A point about shieldwalls.

[Dan113112]

I just found this interesting video on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmaYtNW_wR8

It discusses the topic of mainly hoplite warfare. Hopefully CA takes note of when designing Greek units.

Edit: I'm not taking this guy seriously I'm just saying he has a valid point.

[Kinjo]

How can you take a guy serious that thinks you simply can just cut the guys throat in front of you with a knife? Never mind getting around his shield and armor and the fact he is trying to kill you too ... He should stick to his D&D vids

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdo5ErnXH3E

[Dan113112]

How can you take a guy serious that thinks you simply can just cut the guys throat in front of you with a knife? Never mind getting around his shield and armor and the fact he is trying to kill you too ... He should stick to his D&D vids

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdo5ErnXH3E

He was going for the guy's throat. They didn't armor the throat. Most wounds back then were armpit, neck, and groin wounds. If they're shields were pressed up against each other he would be close enough to do the deed.

[TheNasoRomaLost]

He was going for the guy's throat. They didn't armor the throat. Most wounds back then were armpit, neck, and groin wounds. If they're shields were pressed up against each other he would be close enough to do the deed.

While building it yourself and testing it out has some advantages; but he hasn't factored in that they would parry each others spears until they got into the shoving match. Besides it is easy to hide your head underneath your shield which is very large for a hoplite.

[Dan113112]

While building it yourself and testing it out has some advantages; but he hasn't factored in that they would parry each others spears until they got into the shoving match. Besides it is easy to hide your head underneath your shield which is very large for a hoplite.

This is true. I know this. I think he addressed that in the video. I think his main concern was that a lof of modern historians think that hoplites fought in a shoving match the entire battle. If that were true you'd be to close to parry spears. Spears would be useless in my opinion.You would have fought in a more Roman style if that were the case.

[TheNasoRomaLost]

This is true. I know this. I think he addressed that in the video. I think his main concern was that a lof of modern historians think that hoplites fought in a shoving match the entire battle. If that were true you'd be to close to parry spears. Spears would be useless in my opinion.You would have fought in a more Roman style if that were the case.

When things were for the most part equal the hoplite matches ended in the shoving match. There are reasons why elite spartan soldiers were so feared in ancient Greece despite using the same spears and sometimes even obsolete pre-Linothorax heavier armor.

Most hoplite warfare was done with enemies who were more or less equal however; so both sides would successfully parry.

He made a good point that they didn't want a shoving match, but to out parry your enemy you have to be either very lucky or significantly more skilled.

[UsulDaNeriak]

Actually, i guess this guy is not fully wrong.

For the late roman army, which re-introduced spears as main melee weapon, schloars have found a change in battle strategy. The roman infantery was now more defensive, tried to keep the enemy on distance and let the range fighters and cavalry do the job. One reason was to minimize losses, given the recruitment problems they had.

The classic legion was fully different and much more aggressively offensive. After throwing their pila, the romans charged the enemy for the last meters. They even used their shield as a weapon. And their gladius, was a perfect melee weapon, if very close to the enemy. A spear is not a typical infighting weapon, it works best with a bit more room.

[Lethe]

How can you take a guy serious that thinks you simply can just cut the guys throat in front of you with a knife? Never mind getting around his shield and armor and the fact he is trying to kill you too ... He should stick to his D&D vids

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdo5ErnXH3E

I've followed this guy for a few years. He started off doing ancient weapons vids and has done a lot of research. I generally find his videos pretty informative. More so than the links you posted showing a mock shield wall. I mean, it's cool, but those guys aren't trying to kill each other... it just comes off as playing.. which is what it is.

[torongill]

I've followed this guy for a few years. He started off doing ancient weapons vids and has done a lot of research. I generally find his videos pretty informative. More so than the links you posted showing a mock shield wall. I mean, it's cool, but those guys aren't trying to kill each other... it just comes off as playing.. which is what it is.

The problem here lies in the fact that The Lindbeige bases his "research" and conclusions on the mock mockfight he and his buddies do. And yeah, the links Kinjo posted are more realistic than anything I've seen in the lindbeige's videos.

There should be a TWC commandment: Thou shalt not post the lidbeige.

[Dan113112]

The problem here lies in the fact that The Lindbeige bases his "research" and conclusions on the mock mockfight he and his buddies do. And yeah, the links Kinjo posted are more realistic than anything I've seen in the lindbeige's videos.

There should be a TWC commandment: Thou shalt not post the lidbeige.

Both Kinjo's videos are mock fights. Just because Beige did a mock mock fight in this video doesn't mean he hasn't done mock fights like in Kinjo's videos. It's also dangerous to rely on reenactors as they aren't always right. I think Kinjo's point about no mans land is exactly what Beige is getting at.

[Kinjo]

I've followed this guy for a few years. He started off doing ancient weapons vids and has done a lot of research. I generally find his videos pretty informative. More so than the links you posted showing a mock shield wall. I mean, it's cool, but those guys aren't trying to kill each other... it just comes off as playing.. which is what it is.

Lloyd is a smart guy and makes some good points, but his theory on shield walls really isn't backed by anything. I only posted those vids to illustrate how a no-mans-land could form if one side was unable to break through the formation and believe that's how hoplite battles would have looked but obviously with slightly different equipment. Those reenactments are probably the closes thing we will every see to what a real melee would have looked like, if you find something better let me know but I doubt you will. The Battle of Heraclea is a perfect example of 2 battle lines clashing with surges throughout the battle attempting to break each others formation.

not Heraclea but is still an awesome pic

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[|Sith|Galvanized Iron]

not Heraclea but is still an awesome pic

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Yes, but Battle of Pydna that the picture depicts was a breakthrough done by using terrain and not a natural breakthrough.

[Dan113112]

Yes, but Battle of Pydna that the picture depicts was a breakthrough done by using terrain and not a natural breakthrough.

Didn't the phalanx lose cohesion because of terrain and their cavalry support wasn't that great either.

[Kinjo]

Yes, but Battle of Pydna that the picture depicts was a breakthrough done by using terrain and not a natural breakthrough.

I just posted that pic because its epic and you can see a no-mans-land that the sarrissa created. I know RTW had this to an extent but after that pikes went to hell.

[Asgaroth]

I completely agree with the guy.

He has many interesting points on the shield wall.

I was always against that overhead robot fighting. If they want to put it right they should put both the ovearhead and underhead animations.

[Kinjo]

When it comes to hoplite warfare/shield walls or where both sides have lots of spears I believe there would be a no-mans-land that would form between the 2 battle line with surges of charges/pushes to try to break the shield walls that would form. If those surges/pushes failed they would resume back to the other side of the no-mans-land and resume attacking at a distance with their spears. When it comes to the over hand/under hand debate I think they were both used, over hand would come in handy if you were charging trying to break the enemies shield wall i.e. attacking over the enemies shield wall and the under hand as the primary attack trying to kill somebody on the other side of the no-mans-land because of the reach advantage. Here is a vid of a SCA battle and Wolin 2011 where you can see what I'm talking about where a no-mans-land form and surges/shield charges in attempts to break through the formations. I know they are not the best examples but this how I envision how it would have been after experiencing several SCA wars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...QAre3qw#t=305s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...-WIps-0M#t=60s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yUp-jwiiUQ

[Karnil Vark Khaitan]

When it comes to hoplite warfare/shield walls or where both sides have lots of spears I believe there would be a no-mans-land that would form between the 2 battle line with surges of charges/pushes to try to break the shield walls that would form. If those surges/pushes failed they would resume back to the other side of the no-mans-land and resume attacking at a distance with their spears. When it comes to the over hand/under hand debate I think they were both used, over hand would come in handy if you were charging trying to break the enemies shield wall i.e. attacking over the enemies shield wall and the under hand as the primary attack trying to kill somebody on the other side of the no-mans-land because of the reach advantage. Here is a vid of a SCA battle and Wolin 2011 where you can see what I'm talking about where a no-mans-land form and surges/shield charges in attempts to break through the formations. I know they are not the best examples but this how I envision how it would have been after experiencing several SCA wars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...QAre3qw#t=305s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...-WIps-0M#t=60s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yUp-jwiiUQ

thx for the links, there needs to be more movies like that

[|Sith|Galvanized Iron]

I just found this interesting video on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmaYtNW_wR8

It discusses the topic of mainly hoplite warfare. Hopefully CA takes note of when designing Greek units.

Edit: I'm not taking this guy seriously I'm just saying he has a valid point.

Shield wall MUST also be available to Germanics.

[Dan113112]

Shield wall MUST also be available to Germanics.

Obviously. I hope they have the correct stance for all factions.

[Anna_Gein]

The Macedonians pushed back the Romans ranks who retreat in good order on an hill. From there they launched a successful counter attack when the Macedonians came to them by using the terrain to their advantage. You are right about their cavalry. It did not play any significant role.