JUDEA

[Dan113112]

I’d love to see your evidence for Arabian Bedouin living in Judea during the 3rd – 1st C BC

All I know for sure is there are Bedouins in Israel/Israeli occupied territory today. Not sure about back then. But, if you consider the region's proximity to Bedouin peoples then it isn't too far fetched that some could have been available for hire. Plus, it's a game. I'm sure CA made at least some stuff up.

[Mamertine]

Really? So I’d has it a agues you haven’t read Flavius Josephus, were too young to have seen the Masada mini-series, etc etc? Dude, the history of the area is incredibly interesting. Name me another demographic that consistently fought major powers to reclaim self governance over such a long period and at such cost? Regardless of where you sit with modern politics, how can one claim that it is not interesting / of importance ..if not suffering from the aforementioned?

Many throughout history has fought just as hard, if not harder, and shed way more blood. The first one that comes to mind is pretty much everyone in the known world against the mongols. And the Mongols even wiped out complete civilizations like the Kara Khitai (sp). I do not recall an ancient civilization ever trying to exterminate the Jews, not even the Muslim ones. The Reconquista of Spain and Portugal I would place higher as well. The Persians were another one, too in my opinion. Judea was very interesting but they were simply revolts. They did not rebel, expand, and take over territory. And even those others did not, they made a bigger mark on the time than Judea did (like Galatia, Dacia, Baktria, etc.). And no need to reply with "well Sparta is in and they did nothing" because I agree.


But again, this is all a matter of opinion.

If it applied to another ‘tribe’ / nation why wouldn’t people want it. We have Sparta, why? ..because they were incredibly ‘important’ to the period…no, of course not.

I agree. Sparta was extremely insignificant at this time, as was Athens. Sparta is in because hundreds of millions of people know and love Sparta (based on the fiction of 300 but I digress), and it is a very smart thing to do from a business perspective. It is not historically accurate, but has no doubt helped sales. Athens is the other side to the same coin. Ask a million people about ancient Greece and those who do not say Sparta will no doubt say Athens. They are there because they are the "Fathers of Democracy", nothing more.

The other things you said are subjective and I will have to agree to disagree. But I remain by stance that it is too controversial (ADL would be all over CA and SEGA) and the Jews were not significant enough to warrant a faction when there are a limited number. If CA wants to make all factions playable including Judea, I would have no problem with that. But imo, Judea is not a top 12 (or even a top 20) faction.

[PSYCHO V]

Judea should not be included as a faction.

I believe you may have missed the first post ..

..Judea got as a fair treatment as it could.

Fair treatment = being completely ignored?

therell still be "emerging" rebel if a region revolts, like in STW2. so, i guess thatll still be.....judeans, if that happens in jerusalem.

Yer, but the rebels will just be that... 'rebels' not Judeans. They'll have a generic unrest factor that just proves to be a pain to gamers rather than representing historical fact and adding to gameplay with an interesting wild card at the junction of two major empires.

All I know for sure is there are Bedouins in Israel/Israeli occupied territory today. Not sure about back then. But, if you consider the region's proximity to Bedouin peoples then it isn't too far fetched that some could have been available for hire..

And my redheaded daughters living in Australia is evidence of indigenous demography over 2 millenia ago?
There were no Arabian Bedouins living in Judea until after the destruction of Jerusalem and subsequent expulsion of Jews. After that event there were great swathes of unpopulated areas throughout the region available to such. Prior to that, other racial groups (including Romans, Greeks, Arabians, etc ) were in evidence but represented a minority amongst the predominately Jewish population that expressed little joy in having foreigners amongst them.

Perhaps there will be an expansion in which the dawn of christianity is included, from 0 to ~300. Judea and the hesmoneans will have to be presented there.

? The age of Judean independence had long since past my friend.

Many throughout history has fought just as hard, if not harder, and shed way more blood. The first one that comes to mind is pretty much everyone in the known world against the mongols..

.

Apples and Oranges my friend. I asked for another specific demographic, not what half the planet suffered under an Empire. Yes there were lots that fought / suffered at the hands of the Roman Empire, Huns, Napoleonic France, Nazi Germany, Communist Russia, Khmer Rouge, etc etc ad naseum; ..but few that constantly waged wars of independence against foreign powers to the point of extinction.

I do not recall an ancient civilization ever trying to exterminate the Jews...

If by exterminate you mean destroy Jewish states and remove Jewish populations from the land, try the Proto-hellenic ‘Sea peoples’, Assyrians, Babylonians, Romans, etc amongst numerous other smaller regional powers that had a habit of listing the slaughter of Jewish populations on stella.

Judea was very interesting but they were simply revolts. They did not rebel, expand, and take over territory..

I presume you’ve read the first post? The revolts against the Seleucids and Romans in particular involved the expansion and taking of territory.

ADL would be all over CA and SEGA.

‘ADL’?

Where'd you get your history from? Watching reruns of Seinfeldt?

Empirical evidence .. I’d highly recommend it.




my2bob

[Salah ad Din Yusuf]

? The age of Judean independence had long since past my friend.

Tell that to Josephus and Simon bar Giora.
Yes, I realize they lost, but this is RTW2 alternate history. You can start with a minor city/ies of rebels and possibly win.

[O'Hea]

Judea is good source material for mods, but honestly I'd feel a little cheated if the CA team invested a lot of their time and labor into fleshing out a one-region emergent faction with a low chance of gaining independence and an even lower chance of keeping it. It did seem odd to me that they made Petra the regional capitol instead of Jerusalem, but Israel is too small to warrant a province of its own. Rolling it into Arabia Petraea is just an obvious choice.

[Caesar15]

I just think they should be an emergent faction, as simple as that.

[PSYCHO V]

From the last rally point, CA seem to be suggesting that one needs to conquer all areas of a province to be regarded a nation.

Which is what I was fearing with regards to Judea. It's highly unlikely we'll ever see an emerging Judea.

my2bob

[HannibalExMachina]

therell still be "emerging" rebel if a region revolts, like in STW2. so, i guess thatll still be.....judeans, if that happens in jerusalem.

[blackheartz]

By way the map is fleshed out and works, Judea got as a fair treatment as it could.

Also what @Rhomphaiaphoros said. I'd rep u if i could.

[Ursus]

Judea should not be included as a faction.

[Salah ad Din Yusuf]

Perhaps there will be an expansion in which the dawn of christianity is included, from 0 to ~300. Judea and the hesmoneans will have to be presented there.

[Radzeer]

As we all know, this is a sensitive topic. Please be careful to keep the discussion on topic.

[Post Hoc]

ADL = Anti-Defamation League

[Spajjder]

Other demographics... Sweden fought a long line of wars with Denmark, some for independence, and eventually became an empire of the North, yet they were not featured in medieval 1, or 2, and probably not mtw3 either except as emerging faction perhaps or rebels. Why are they less important?

Even if there are no written records of Beduins in Judea, they don't exacty live with other people since they are nomads move around in wasteland, which if im not misstaken there are in Judea and surrounding territories. Beduins passing by or staying for a while in Judea is not impossible at all, considering they were in surrounding areas.
It is not comparable with westerners living in Australia today.

CA hasn't denied there being a Judean faction have they? And as people has mentioned, they will be a faction if the province rebel, not unlikely with some unique unit just like in rtw 1. There are no rebels in this game as in rtw or mtw2. Rebels are factions with their own name and banner just like in sh2.

There are lots of things they have not talked about or showed or factions that are not playable that are much more important and has been featured in television series and therefore have good sales value such as, Selucids, Spartacus rebellion, Baktria. Tylis, Dacians etc etc. Just because they havn't had a rally point or specific info about the judean faction doesn't mean that it wont be featured. And no matter it will be featured because the area will likely rebel and get an emergent faction.

[PSYCHO V]

Sweden fought a long line of wars with Denmark.. in MTW.. Why are they less important?.

? So let me understand you here. You are disapointed about old titles in the series so you believe in the interests of 'fairness' we should all be disapointed with RTWII?

Even if there are no written records of Beduins in Judea, they don't exacty live with other people since they are nomads move around in wasteland, which if im not misstaken there are in Judea and surrounding territories.

The area wasn't a 'wasteland' until the Romans made it so. There were some several million inhabitants living in a very small area west of the Jordan. Archeological evidence shows significant permanent habitation throughout the area, even desolate areas were used for flocks of goats and sheep by Judean sheppards who resided in permanent Judean settlements.

Beduins passing by or staying for a while in Judea is not impossible at all, considering they were in surrounding areas..

Not impossible no, but as likely as a caravan of camel herders temporarily grazing in your back yard. This situation did however change after the Jewish Dispora / by the end of the 3rd Romano-Jewish War.

CA hasn't denied there being a Judean faction have they?

No, but they have told us there is no Judean province / no Judean mercenaries / no siegable Jerusalem but rather an ahistorical province of Nabataea full of Bedouin camel herders. ie No chance for Judea to become a nation / the wild card it was at the junction of two major empires. = less game play options.

my2bob

[Ursus]

ADDED GAMEPLAY: With the addition of this potential wild card at the very junction of two major empires, players could be afforded all sorts of additional gameplay options.

I concede that this may throw a big spanner in the works to the expansion plans of any future superpower.

To really be accurate, you would more than likely give these units added morale. Based on their faith.

[PSYCHO V]

ADDED GAMEPLAY: With the addition of this potential wild card at the very junction of two major empires, players could be afforded all sorts of additional gameplay options.

I concede that this may throw a big spanner in the works to the expansion plans of any future superpower.

To really be accurate, you would more than likely give these units added morale. Based on their faith.

Yup, would make for some interesting gameplay.

Bring on the crack Judean suicide squad

[D E C]

I don't care much about the details but I think Judea would be fun as an additional faction : )
The more, the better, emergent ones too