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  1. #1

    Default Religious discussion split from: "My letter to the ADN" thread.

    Thread split from here:

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...5&page=1&pp=20

    -Honor&Glory



    As far as the Koran is concerned, Christians, Jews and all other followers of the the Abrahamic religions are all People of the Book. They are all worshipers of the same God
    No they dont worship the same god. They said that to gain converts.

    The Rabbi claimed that the Jews and Muslims managed to peacefully co-exist for centuries.
    That they did until a certain realtive of arafats came on the scene.

    They just wish for their lands back and for the Middle East to be restored to it's former glory, the Islamic Empire.
    Its former glory



    What you want to take it back 700 years? How about we let the Jews restore Israel to its former glory?

    And again their never were any palestinians who governed these lands so I guess you want to give them back to the Turks . If we go by the first state to own it then all of Palestine belongs to Israel.
    Last edited by Richard the Lionheart; August 06, 2006 at 09:00 PM.
    I have nothing against the womens movement. Especially when Im walking behind it.


  2. #2
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    Default Re: My letter to the ADN

    Quote Originally Posted by Rush Limbaugh
    Give me quotes from the bible that encourages christians to slay non believers. Or even treat them in any way differently.
    Sorry I'm late with my list you asked for...

    Acts

    3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

    16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

    Corinthians

    10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

    2 Corinthians

    6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

    I would have come up with a longer list but I was in a rush. There's a lot of anti-semetism in the bible too...

    The thing with Christianity is they say 'You don't murder them, God will torture them when they die anyway!'


    Before Hader jumps in with his "OMG! Anti-christian comments!!!1!!1!!!" I would like to point out that I was specifically asked to find intolerance in the bible and the whole point in this post is that most religions have there intolerant passages but that doesn't make them 'evil'.

    Also note that these are from the New Testament because I get attacked when using the Old Testament.

  3. #3

    Default Re: My letter to the ADN

    Quote Originally Posted by Rush Limbaugh
    No they dont worship the same god. They said that to gain converts.
    Just like how the Christians say that Jesus is God so that they'll get more converts? :wink:

    Anyways, it's in the Koran:

    "Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians, and who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord: on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." 2:62

  4. #4

    Default Re: My letter to the ADN

    Acts

    3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

    16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

    Corinthians

    10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

    2 Corinthians

    6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
    All old testament stuff directed at the Jews not christains.

    Just like how the Christians say that Jesus is God so that they'll get more converts
    No since the majority of people in the region were Jews and christains they had to recognise them somehow .

    "Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians, and who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord: on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." 2:62
    You will have to give me a link to that one.

    This seems to totally discredit your claim

    Do Muslims and Christians worship the same God?
    The Quran states that Muslims, Jews and Christians worship the same God (Sura 29:46).

    However, Islamic tradition teaches that only Muslims will be admitted to Paradise. Though they are considered "People of the Book" - a reference to Jewish and Christian scriptures - Jews and Christians are excluded.

    Muslims claim - without providing irrefutable proof - that Christians and Jews have corrupted the Scriptures, and teach that everyone must instead accept the teachings of the Quran.

    When compared with the Jewish and Christian scriptures, the teachings of Quran show that Allah is not the same God worshipped by Jews and Christians.



    God — The Koran asserts that the god of Islam is the God of Christians and Jews (Sura 29:46). Nothing could be farther from the truth.7

    The god of Islam, Allah, is most definitely not the God of the Bible. Allah is presented in the Koran as an autocratic ruler who is aloof and arbitrary (Sura 5:40). Allah is unknowable whereas the God of the Bible is knowable (2 Timothy 1:12). Allah is impersonal, unlike the personal God the Scriptures reveal (1 Peter 5:6-7). Allah is unitarian (Sura 4:48) whereas the God of the Bible is trinitarian (2 Corinthians 13:14). Here is what the Koran says about the God of the Bible (Sura 4:171): “Believe in Allah and say not ‘Trinity.’ Cease! It is better for you! Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from his transcendent majesty that he should have a son.”

    Allah is capricious (Sura 2:284), whereas the true God is trustworthy. And Allah is never anywhere presented as a god of love — which is the essence of the nature of the true God (1 John 4:7-16).

    Jesus — The Koran denies point blank that Jesus was the Son of God (Sura 112:2-3). It also denies His atoning sacrifice by claiming that he never died (Sura 4:157). A substitute died for Him on the Cross. Jesus was translated to Heaven, like Enoch, where He will remain until He returns to kill all pigs, destroy all crosses, and convert the world to Islam. Jesus will marry, reign for 40 years and then die and be buried next to Muhammad in Medina.8 Jesus is characterized in the Koran as nothing more than “an apostle of Allah” (Sura 4:171).
    Source: The Truth About Islam Dr. David R. Reagan

    I have nothing against the womens movement. Especially when Im walking behind it.


  5. #5

    Default Re: My letter to the ADN

    All old testament stuff directed at the Jews not christains.
    Is the old testament not part of the bible?


    No since the majority of people in the region were Jews and christains they had to recognise them somehow .
    That still is no excuse for people claiming Jesus(PBUH) was God's son in order to gain more followers.


    You will have to give me a link to that one.

    This seems to totally discredit your claim
    First, who said all those, and who posted 'em?

    Adnan

  6. #6

    Default Re: My letter to the ADN

    Is the old testament not part of the bible?
    That it is but those passages are directed at Jews as is the whole old testament. Theres nothing telling christains to attack anyone.

    That still is no excuse for people claiming Jesus(PBUH) was God's son in order to gain more followers.
    No one even said any such thing.

    First, who said all those, and who posted 'em?
    Its right there in plain sight

    Source: The Truth About Islam Dr. David R. Reagan
    I can give you dozens more if you like by other people.
    I have nothing against the womens movement. Especially when Im walking behind it.


  7. #7
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    Default Re: My letter to the ADN

    Quote Originally Posted by Rush Limbaugh
    That it is but those passages are directed at Jews as is the whole old testament. Theres nothing telling christains to attack anyone.
    Sorry to go off topic but this is beginning to annoy me...

    Acts and Corinthians are NEW TESTAMENT books!

  8. #8
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    Default Re: My letter to the ADN

    Quote Originally Posted by Rush Limbaugh
    All old testament stuff
    Acts and Corinthians are both New Testament books.

    directed at the Jews not christains.
    ?

    I don't get what you mean...
    It's directed at all non-christians...

  9. #9

    Default Re: My letter to the ADN

    Quote Originally Posted by Rush Limbaugh
    You will have to give me a link to that one.

    This seems to totally discredit your claim
    Who's perspective are we talking about here? Are we not talking about the Muslim perspective? Or are we talking about the Christian perspective? Or are we talking about the Jewish perspective?

    The only way to determine whether or not they all worship the same God would be by ignoring all their individual scriptures and just talking to God. :wink: But even before talking to God, you would have to prove that a God even exists.
    Last edited by Richard the Lionheart; August 06, 2006 at 08:18 PM.

  10. #10
    AngryTitusPullo's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: My letter to the ADN

    Quote Originally Posted by Honor&Glory
    Just like how the Christians say that Jesus is God so that they'll get more converts? :wink:

    Anyways, it's in the Koran:

    "Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians, and who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord: on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." 2:62
    I believe this means that the Jews (prior to Jesus) and the Christians (prior to Muhammad). When the new law is established, the old ones are now void. This verses however means that those followers of religion before Muhammad came will also have thier rewards, provided they stay true to the teachings and laws of Moses (in case of the Jews) and Christians (or Nasrani in the Qur'an - for followers of Jesus).

    **********

    As for those quoted verses I don't quite understand the point. I mean, don't it even have statutes or whatever even in the law of the State of Missisipi (for example) that if you don't follow the law of the State when you in state you'll must expect to be fined or jailed whatsoever depending on you crime ? :hmmm:


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  11. #11

    Default Re: Religious discussion split from: "My letter to the ADN" thread.

    I believe this means that the Jews (prior to Jesus) and the Christians (prior to Muhammad). When the new law is established, the old ones are now void. This verses however means that those followers of religion before Muhammad came will also have thier rewards, provided they stay true to the teachings and laws of Moses (in case of the Jews) and Christians (or Nasrani in the Qur'an - for followers of Jesus
    Have you ever seen what follows that passage?

    2:63 And (remember, O Children of Israel) when We made a covenant with you and caused the mount to tower above you, (saying): Hold fast that which We have given you, and remember that which is therein, that ye may ward off (evil).
    2:64 Then, even after that, ye turned away, and if it had not been for the grace of Allah and His mercy ye had been among the losers.
    2:65 And ye know of those of you who broke the Sabbath, how We said unto them: Be ye apes, despised and hated! Allah turned Sabbath-breaking Jews into apes to be despised and hated.
    2:66 And We made it an example to their own and to succeeding generations, and an admonition to the God-fearing.

    "9.30" : And the Jews say: Ś UzairŚ is the son of Allah; and the
    Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of
    their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may
    Allah destroy them; how they are turned away! From the Ś HadithŚ , a body of
    traditions relating to Mohammed and now supplemental to the Koran: He (Abu Ś
    HurayahŚ ) reported the messenger of Allah as saying: The last hour will not
    come before the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them, so that
    Jews will hide behind stones and trees and the Stone and the tree will say,
    O Muslim, O servant of God! There is a Jew behind me; come and kill him.
    The only exception will be the box-thorn for it is one of the trees of the
    Jews. SahihŚ of Muslim , quoted by Israel and the Prophecies of Al Ś QuranŚ
    by Ali Akbar, Ś BismiŚ Publishers 1992, p.44) (Palestinian Media Watch in
    Israel reported in July 2001 that at least four times in recent months
    Palestinian religious leaders had taught publicly that this Ś HadithŚ
    (Islamic traditions attributed to Mohammed) is an authoritative directive of
    Islam today, expressing Allahąs will that obedient Muslims kill Jews). (In
    the terminology of Islam, unbelievers are Jews and Christians)


    THE KORAN ON CHRISTIANS

    "4.156-158" : And for their unbelief and for their having uttered against Ś
    MariumŚ a grievous calumny. And their saying: Surely we have killed the
    Messiah, Isa son of Ś MariumŚ , the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill
    him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most
    surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no
    knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him
    not for sure. Nay! +Z&- Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty,
    Wise.

    4.171" : O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion,
    and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah,
    Isa son of Ś MariumŚ is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He
    communicated to Ś MariumŚ and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah
    and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is
    only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever
    is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is
    sufficient for a Protector.

    "5.14" : And with those who say, We are Christians, We made a covenant, but
    they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of, therefore We excited
    among them enmity and hatred to the day of resurrection; and Allah will
    inform them of what they did.

    "5.18" : And the Jews and the Christians say: We are the sons of Allah and
    His beloved ones. Say: Why does He then chastise you for your faults? Nay,
    you are mortals from among those whom He has created, He forgives whom He
    pleases and chastises whom He pleases; and Allah's is the kingdom of the
    heavens and the earth and what is between them, and to Him is the eventual
    coming.

    5.51" : O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for
    friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them
    for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the
    unjust people.

    "5.69" : Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Ś SabiansŚ
    and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good
    they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve.

    "5.72" : Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah, He is the Messiah,
    son of Ś MariumŚ and the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! serve Allah, my
    Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then
    Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there
    shall be no helpers for the unjust.

    "5.73" : Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is the third
    (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one God, and if they
    desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those
    among them who disbelieve.

    "5.82" : Certainly you will find the most violent of people in enmity for
    those who believe (to be) the Jews and those who are Ś polytheistsŚ , and
    you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe (to
    be) those who say: We are Christians; this is because there are priests and
    monks among them and because they do not behave proudly.

    "9.30" : And the Jews say: Ś UzairŚ is the son of Allah; and the
    Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of
    their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may
    Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

    "17.111" : And say: (All) praise is due to Allah, Who has not taken a son
    and Who has not a partner in the kingdom, and Who has not a helper to save
    Him from disgrace; and proclaim His greatness magnifying (Him).

    18.1-5" : (All) praise is due to Allah, Who revealed the Book to His servant
    and did not make in it any crookedness. Rightly directing, that he might
    give warning of severe punishment from Him and give good news to the
    believers who do good that they shall have a goodly reward, Staying in it
    for ever; And warn those who say: Allah has taken a son. They have no
    knowledge of it, nor had their fathers; a grievous word it is that comes out
    of their mouths;they speak nothing but a lie. .C*1

    "19.88-92" : And they say: The Beneficent God has taken (to Himself) a son.
    Certainly you have made an abominable assertion. The heavens may almost be
    rent thereat, and the earth cleave asunder, and the mountains fall down in
    pieces, that they ascribe a son to the Beneficent God. And it is not worthy
    of the Beneficent God that He should take (to Himself) a son.


    THE KORAN ON JIHAD

    "5.33" : The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle
    and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be
    murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on
    opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for
    them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous
    chastisement,

    "8.38" : Say to those who disbelieve, if they desist, that which is past
    shall be forgiven to them; and if they return, then what happened to the
    ancients has already passed.

    "8.39" : And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion
    should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what
    they do.

    "9.5" : So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters
    wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in
    wait for them in every ambush,then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay
    the poor-rate, leave their way free to them;surely Allah is Forgiving,
    Merciful.

    "9.29" : Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor
    do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the
    religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay
    the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of
    subjection.

    "9.30" : And the Jews say: Ś UzairŚ is the son of Allah; and the Christians
    say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths;
    they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy
    them; how they are turned away!

    "9.36" : Surely the number of months with Allah is twelve months in Allah's
    ordinance since the day when He created the heavens and the earth, of these
    four being sacred; that is the right reckoning; therefore be not unjust to
    yourselves regarding them, and fight the polytheistsŚ all together as they
    fight you all together; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against
    evil).

    "9.73" : O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites
    and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the
    destination.

    "9.123" : O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to
    you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who
    guard (against evil).
    Would you like more quotes
    I have nothing against the womens movement. Especially when Im walking behind it.


  12. #12
    AngryTitusPullo's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Religious discussion split from: "My letter to the ADN" thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rush Limbaugh
    Have you ever seen what follows that passage?
    Would you like more quotes
    Sure. More would be nice. Have you actually read what it means every verse, every words, not just the translation but also the interpretation (tafsir) ? Do you know when, where or why these verses were revealed ?


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  13. #13

    Default Re: Religious discussion split from: "My letter to the ADN" thread.

    Have you actually read what it means every verse, every words, not just the translation but also the interpretation (tafsir) ?
    Their are many different interpretations as far as Im aware of. Which like those who espose that you most follow the bible literally and those who say the same about the Koran fools.
    I have nothing against the womens movement. Especially when Im walking behind it.


  14. #14
    ErikinWest's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: My letter to the ADN

    Quote Originally Posted by Rush Limbaugh
    That they did until a certain realtive of arafats came on the scene.
    Um... many Jewish people had been building up in the area of Palestine post-WW2 with the idea of Zionism. This caused tension. As the Rabbi said: Zionism created the problems (with the help of some hot headed Arabs I'll admit).

    Erik

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  15. #15

    Default Re: My letter to the ADN

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikinWest
    Um... many Jewish people had been building up in the area of Palestine post-WW2 with the idea of Zionism. This caused tension. As the Rabbi said: Zionism created the problems (with the help of some hot headed Arabs I'll admit).
    most of the jews that oppose zionism are usually the most fanatic ones,
    and zionism and the idea of the creation of israel goes way back before WWII
    I think it's time I had a talk with my kids
    I'll just tell 'em what my daddy told me
    YOU AIN'T NEVER GONNA AMOUNT TO NOTHIN'

  16. #16

    Default Re: My letter to the ADN

    No they dont worship the same god. They said that to gain converts.
    Read Honor&Glory's post.


    Its former glory
    What's so funny about that.



    What you want to take it back 700 years? How about we let the Jews restore Israel to its former glory?
    They moved out. The Muslims were forced out from their land, there is a difference.

    And again their never were any palestinians who governed these lands so I guess you want to give them back to the Turks . If we go by the first state to own it then all of Palestine belongs to Israel.
    They were still living there weren't they. It's better to have Turkey incharge of that land than Israel, they atleast know how to control it.

    Adnan

  17. #17

    Default Re: My letter to the ADN

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterAdnin
    They moved out. The Muslims were forced out from their land, there is a difference.
    Someone needs to re-read their middle eastern history. Also, are you just gonna ignore me and continue to believe hezbollah don't "hate" the jews to the point of genocide.... Or are you gonna read the quotes I provided and actually respond to them?

  18. #18
    ErikinWest's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: My letter to the ADN

    Quote Originally Posted by Caius Britannicus
    Someone needs to re-read their middle eastern history.
    While there's no doubt that it was the Arabs that attacked the Zionists, we must at least look at the the context. The Zionists were planning on annexing the Arabs, as all of them there were trying to creating a "Jewish State"!

    Erik

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  19. #19

    Default Re: My letter to the ADN

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterAdnin
    They moved out. The Muslims were forced out from their land, there is a difference
    moved out? they were kicked out, and several times. Assyria kicked them out, and later on they were kicked out agian by the roman ( this was when jews scattered all over europe and the world).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_diaspora
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews#Jews_and_migrations

    the jews back in the day fought much harder for their homeland than anything the arabs have yet to even dream of doing ( they lost some 1.4 million people in a revolt agianst the romans and then another half a million in a revolt 60 years after that). So if having ancestors that lived somewhere gives you a definitive claim to a piece of land the jews have as much of a claim to isreal than the arabs if not more.
    Last edited by the Eternal Cocoon; August 07, 2006 at 01:15 AM.

  20. #20

    Default Re: My letter to the ADN

    All I see is stick-shaking that we will be destroyed (Fundementalist's could warp that into 'the believer will destroy the unbeliever', but I see that as 'god will destroy us') and telling them to keep away from us and not be in our proximity.

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