Gondor - Stagnation

[griff6784]

Need some assistance on military and economic strategy. I'm on medium campaign and very hard battle. I find Harad a real tester, those Southron lancers are vicious. My problem at present is no economic growth due to incessant defensive war. I hold Cair Andros, E Osgiliath, the northern impregnable hill fort in Ithilien, Minas Morgul, Cirith Ungol and the castle on the hill in Ithilien to the south. My swan knights are currently besieging the Haradim town on the coast barad harn? I hold the small island near that ford around there too. I also took the rebel settlement far to west of Gondor and the one above Minas Tirith.

The river crossing near Cair Andros, into the lands of Mordor beyond the black gate, is well secured. That hill by the ford enables archers to massacre orcs as they try and break the militia line. Farimir has over a half stack beyond Cirith Ungol with a massive crusading Mordor army just sitting there (does not move due to presence of Faramir)

I waged a vicious war with the Rhun and Isengard crusading forces who were repelled, and with 2 harad crusading armies and a third which pushed the river crossing near Linhir. I successively regrouped after this thrust, mobilised around Minas Tirith and beat the Harad with Boromir, Aragorn, and Denethor (who heroically died. A shame because I liked the old git).

So the south is secure, with the swan knights now on the slight offensive, though Harad are moving reinforcements there which means I can't really maintain possession of barad harn.

To the north Harad pushed on Ithilien and I got involved in another bitter battle to take back the castle on the hill there in the south.

I am now considering my first real foray in Harad (i have raided and taken a town or two scorched earth), by moving south from Ithilien to the next river (with those nice easily defended bridges and that town - the name I forget).

With all this blood and guts my economy has been in and out of severe debt. Building is non-existent. I haven't even got the capacity to build Ithilien rangers yet (at 100 turns in) because my money is spent on retraining and thwarting further probes (my original Ithilien rangers are currently at Minas Morgul, still 43 of the hard gits left, and 24 of the tower guard). My current economic position is akin to the UK - flat lining as I retrain the latest round of wounded units who just took back the castle in southern Ithilien.

I may, just have got an opening to move south with Boromir and take that river line, then I can focus on the economy with surplus income from the new settlement.

I can hold off Mordor easily at the northern river crossing, but Faramir has to stay near Cirith Ungol with masses of costly troops - is there a better way of defending this region?

Furthermore, am I going to be nastily surprised with yet another declaration of war by Sauron with multiple stack Harad/Rhun/Isengard/Mordor crusading forces?

Should I attempt to mount an audacious attack on Umbar at some point?

What am I doing wrong? Is there light at the end of the tunnel?

[Macilrille]

This thread already exists in numerous incantations. Have a look here, in that thread I also link to some older and more in-depth debates about the issue. There are also several good guides in the guides section.

Actually I will ask the moderators to move this thread to its correct place.

And welcome to the Forum.

[DrDragun]

Taking a couple of the coastal cities can indeed tip the tide massively. These are huge trade moneymakers for either you or Harad. I would grab the nearby island settlement, as it is also close to a land settlement and these two can use common defensive garrison so to speak once you capture them both (also minimizes "distance to capital" unhappiness).

Remember to shoot Mumakil with flaming ballistas. Ballistas are more accurate than catapults and instant-kill a Mumakil. Killing 1-2 Mumakils will turn the remaining ones to "running amok" which means they attack friend and foe alike and they are also counted as defeated (you don't have to kill them to end the battle). Any army that includes Mumakil, just set a defensive position to buy time to attempt a few flaming ballista shots.

[griff6784]

Well I'd love to build ballistas, but my military infrastructure is woeful. I realise other people have similar posts. I'd just like more a specific assessment of my own campaign. I'm fine with you moving the thread to wherever it needs to go of course.

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

Well I'd love to build ballistas, but my military infrastructure is woeful. I realise other people have similar posts. I'd just like more a specific assessment of my own campaign. I'm fine with you moving the thread to wherever it needs to go of course.

Destroy buildings you can't use, Sack every city you capture and try to make trade agreements.

[DrDragun]

Troop upkeep can be a killer. I used to take a lot of time to march troops back for retraining. You can save time by simply marching fresh troops forward. If you drag a unit card of fresh troops onto a damaged veteran unit, the veteran unit will be retrained (this re-averages experience level however, as does regular retraining). Using this method, you can bring a single freshly recruited unit forward to replenish several damaged veterans, without incurring the expense of marching your veteran army back and forth to friendly barracks. Military units afield incur as much upkeep every 3 turns as their original price to recruit (roughly).

And ballistae really are necessary for fighting Mumakil. The alternative is spending at least 3-4 units of infantry and pelagir marines to down a single unit of Mumakil. Using flaming ballistas makes them trample their own troops.

Although if you have not applied the bugfix which makes the Mumakil training ground possible to construct, you might not have to deal with them (the building cannot be constructed in a fresh TATW 3.2 install, at least in cities, I'm not sure about citadels).

[griff6784]

I think I realised a drastic error on my part - I figured that with the binary good vs evil battle, I wouldn't have to pursue trading rights with the other "good" factions - is this not the case? How much income do you imagine I would get from trade rights with all the free peoples? I have a suspicion that my 3.2 version does not have mumakils, because I am yet to have faced them, instead the enemy have multiple units of southron lancers, enough of a chore to beat. Perhaps I should restart my campaign. Gutted to do so, but at the minute I am in debt despite having pushed south of Ithilien and onto the Haradim coast at barad harn.

[Radzeer]

Yes, you need trade agreements. Also, try to sell them your maps in every 8-10 turns to get some extra cash.
Mumakil don't arrive until later, so I'm sure your 3.2 also has them. Good luck!

[Galain_Ironhide]

Perhaps I'll give you my scenario which might be of use to you griff6784

Within the first 100 turns of my Gondor campaign, my economy sucked and I was getting hammered by Harad and Mordor, plus incidently an invasion at Minas Tirith too. So I made the decision (which also appears to be the decision of many on the forums here - reading up history) to invade Harad until they were no longer a threat.

I'm playing with MOS and expanded maps which has extra settlements so they are now down to their last 4 settlments in the far east and bottlenecked into a place where I now only have to fend any andvances from them with one okayish stack.

The decision to leave them alone after that was so I had a buffer between me and Rhun and I didn't have to worry about receiving Rhun spam. One day I'll be back there to finish the conquest eventually, as it is part of the Victory Conditions for Gondor, however for now it's time to go kick some Isengard / Dunland butt. All the whilst holding against Mordor at E.Osgiliath and anywhere else they want to attack.

Now that I am on the other side of turn 100, my economy is better, I can actually build stuff, plus I have spare forces to able to aid Rohan and the High Elves. I guess you have to blitz in order to be able to turtle later - if you want to.

The only problem I have is that I have too many Generals (some might end up on a boat that might have a little accident far out to sea - fishing trip gone wrong maybe ), which brings me to an important thing to note - Watch for how many Generals you have as their expenditure can cripple your economy.

[Aldor]

Also, try to sell them your maps in every 8-10 turns to get some extra cash.

I hear that every time but I'm against it if the faction borders/will border you. I experience more attacks when the enemy has map information. Might be just my impression though...

[magicgunnar]

What am I doing wrong? Is there light at the end of the tunnel?

Maybe you could upload your savegame, so we could have a look? At least if you play 3.2 without mods I can take a look.

[oOIYvYIOo]

Your doing well .You need to focus on one point now ,assemble all the possible forces for a hord or 2 and conquer a couple or more regions.
And watch my campaign on my youtube channel ,if it may help you .

[griff6784]

Thanks for the responses lads, I shall see about uploading my file. Could anyone estimate the increased revenue of trade rights? All i need is some money, just a little bit, to stabilise or to push on. At present I am facing Harad forces which are a touch too big to leave unchecked, ergo I can't afford to release troops to invade. My economy is now in the red, despite taking barad harn and the first town south of ithilien. What is that morder crusading force going to do, just sit there? Faramir isn't strong enough to attack, but his defence on the hillside near cirith ungol prevents them from attacking. Should I defend this pass with this strategy? Should I lure this crusading force into battle (and will there thus be no more crusading armies?)

[magicgunnar]

Thanks for the responses lads, I shall see about uploading my file. Could anyone estimate the increased revenue of trade rights? All i need is some money, just a little bit, to stabilise or to push on. At present I am facing Harad forces which are a touch too big to leave unchecked, ergo I can't afford to release troops to invade. My economy is now in the red, despite taking barad harn and the first town south of ithilien. What is that morder crusading force going to do, just sit there? Faramir isn't strong enough to attack, but his defence on the hillside near cirith ungol prevents them from attacking. Should I defend this pass with this strategy? Should I lure this crusading force into battle (and will there thus be no more crusading armies?)

Maybe your neightbors will pay you money for a trade-agreement, try it!

Debt are dangerous, the negative traits governors get when you are having debt are: Cheapskate, Miserly, Stoic. And the first two give a +2 to squalor for a governor when maxed. +4 to squalor is not something that is good for a governor. And there is no way you can avoid getting them when you have debt. There are a 4% chance every turn for each of your guys. So avoid the red numbers!

I have my saves here:
C:\Program Files (x86)\SEGA\Medieval II Total War\mods\Third_Age_3\saves
Maybe that helps?

[Galain_Ironhide]

Should I lure this crusading force into battle (and will there thus be no more crusading armies?)

well, as soon as the last crusading/invading general is dead the Invasion will finally fail. Otherwise if you leave this crusading Mordor army alive, the AI factions will always have that option to keep joining the invasion.

Kill them all !

[griff6784]

as to generals, I did not know they have upkeep costs? I use them as shock cavalry, 4 or so at least in one army

[griff6784]

To upload, where are my Third Age saved games (I use steam - located ME2TW saved games, but not Kingdoms. Sorry being thick)

[Wolfeson]

If you currently hold Barad Harn and the nearby island, I'm assuming you still have a ship or two somewhere. Try using them to move your army in this region around to siege/sack the other nearby Harad towns (there are 2-3 within easy striking distance). If you're quick (especially if you bring a catapult so you don't have to waste a turn sieging), you can move out, attack, and be back to defend before any enemy forces can take advantage. Do this a couple of times and you may get the slight boost you need to get your economy moving again.

[FC Groningen]

Partially because of this topic, I noticed I haven't played with Gondor for a long time. Haven't done a 3.2 campaign yet. Got a temporary result:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Assemble your forces from the start from Minas Tirith, including Boromir and Denethor and attack east Osgiliath right away on turn 1 or 2. Should be easy prey. Afterwards, ignore the rebel settlements around there, until Mordor takes it. Buy some barracks in Minas Tirith and Dol Amroth later, but put the rest of all your money in your economy. assemble a force in the west right away to take Annulond. Afterwards, send it to Dol Amroth where you can build up a force too. Meanwhile, have about half a stack run around Ithilien to intercept any incoming Mordor stacks and send a few reserves to make it possible to capture the settlements Mordor captures. Be very eager and agressive in attacking Mordor stacks, else they merge and become full stacks, which will be harder to deal with.

While you build up a force in Dol Amroth and keep building your economy, expect some Harad troops near Linhir near turn 15/20. You won't need many troops there first to stop them, just a few generals and a bit of support. After some more settlements are yours, like Henneth Annun, Cair Andros, Druedan village etc. carefully start to build up a bit of an army around Henneth Annun. Block the bridge west of Henneth Annun with it and see if Denethor has a shot at blitzing Minas Morgul. It has a garrison script, but plenty of small armies usually run around the place. Attack an army outside the walls to dodge the garrison script. Take Minas Morgul and then push on to Cirith Ungol. Once you've taken it in a similar way, sell the settlement to another faction while getting an alliance with it (so that faction won't attack you). I gave it to Gundabad myself; That way Mordor won't attack you from the east anymore. With about half a stack on the bridge near Henneth Annun, Mordor can't enter your lands anymore.

Meanwhile, you prepared a force in Dol Amroth. If you're ready to sail with about a fullstack on turn 21, you're on the same scedule as me. The sooner the better as Harad seriously starts to build up between turn 30 and 40. Sail for Umbar and take it asap. Dodge the garrison script if you can, otherwise just accept it. Take Vatavea right away too.

Meanwhile, Denethor is free to attack south with the assembled army he has. The troops you had near Linhir can cross the Anduin as well and go for Harondor provinces. If you're in time, Harad still shouldn't have too many troops around there, especially if you just took Umbar.

With these 3 forces on the move, your economy will be strained, but settlements will be easy to take, which will quickly "repair" your economy and will soon allow for even more troops to be recruited. The key is to keep moving and use a spy or 2 to open gates. Note that the only 2 settlements in Harad territory that have a garrison script are Umbar and Gobel Ancalimon; the rest can safely be opened by a spy or just siege equipment. If you keep moving, Harad's armies can't catch up with you. I managed to kill Harad off this way at turn 53.

edit: I've reloaded a few times only because I had a spy that died on me and once when Boromir caught a catapult shot in the face.

Rush power!

[DrDragun]

Does anyone make use of ambushes? It seems Ithilien is designed for ambush warfare but I don't know how the AI reacts to it. Will the AI ignore hidden armies? It seems the AI will *always* attack a lone general on the campaign map. Can a lone general be used as bait to path an enemy force across a hidden ambush army?