Auxiliaries (Rome and Others)

[Toho]

So I was just reading the Roman faction description and then I saw that nowhere in the description did they mention the Auxilia. I am not a historian so I am not sure by what kind of system Rome dealt with its none citizen troops but I am pretty sure rome used these people regardless of where they were from.

will CA actually go through the trouble of making the legions unique in this manner? how will this system work? will all these soldiers look different? I mean the legions raised in Rome or Gaul could not possibly be exactly like the legions raised in Egypt or Anatolia.

so basically for those people who are familiar with M2TW, I am talking about AoR, will RII be like its predecessor where the exact same soldier can be recruited all over the world or is it more specialized where the legion that you recruited actually has the same style and specialization of its region. (IE more horses available or archers or more armor or etc...)

the same could be said about other factions, not everywhere had horse archers or phalanxes, one place had better or more stuff than the other. I think it would be interesting to represent this somehow, it becomes more story driven (as CA wants it anyway) and it becomes less arcade like which I think most people want to get away from.

[Miyelir]

I like the idea of the troops looking dark skinned if recruited in africa or pale with blonde hair from scandanavia or the British Ilses. But I am not sure about making it harder to recruit cavalry in some places and better in others.

[Toho]

im not just talking about skin tone, but weaponry as well. for example roman archers are inferior to eastern archers, but if a the roman player conquers eastern provinces then he can add eastern archers, who are superior, to his legion and make his army even stronger.
I find this more interesting and it adds more strategy to the game... and it makes the battles more interesting playing with the same army over and over is not that interesting IMO.

[lemondude]

does this mean you can only recruit the "real" roman units in rome it self?

Auxiliaries are the only options else where? Seems realistic, but that would mean I almost never want to put romans in battle in a long war for fear that I won't have reinforcements if I go too deep into enemy territory.

That would really take the fun out of battles.

[Toho]

does this mean you can only recruit the "real" roman units in rome it self?

Auxiliaries are the only options else where? Seems realistic, but that would mean I almost never want to put romans in battle in a long war for fear that I won't have reinforcements if I go too deep into enemy territory.

That would really take the fun out of battles.

well no, it could work just like the M2TW culture system, once the roman player conquers it then all he has are auxilia but after a time when the roman "culture" rises in the region the more "roman" troops are more available.

so in short Roman player conquers, he has auxilia until he gets his culture spread enough in the region to make that region "Roman" and after that he unlocks his normal troops over there (perhaps with some unique abilities or looks) and he locks his auxilia troops because these people are now citizens and no longer subject states.

besides this is logical, who in their right mind would join the enemy army RIGHT AFTER they conquered you? that makes no sense and romans did not do this either.

I like the idea that any of the playable factions could recruit any kind of troop and use those kinds of tactics..... but I would also like to be able to recruit legions in Egypt.... maybe by capturing regions you could steal the technoligy and deploy that information anywhere to train troops... so once the celts capture rome they can build legionaries in Scotland bacause they have learned how to in italy. What do you think?

sounds pretty cool, and its better than spamming the same spearmen units over and over and just finish the game with the same army that you started with.
I conquered Egypt and Greece, why shouldn't I steal their tech or their people's style of war to my advantage?

[UsulDaNeriak]

besides this is logical, who in their right mind would join the enemy army RIGHT AFTER they conquered you? that makes no sense and romans did not do this either.

Of course the romans recruited defeated enemies and they did it immediately and massively!

Usually as part of the contract with the defeated tribe or king they had to supply recruits for the auxilia. Mostly complete units including their local officers. Some units have been leaded by roman centurions during republican era, larger ones by tribunes. The gallic cavalry, Caesar used in the civil war, was not just friendly Aedui. Another prominent example are the sarmatian Iazyges. After Marcus Aurelius beated them during the marcomannian wars, they had to establish and supply the Numerus in northern Britannia. Same with the italian tribes, they were beaten and had to provide auxilia (socii) immediatley. Half of Scipios army at Zama were former enemies. Some of them, not so long ago. Or look at the Batavians from northern Germany. Augustus used them already during Drusus campaign in the 1st century BC. They had to pay no tax, but had to supply troops. Augustus decided to do so, because they were known to be the most dangerous and efficient german warriors.

The idea was, to weaken the former enemies ability to fight. According to the situation and the risk, the romans deployed now these new auxilia to the other end of the world; but not always. This worked pretty well and was the regular procedure. So the recruitment-system in RTW as of today is wrong.

[Toho]

Of course the romans recruited defeated enemies and they did it immediately and massively!

Usually as part of the contract with the defeated tribe or king they had to supply recruits for the auxilia. Mostly complete units including their local officers. Some units have been leaded by roman centurions during republican era, larger ones by tribunes. The gallic cavalry, Caesar used in the civil war, was not just friendly Aedui. Another prominent example are the sarmatian Iazyges. After Marcus Aurelius beated them during the marcomannian wars, they had to establish and supply the Numerus in northern Britannia. Same with the italian tribes, they were beaten and had to provide auxilia (socii) immediatley. Half of Scipios army at Zama were former enemies. Some of them, not so long ago. Or look at the Batavians from northern Germany. Augustus used them already during Drusus campaign in the 1st century BC. They had to pay no tax, but had to supply troops. Augustus decided to do so, because they were known to be the most dangerous and efficient german warriors.

The idea was, to weaken the former enemies ability to fight. According to the situation and the risk, the romans deployed now these new auxilia to the other end of the world; but not always. This worked pretty well and was the regular procedure. So the recruitment-system in RTW as of today is wrong.

the question remains tho, were they trained like romans? were they armed like romans? the whole point im trying to make is that romans used different cultures and their warfare tactics to win.
I just dont want this to become Clone Wars: ROME II where every roman from the east to the west is exactly the same. thats boring.

[UsulDaNeriak]

the question remains tho, were they trained like romans? were they armed like romans? the whole point im trying to make is that romans used different cultures and their warfare tactics to win.
I just dont want this to become Clone Wars: ROME II where every roman from the east to the west is exactly the same. thats boring.

It depends on the era. Remember usually just about 50% of a roman army were legionairy cohorts or maniples.

When the game starts in 270 BC,
- you have standardized roman legions, wherever you are able to recruit them. Rome, Latium and colonies in Italy.
- The units of the socii (italian allies) were sometimes similar to legions but some were still different like the auxilia were.
- auxilia from non italian tribes have been different at these times (local armor, weapons, tactics, role, training and commanders)
- and there were troops from client kingdoms, which are also very special

With marian reforms nothing changed with the auxilia and after the war against the socii around 90 BC all italians became romans and served in the standardized legions.

In the next 300 years auxilia became more and more standardized and romanized; especially light infantry and standard cavalry. Some of them were not lesss heavy as the legions. So Hadrian started to recruit numeri more extensively. They had now the role of very special local troops.

So there is a lot of variety and local color in the roman army during all eras. But not amongst the legions: same equipment, same training, heck even the daily reports we know about are standardized from Egypt to Britain.

[betto]

Of course the romans recruited defeated enemies and they did it immediately and massively!

Usually as part of the contract with the defeated tribe or king they had to supply recruits for the auxilia. Mostly complete units including their local officers. Some units have been leaded by roman centurions during republican era, larger ones by tribunes. The gallic cavalry, Caesar used in the civil war, was not just friendly Aedui. Another prominent example are the sarmatian Iazyges. After Marcus Aurelius beated them during the marcomannian wars, they had to establish and supply the Numerus in northern Britannia. Same with the italian tribes, they were beaten and had to provide auxilia (socii) immediatley. Half of Scipios army at Zama were former enemies. Some of them, not so long ago. Or look at the Batavians from northern Germany. Augustus used them already during Drusus campaign in the 1st century BC. They had to pay no tax, but had to supply troops. Augustus decided to do so, because they were known to be the most dangerous and efficient german warriors.

The idea was, to weaken the former enemies ability to fight. According to the situation and the risk, the romans deployed now these new auxilia to the other end of the world; but not always. This worked pretty well and was the regular procedure. So the recruitment-system in RTW as of today is wrong.

A idea : If rome conquer batavia than rome will be able to recruit X(1,2 maybe 3) legions with batavian auxiliares in any province but batavia.

not 100% historical acurate but a good system i think.

[UsulDaNeriak]

A idea : If rome conquer batavia than rome will be able to recruit X(1,2 maybe 3) legions with batavian auxiliares in any province but batavia.

not 100% historical acurate but a good system i think.

The reverse makes sense to me. You can't recruit batavian cohorts outside of the batavian homelands. But it is a good idea to deploy them elsewhere after recruitment. But your proposal of limited numbers of units to recruit makes a lot of sense. Much more than artificial high recruitment times. The existing recruitment- system in RTW is not very appropriate for the ancient times and the way they recruited troops.


Btw, some standard auxilia could be reenforced and recruited everywhere and changed their nature this way. Especially the standard light infantry and cavalry. One exception Egypt! I don't know why, but egyptians were just allowed to serve in the fleet.

But some special troops were always reenforced from their homelands, like moorish cavalry, syrian archers and afaik the batavians, too. Especially professions, which need a decade of training, starting as childs to practize, were this way. For such elite units limited recruitment pools make more sense than recruitment buildings with recruitment times. The romans recruited them immediately, but the numbers of units were limited. This is more like the mercenary recruitment system in RTW.

[Miyelir]

I like the idea that any of the playable factions could recruit any kind of troop and use those kinds of tactics..... but I would also like to be able to recruit legions in Egypt.... maybe by capturing regions you could steal the technoligy and deploy that infomation anywere to train troops... so once the celts capture rome they can build legionaries in Scotland bacause they have learned how to in italy. What do you think?

[UsulDaNeriak]

Legions are highly standardized in terms of equipment all over the roman world. Of course you need a roman colony in Egypt, in order to recruit roman legions. No roman citizens = no legions. This was not the case in the timeframe Rome 2 will most propbaly cover. But inside Italy and some older provinces it should be possible earlier to recruit roman legions, IF you don't forget to establish a roman colony. Well, if you ignore Carthago and start invading Egypt immediately, you could recruit legions in Egypt earlier.

But you are correct, that they added auxilia, alae and later numeri, which could be culture specific.
I would prefer an AOR-system like in some of the great mods like RS, XC, IB, ...

[Sar1n]

Before the Marian reforms, the main body of Roman armies was recruited only from roman citizens of middle and higher classes. Supporting allied troops were provided by surrounding territories and were armed mostly in their traditional style. Marius opened the way into core legions to broader population. In addition to this, auxilliaries were recruited from provinces, often making use of the local affinity to certain style of warfare, for example archers were recruited, if available, from eastern provinces like Syria, while cavalry was recruited from the provinces with affinity to mounted combat...but the training and equipment was mostly similar to legionaries, probably biggest difference being the restrictions on deployment, and their origins, as they came mostly from non-citizen classes.

[AngryTitusPullo]

Regarding auxiliary (for the romans only) I would prefer them not to be recruited but gifted. Once Rome conquer a province player have the option to annex (make it a roman province) or make it a client state (vassal). Like in Shogun 2 where you choose to vassalize you'll be given a free unit. I would like this to represent the auxilia in Rome II. If player choose annex then only regular roman units recruitable from that province in time.

This will perfectly fits my plan of playing roman campaign where I only intend to annex provinces in Italy while making others client states (until the civil war).

[UsulDaNeriak]

Regarding auxiliary (for the romans only) I would prefer them not to be recruited but gifted. Once Rome conquer a province player have the option to annex (make it a roman province) or make it a client state (vassal). Like in Shogun 2 where you choose to vassalize you'll be given a free unit. I would like this to represent the auxilia in Rome II. If player choose annex then only regular roman units recruitable from that province in time.

This will perfectly fits my plan of playing roman campaign where I only intend to annex provinces in Italy while making others client states (until the civil war).

I agree to your approach for the era pre-Augustus. And this is most propably the timeframe of Rome 2. Well, 1 gifted unit per province would not cut it.

And auxila were no invention of Augustus. His military reform, just standardized, wages, careers and terms of service for auxilia and legions. The romans did use units of non-italic tribes already in republican era..

In the mid- and late republic the romans did indeed not recruit auxilia or socii. They simply demanded them. Usually based on a contract. If more needed it was the damn obligation of the tribe or client king to do his very best to field more units. So there should be a cap (softcap).

So if you conquer a territory you negotiate a contract, which is rather easy for the winner. But it usually had a price: e.g troops or taxes as the batavian example shows.

But after Augustus things about recruiting auxilia started to change over the decades. Now your model has to be extended or it will not work. But this is an issue, CA might postpone until the mighty "Empire Expansion".

[♠ Thomas Cochrane ♠]

I think there are good chances we'll see legionary cohorts from different areas, like the regimental dlc units in ETW. The problem is that then people would recruit legions from all over the empire, which just didn't happen, as HALF of the roman army was made up of non-citizen auxiliaries. This could be done by an AOR system of course, and/or by making base roman (citizen) troops really expensive, and making that price cheaper for the Italian home provinces, thus making it exorbitantly expensive to raise legions away from Rome...but still possible.

Also LestaT, your idea doesn't fit at all with how things worked IRL in the Roman age. EDIT: to clarify, the vassal/annex system is cool, I support that, just not the Auxiliary thing

[AngryTitusPullo]

Also LestaT, your idea doesn't fit at all with how things worked IRL in the Roman age. EDIT: to clarify, the vassal/annex system is cool, I support that, just not the Auxiliary thing

I'm talking about a video game, not BBC History Channel.

In any case my ideas is base on what actually happened though simplified to fit the game design. You defeat a faction. Part of the settlement, besides gold is that the defeated have to provide you units that you can use as part of your auxilia. That's what the alaes and the socii basically are,. That's what the batavians and the ubians are. They provided units not because they wanted to be Romans but because they were defeated by the Romans in the first place.

[Grimbold]

So I was just reading the Roman faction description and then I saw that nowhere in the description did they mention the Auxilia. I am not a historian so I am not sure by what kind of system Rome dealt with its none citizen troops but I am pretty sure rome used these people regardless of where they were from.

Might have something to do with the fact that the Auxilia is, shall we say, an imperial addition to the roman army, a period which only arrives almost 200 years later.

[♠ Thomas Cochrane ♠]

Might have something to do with the fact that the Auxilia is, shall we say, an imperial addition to the roman army, a period which only arrives almost 200 years later.

That's not true. The auxiliaries as we know them were a creation of Augustus, but the Allied Alae (from italian allies) formed half the armed forces of manipular legions.

[Grimbold]

That's not true. The auxiliaries as we know them were a creation of Augustus, but the Allied Alae (from italian allies) formed half the armed forces of manipular legions.

Augustus - the start of the imperial period
Allied Alae - socii troops of Italian origin
Auxilia - a term usually refered to troops recruited from regions outside of Italy. Cavalry and archer units were usually auxilia.