[Citizen] LolIsuck (Patron: General Brewster)

[Diamat]

This is truly a tough case, and I am still on the fence on this one. Here are my rationales:

1. No: His mods are inchoate; in perspective, he has not written that much, nor is he active in the discussion or debate forums to make up for this shortcoming
2. Yes: Great attitude and great potential; he will make a great citizen

I'll wait several days until I cast my vote. I must do some more research and thinking.

[Shankbot de Bodemloze]

Another thing to bear in mind is we won't know for sure if he will be a good citizen, I'm not saying he won't be - but it is something to consider when taking that approach.

[Aikanár]

Citizenship requirements

Formal reuqirements highlighted for reading convinience

Citizens

Contributing members of TWC have the opportunity to become a Citizen of the Forum as per Article 2 below. Once a member becomes a Citizen, they can then choose between 3 different badges. Artifex, designed for those who are modders, Civitate, designed for those who have contributed to the debating side of the Site, whether in TW or non-TW, and Citizen, for those who associate with both.

To qualify for Citizen, a member must have at least fifty posts, been a registered member for two months, and have no warnings. If a member has been warned, the member must have gone six consecutive months without a further warning.

All Citizens have the rights associated with Peregrinus, but in addition may post within the Curia, subject to the procedures in Section II; may post with the Symposium and may patronise other members as per Article II.

This is it. That is the only statement made in the constitution concerning the repuirements or prerequisites needed in order to become a citizen. Everything else is completely up to councillor's discretion!

The constitution does not offer any idea of what a contribution is, how many of it should be rendered, how the quality of such a thing called contribution should be. To add to this, there is absolutely no definition provided of what citizenship might be only that it exists and that members can get it if they qualify for the above quoted requirements.

That means that everybody -citizen, regular member or guest- can make up his own mind about what citizenship may be according to his own opinion. That also means that it's part of being a councillor to come up with a very own definition of what a contribution is, of how a contribution should be, of how many contributions are needed in order to become a citizen of what citizenhip is and of what citizenship should be good for. There is no constitutionally wrong or right with regards to these questions! Councillors are elected in order to make decisions based upon their discretion. They are expected to have build an opinion about and a definition of the answers to these questions in order that when they perform the duty they got elected for they can make a decision.

A man becomes preeminent, he's expected to have enthusiasms. Enthusiams... What are mine? What draws my admiration? What is that which gives me joy? Baseball! A man stands alone at the plate. This is the time for what? For individual achievement. There he stands alone. But in the field, what? Part of a team. Teamwork.... Looks, throws, catches, hustles. Part of one big team. Bats himself the live-long day, Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, and so on. If his team don't field... what is he? You follow me? No one. Sunny day, the stands are full of fans. What does he have to say? I'm goin' out there for myself. But... I get nowhere unless the team wins.
Robert De Niro in The Untouchables

Three things are crucial in the process of decisionmaking. First, they are transparent and articulated. Second, councillors can be held responsible for their decisionmaking and actions by all citizens (comments, discussion, vote and vonc). And third, everybody is free to agree or disagree with a decision of a councillor, but they are generally respected, if not necessarily liked.

Now, while you may excuse (or not ) me soapoxing, what it comes down to for every councillor is to be able to answer those questions to himself and then act based upon his answers. When I joined the CdeC 11 months ago I was expecting people to deliver a lot in order to qualify for citizenship. According to my opinion citizenship was a very elitist and exclusive thing, a highly precious thing of nearly unvaluable worth. I was of the opinion that people should work their backsides off if they wanted this thing. I guess, that this is not only true for me but is likely to be the opinion of others too. At least a lot of rep-comments and pms and vms indicated that. But what was really obvious was that the effort I have and am putting into researching applicants was highly appreciated. It's worth to notice and mention that being thorough and rising the bar of expectations high is not the same, nor must this be related!

During my 11 months of service I've had the opportunity to discuss with a lot of people who have a ton of experience in nearly every field of TWC. All of those people have opinions, some may even drive agendas, but that may be true for a lot of people. What discussing with all these people made me recognize is, that there is a lot to learn and that every opinion has some sort of truth hidden in it, even though I might not agree with it. So to make a long story short, my opinions were liable to change. Yes, I have lowered my expectations of what people should have contributed in order to receive citizenship. Is this bad? I don't think so.

When I last got reelected you elected me for or despite of

Besides being a hard worker, I still stand by my definition of what a contribution is: something crafted with skill and effort for the benefit of TWC. But I now regard Citizenship as a tool to make other people feel welcome here. That means that I will not demand as much contributions as I've done before and that also means that I may vote yes on Applicants in good faith when I think they got what it takes, but have not released all that much in order to make them feel, like I feel in the CVRIA: A very comfy place in the web which I consider my TWC living room.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...0#post12234890

Come to the point Aik - yeah I'm about to

What is citizenship good for? It is a reward for rendered contributions and a tool to make people feel at home at TWC.

What is a contribution: something created with effort and skill which benefits TWC.

Has lolIsuck contributed? Yes, his ES articles, his beta testing, his research, some of his posts in the TD, his map preview shots, his helpful attitude.

Has he contributed enough? If he was not such a nice guy, no. Since he is such a nice guy, yes.

Will lolIsuck be a good citizen? I'm convinced he will be, he's a great guy and will be an asset to the citizenry!

How do you know that? I cannot, but I have faith in him!

I have voted yes.

[Lord William]

I am quite confliected with this application and though i consider attitude a major asset as a citizen, i cant just ignore the lack of contributions. his mods are incomplete, his research lacks depth and though his articles are nice the fact is that they short and there is only 2. i hope this doesnt discourage him, he has a good thing going and should he continue his path I am certain he shall enter the hallowed halls in no time. I myself lost count the amount of times applied before being welcomed into the brotherhood, My first applcation i had 4-5 articles with ES and i believe some local moderation of an RPG. anyways the point is dont get disheartened, just try again


Voting No

[Leonidas The Lion]

Not enough for me at this point.

[Robin de Bodemloze]

Voted no. As much as I appreciate Aik's reasoning it remains my conviction that citizenship should be judged upon solid contributions. Friendliness around the forum goes beyond being a simple requisite but friendliness without solid work done is not enough in my view.

Having said that if the applicant sticks to his guns and comes back with more content/modding work he would pass quite easily.

[Aikanár]

That raises the question how solid is solid enough? Also, what is a more solid or worthy contribution, making people happy because they enjoy an article of yours or making people smile and feel good because of an entertaining post of yours?

Again questions that everybody needs to answer first and foremost to himself.

[Shankbot de Bodemloze]

That raises the question how solid is solid enough? Also, what is a more solid or worthy contribution, making people happy because they enjoy an article of yours or making people smile and feel good because of an entertaining post of yours?

Again questions that everybody needs to answer first and foremost to himself.

I've answered them.

Sorry lolIsuck it is a no from me - you're doing a great job, have a great attitude, and are obviously well-liked by the community. However I feel you haven't done quite enough, if you come back with a Bronze Quill, maybe one or two more ES articles or a new released modding preview/update to your modding projects then it will be a big fat yes.

[Genius of the Restoration]

Do you classify entertainment as being of relative value to work in content staff?

[Robin de Bodemloze]

That raises the question how solid is solid enough? Also, what is a more solid or worthy contribution, making people happy because they enjoy an article of yours or making people smile and feel good because of an entertaining post of yours?

Again questions that everybody needs to answer first and foremost to himself.

Do you classify entertainment as being of relative value to work in content staff?

Seriously guys? Why portray this as some great moral dilemma?

The line between solid contributions and "entertainment" is pretty solid in my opinion. There really isn't this vast spectrum of greyness in between. The former requires preparation, planning, research, execution, refinement - be it in the form of a mod, piece of writing, RPG management, debating, content - stuff generally considered "work". Such work adds to the sum of human knowledge on the forums. The latter is chatter: typically a couple short lines of spontaneous (or in cases, questionable) wit. "Fun", if you will.

I find it hard to consider happy spamming a "contribution", but maybe that's just me. So long as you believe peregrinus generally aspire to become citizens, the standard this council applies sets the tone for what people aim for outside of it so that they too may attain citizenship. If we promote individuals for doing "work" it promotes the status of such things. If we promote individuals for "fun" then we're simply encouraging activity in the TD.

To the inevitable next question of "isn't helping people have fun valuable": Fun will happen regardless, without the need for this council to promote it. Thus greasing the wheels of the fun machine is arguably less valuable than doing "work".

More relevantly to this case - the applicant is clearly excellent at being a fun community guy. I'd be more than happy to vote yes if only there was more "work" to his resume.

[Aikanár]

Seriously guys? Why portray this as some great moral dilemma?

The line between solid contributions and "entertainment" is pretty solid in my opinion. There really isn't this vast spectrum of greyness in between. The former requires preparation, planning, research, execution, refinement - be it in the form of a mod, piece of writing, RPG management, debating, content - stuff generally considered "work". Contributions are things that add to the sum of human knowledge on the forums. The latter is chatter - typically a couple short lines of spontaneous (or in cases, questionable) wit. "Fun", if you will.

I find it hard to consider happy spamming a "contribution", but maybe that's just me. The standards for citizenship set the tone for what peregrinus aim for outside of it - so that they may attain citizenship. If we promote individuals for doing "work" it promotes the status of such things. If we promote individuals for "fun" then we're simply encouraging activity in the TD.

I'm not promoting spamming. Does lolIsuck tend to post in a spammy fashion. Yes, he does. Have I factored that into my deliberations. Indeed, I have. If other it wouldn't have needed to read more than 4.000 posts of his. I wouldn't have had to spend hours to contemplate about this case. I wouldn't have felt to be on the fence concerning this case.

You have decided that his contributions are not enough for you, hence you've voted no. That is perfectly fine since you've to justify your decision first and foremost before yourself. You need to feel that it's the right decision you made. I respect that!

And you're absolutely right, crafting an article, creating a mod, discussing a topic, creating an rpg, writing an AAR and all the other contributions you can grasp require thought, preperation, planning, research, execution, refinemnet and commitment and other things. That's aboslutely true! But while this is true, those are things that can be acquired, things that can be learned. Don't get me wrong, This is not a qualifying or disqualifying statement. I highly value people who do acquire these things and who work tirelessly in order to make TWC a better place to enjoy for all of its members.

But making other people feel good, making them smile without humiliating others in this process cannot be learned, this is a thing that comes natural to people and I'm hard pressed to not acknowledge that fact. We all come here to enjoy ourselves and that is a good thing. But I believe that people who are gifted with the ability to make other people happy without referring to do so on the expense of other people are an asset to the community. Since this is a natural thing, you could argue that this happens from itself and that we must not do something in order to promote it. Yes, but part of what I think what citizenship is good for is rewarding people for things they contribute to the communtiy and making other people feel good is, according to my opinion, one of the most noble things one can contribute, the fact that it comes natural to lolIsuck does not diminish the value of that ability to TWC.

How often do you browse the fora after a hard day trying to relax and have fun and without expecting it, you come across a post of somebody that just makes you smile and feel good? For me, it's more often than not that lolIsuck's posts do that to me and that's something I cannot value high enough.

I don't say that what strikes true for me must necessarily strike true for somebody else, but since this is the case for me, I cannot dismiss it and hence voted yes.

[Robin de Bodemloze]

And you're absolutely right crafting an article, creating a mod, discussing a topic, creating an rpg, writing an AAR and all the other contributions you can grasp require thought, preperation, planning, researc, execution, refinemnet and commitment and other things. That's aboslutely true! But while this is true, those are things that can be acquired, things that can be learned. Don't get me wrong, This is not a qualifying or disqualifying statement. I highly value people who do acquire these things and who work tirelessly in order to make TWC a better place to enjoy for all of its members.

But making other people feel good, making them smile without humiliating others in this process cannot be learned, this is a thing that comes natural to people and I'm hard pressed to not acknowledge that fact.

Umm, nein.

*insert Hitler clip here*

[Aikanár]

Do you classify entertainment as being of relative value to work in content staff?

I think entertainment, doing something for your own and possibly the joy of others, is of relative value to every work. Do you do things that don't entertain you in your spare time? If you happen to entertiain others by doing things that you enjoy, even better. Dont' you think?

[Diamat]

I wish to make a quick comment regarding "spamming." Perhaps because I was born in the cradle of the Thema Devia, I strongly dislike the word "spamming" when people's posts are judged here by the CdeC. If someone plays one-word games in the Coliseum, then he is just doing what the thread wants you to do. The same goes for other threads. This is just one form of posting, but should not detract from the applicant's worthiness as a whole. True, such posts do not give you plus points in the application process, but they should not result in negative points.

Having said that, I have decided to vote "no" on lolIsuck's application. The reasons are as stated earlier: inchoate mods; only few writing contributions. It's as simple as that. However, this has been an extremely difficult decision for me. I was strongly considering voting "yes," for the same reasons as were stated by Aikanar, because I know that lolIsuck will make a fantastic citizen. But in the end I decided to stick with the standards by which I was evaluated, for I was fearing that voting "yes" would be a really subjective decision, especially because I am good friends with lolIsuck. Judging him by hard contributions, seemed the better option in this case.

I know what some citizens might think about all this. They may think that this is once again proving that the bar is too high. Perhaps they are right. Perhaps not. This was my first decision as a councilor. And it was a tough one.

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

I wish to make a quick comment regarding "spamming."

I know what some citizens might think about all this. They may think that this is once again proving that the bar is too high. Perhaps they are right. Perhaps not. This was my first decision as a councilor. And it was a tough one.

green eggs and ham


Spamming is not the death nell that it once might have been in regards to citizenship reviews. In the distant past there was a case in which the applicant was 85% spam. While I was drowning in it and about to give up hope, I noticed that all the heavy hitters were voting yes, so I resolved to keep digging. Whala...there amonst the lard was a diamond, mater of fact a few of them. On that day I voted yes, 85% spam, trans fats and all.

So even spammy with two eggs and hammy, can hold sway here...

I know what some citizens might think about all this. They may think that this is once again proving that the bar is too high. Perhaps they are right. Perhaps not. This was my first decision as a councilor. And it was a tough one.

A CdeC councilor is entrusted to vote their consience, and fight for what they think is right. Other views can get stuffed, and are relieved from having to leave a tip if they did'nt care for the day's affair.

[Aikanár]

Man I was so tempted to edit your post and insert a clip and type "as per request" into the edit comment line.

[Robin de Bodemloze]

Then I'd be forced to VoNC you for abuse of power.

[Genius of the Restoration]

Seriously guys? Why portray this as some great moral dilemma?

The line between solid contributions and "entertainment" is pretty solid in my opinion.

I don't think I portrayed it as a great moral dilemma. I agree with you BTW and don't see entertainment as something that needs to be encouraged via citizenship.

[Robin de Bodemloze]

I don't think I portrayed it as a great moral dilemma. I agree with you BTW and don't see entertainment as something that needs to be encouraged via citizenship.

Fair enough. I read it as implying the answer is debatable.

[Mega Tortas de Bodemloze]

Let's see... I shall be back before the poll is closed so I will withhold my vote til then, but as it stands...

Curtain groups are not singing "Cum-ba-ya my Lord, Cum-ba -ya" in unison and harmony...

* about the Content Contibutions.
* about the Modding work.

December 22, 2012, 07:24 PM / [M2TW] Index of Modding Tutorials, Resources & Tools

The reworked tutorial is nice, the date it was posted makes for a nice stocking stuffer, tis a pity though that other inferences could be made.

*************

Now, the reason that I would vote no is because that the overall presentation felt a tad light, even not considering what I have mentioned above. I'm emmensley proud of what the applicant has accomplished to date, and with the current momentum this will win the day the next time round.

Yes being nice matters{carries weight}, and Yes being entertaining is persuasive. {to me}.

...........



To the Board Members: If you feel "God wills it" then "SoapBox". This day is certainly not won one way or the other.

......