interpretation of sources can also be backed up by archaeological, linguistic and anthropologic data, which might as well add to the conclusion that the Illyrians were a very ancient and autochthonous population that was formed in a very long historic and cultural process during both the bronze and iron ages (the second millennium BC).
Sources of Illyrian tribes may be found in the earliest works of the ancient literature in both Homer and Hesiod’s poems. The ancient writers' interest about Illyria and Illyrians grew soon after the first Hellenic colonies settled in the eastern Adriatic coast such as Dyrrachium, Apollonia and Orichon during the 7th to 6th centuries BC. The close links that these cities kept with the metropolis and the continuous visits by both Greek travellers and merchants in order to become acquainted and make deals in both rich minerals and agricultural and dairy products of Illyria, helped the Greek world acquire full and exact knowledge of Illyrians, and such firm data be may easily found across the well-known works of the historians of the ancient world, such as Herodotus and, particularly, Thucydides.
Records on the Illyrians' history come in abundance during the 4th to the 2d centuries BC. Among them Polybius’ works give key and precise data about the Illyrian Kingdom, but Apian's and Strabo’s ones are also worth mentioning.
In contrast, historic records during the first centuries AD appear to be very limited, whereas literary works by both ancient and Byzantine authors grow in number in the period that follows the 4th to 7th centuries AD (wherefrom one can draw valuable facts about the history of Illyria during the late antiquity).
Ancient and early-recorded sources of the middle Ages make up a key basis for reconstructing the history of the Illyrians and Arbërs. As a matter of fact, however, they appear to be fragmentary and somewhat insufficient and that’s why they can hardly reconstruct in full the historic development in the territory of Albania during the antiquity. However, if we were to explore and view them thoroughly within the context of archaeological data, we can achieve to reconstruct a fair standpoint of the Illyrian culture.
The Illyrians inhabited a large territory, whose northern border went as far as Danube’s branches (Sava and Drava); while southward it covered the bulk of prehistoric Epirus and extended as far as Ambracia bay (Preveza). Its eastern natural borders went as far as Morava and Vardar Rivers, while in the west were both Adriatic and Ionian coasts. A few Illyrian tribes like Mesapsa and Japygs were settled in the Southern Italy.
Their geographical position seems to have played a key role in their economic, social and political development for the mere reason that they were much close to the two greatest ancient civilisations – the Hellenic and Roman ones, and later the early Byzantine culture.
The first polis was born in the Southern Illyria during the 6th to 5th century BC. From the political standpoint, these city-states were hereditary monarchies, where representatives of the aristocracy of slave owners reigned. The administrative division had at its centre the city-state, where the dynasty appointed by the king was in power. Within the monarchical framework of the state, both Illyrian cities and regions all around them were self-governed in the form of communities with an executive council at the head that was elected yearly. During the 5th and 4th centuries BC, the Illyrian state is fully established. The most energetic king was Bardhyl who conquered and subdued the Macedonians, and in 359 BC he dared to challenge Philip II of Macedonia in order to restore the eastern borders. Under the rule of King Glaukia, the Illyrian state strengthens rapidly. In 355 BC war broke out against Alexander of Macedonia to free the eastern territories and in the meantime the Illyrians enter in alliance with Epirus by bringing to power Pyrrhus (309 BC).

[Illyrian]

i am not a photographer, i tried with everything i could. You don't want the pics, don't use them. As far as the empty threats issue, i am not threatening you. you and I would have a different conversation in person. Hiding behind a computer has made you quite brave, as it makes most people who can't raise their head in public situations, become quite beligerent...

what you see in the helmet is the back side of it, as it has the inscription of king Monynius himself. I has his name on it. As far as the chainmail, there is a couple of centuries older than Monynius.
The illyrians wore chainmail, not all illyrians, but the one on the book is more historical than the one portrayed by this mod. You wanted Historically correct units, I am giving you historical info to support. I will try to take a pic of that chainmail again, but don't come up here and insult my findings.

If you have any better ones, let me know, be my guest. And the axe cavalry should have a different axe

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgu...lr%3D%26sa%3DN

You guys do what you want, but don't get smart when something is foreign to you. History itself is obscure, and not all the info is 100% sure. What i have shown you here is what is relevant to your Illyrians' preview.

[Snevets]

I don't understand though. You post repeatedly, saying our preview is all wrong and this helmet belongs to higher citizens, this is wrong here, you need chainmail, you ought to have this... do you have ANY proof at all? Making this clear a drawing which looks like a rat's nest proclaimed as the helmet I should be using is not of much help.

[spirit_of_rob]

Since Illyrian didnt read the fact this discusion was moved here.


this is his post from the faction preview

Now lets talk about the helmet of the archer. It is all wrong. The helmet that you put on the archer is a helmet reserved for the higher classes, not the poorer citizens. I will a picture of the helmet that should be used. The top one is a female head dress, while the lower ones are leather helmets with metal studs, or scales.

The helmet is made of leather, with metal studs, or scales. Another drawing of that helmet is here


hope these help.

[Illyrian]

its all in albanian, and society in Ancient Illyrian had classes, and an archer was one of the poorest classes. Now if you look at the archer's helmet, it is of the illyrian type, missing the crest. And the dress of the soldier should be of the dirty white, representing the illyrians as sheep herderers. i will try to get you more info, give me a few days. Gotta go back to the book and check more detailed descriptions.