JUDEA

[PSYCHO V]

... you are asking CA to make mercenaries for only one region much less province.

basically giving the jews a special favor.
what does that make you think?

Special favour? ... Thureos Spears, Tarentine Cavalry, Cretan Archers, Cantabrian Cavalry, Balearic Slingers, etc etc ad naseum?

As mentioned by others here, Jewish mercenaries often fought for Hellenic Successor States. To claim that Judea was an area where one could have raised Arabian troops / Bedouin Camel Herders is just pure fiction.

my2bob

[Karnil Vark Khaitan]

Special favour? ... Thureos Spears, Tarentine Cavalry, Cretan Archers, Cantabrian Cavalry, Balearic Slingers, etc etc ad naseum?

As mentioned by others here, Jewish mercenaries often fought for Hellenic Successor States. To claim that Judea was an area where one could have raised Arabian troops / Bedouin Camel Herders is just pure fiction.

my2bob

You got a point. But I would add a mix of both.

[Mamertine]

Special favour? ... Thureos Spears, Tarentine Cavalry, Cretan Archers, Cantabrian Cavalry, Balearic Slingers, etc etc ad naseum?

As mentioned by others here, Jewish mercenaries often fought for Hellenic Successor States. To claim that Judea was an area where one could have raised Arabian troops / Bedouin Camel Herders is just pure fiction.

my2bob

Thureos was a military reform and Cantabrian was a military tactic. And no one on here is asking for a Tarantine, Cretan, or Balearic faction so your examples are moot. Hypothetically, they could also recruit surrounding units as well if they existed in game.

Galatians have a much bigger play in history and made a much larger impact. They were used as mercenaries for centuries all over the known world and are not a faction. Like I said, modern politics.

Judean slingers and/or peltasts would do the area justice. And yes, making Judea its own playable faction over so many others is more than likely rooted in special favor. I'll call a spade a spade.

[Dan113112]

Special favour? ... Thureos Spears, Tarentine Cavalry, Cretan Archers, Cantabrian Cavalry, Balearic Slingers, etc etc ad naseum?

As mentioned by others here, Jewish mercenaries often fought for Hellenic Successor States. To claim that Judea was an area where one could have raised Arabian troops / Bedouin Camel Herders is just pure fiction.

my2bob

Thureos Spears A. K. A. Thureophoroi aren't a unique or preferential mercenary. They were used throughout the Mediterranean. Many of the other units you listed were also present in RTW. Hence their inclusion. Just because units from certain regions are present and others are absent does not mean CA is anti-Semitic (like some have claimed) or are against a Judea faction.

By the way, there were and still are Arabian and/or Bedouin peoples in Israel so their inclusion as mercenaries is not fiction.

I hope your right ..but considering that Judea doesn't exist in CA's view and is only part of a fictional Greater Nabatea I don't hold much hope.



lol .. is that the best you have? Most people who make such dismissive remarks are either ignorant of the history in question or suffer from the very same bias they cite in others.

my2bob

Where did you get that idea from. They included the region in the game and it's capital. They just made it a part of a different province. My only real gripe about that is why didn't they make Jerusalem the siege battle city of that province? Why Petra? I for one am not completely ignorant about the history of the region. I just don't get why people are getting so bent out of shape over CA's decision. Sure, perhaps Judea was more important than the Iceni. The thing is that the Iceni are more widely known that ancient Judea. At least Boudicca is anyway.

Its another if the big CA mistakes and flaws by historical point if view ... They focused so much on inventing barbaric pseudohistorical development line to forget what it is , was and should be history ... I dunno who are their experts but surely seems more if a last month book refresh than serious study ... How can you even compare Iceni presence vs Judea? How to justify the total lack of superimportant cities compensated with ovscure and small shack villages in the deepa of the german forests?
Politics? Better merchandizing customers? Class discrimination based on the actual countries?

How did they invent pseudohistorical development?

Is Judea more historically important. Probably. Are they more iconic? No.

It's easy to justify the lack of "important" cities. It's a thing called gameplay. It takes precedence over history. The game is no more accurate if they included Corinth but excluded Alesia. Your logic is flawed. By your logic we should have every city known in ancient times in the game.

How is CA being discriminative?

They were considered some of the best and most reliable soldiers back then. Antiochus III regularly settled Jewish families to his frontiers to boost their defense and the Jews were among the few natives which the Seleucids armed and used in combat. For example, the Syrians and the Mesopotamians were not utilized at all.



Not surprising at all. If you start arguing about lack of detail for a faction or the complete exclusion of one, you'll be labeled a nationalist.

They may have been reliable but on a world scale they were insignificant.

To be fair, the vast majority of threads asking for certain factions are started by nationalists. At least from what I've seen. I've even seen at Dacia argument similar to this Judea argument. Many people who wanted Dacia to be playable lived in the area that Dacia once occupied.

[rudthemighty]

Mercs thats it. They dont deserve any more. It would be nice if there can be a judean revolt or something of that sort, but definitely not a full fledged faction. People on TWcenter argue if Sparta should be a playable faction!

[total relism]

The Case for Inclusion



Maccabean Revolt and Judean State (167 - 63 BC)

The fact that the Judeans managed to successfully fight and win their independence / homeland back from the rule of a huge foreign empire is a significant historical event that deserves to be included in any game that depicts the events of the period whilst claiming some semblance of historical meta-narrative / theme.

To facilitate the potential emergence of Judea, CA need only incorporate some new macro-events / political decisions like those in Shogun II. All that is needed is an increase in unrest through some of these new events / decisions during the 2nd Century BC. The player then is presented with a choice of actions that will either help ease tensions or exasperate them. Eg. some thematic choices could include:

1. The High Priest's brother has stolen the Holy Vessels, do you bring him to justice? (Actual event)
2. Citizens have assaulted a butcher selling pork in the city markets, what is your response?
3. Will you choose to elect your own High Priest?
4. Will you choose to ban cultural practices?
5. Will you choose to ban religious practices?

etc etc.

If you the player happen to control the region when the above events happen, either you'll:

• Play your cards right and you succeed in either socially engineering the region and bend it to your will, or have the choice to offer them limited autonomy (vassalage) or full autonomy (alliance).
• Play your cards wrong and you have a war of liberation / Independence on your hands, which if successful / captures territory, becomes the state of Judea

To have Judea so depicted would offer the player a whole string of new gameplay options to consider, a potential new faction to deal with and the addition of interest to an otherwise monochromatic region.
Further, a hitherto ignored piece of history would now be depicted.

Late Judean Heavy Cavalry

Some of the prominent battles of the Jewish War of Independance:

• Battle of Wadi Haramia (167 BC)
• Battle of Beth Horon (166 BC)
• Battle of Emmaus (166 BC)
• Battle of Beth Zur (164 BC)
• Siege of Dathema (163 BC)
• Battle of Beth Zechariah (162 BC)
• Battle of Adasa (161 BC)
• Battle of Elasa (160 BC)

Leaders

[Update: 20130714] Unfortunately it appears Judea / Judeans will not be include.

CA will not afford Judea its own territory but rather include it as part of Arabic Nabatea and fill it with Arabian mercenaries and Bedouin Camel Herders. As such, it is expected that it will not make an appearence as the Judeans would likely have to conquer half of the Arabian Sinai to meet the requirements of state.

my2bob

love the post, agreed.

[Arokel]

As has been said before it would be great to see them as an emergent faction but nothing more.

[Arcani 4 Ever]

this idea would make sense if Judea was a province with 2 or 3 regions...but Judea is a region of Nabatea on Rome II and it's already under the rule of Egypt.

So i highly doubt a Judea faction will be in-game

[Andreius Pretorianus]

no one cared about the jews back then.They were insignifiant(not like today).

ALSO,they weren t the only people living in judea you know...And why should the jews be the only ones who recieve special events,in comprasion to their unimportant rank among those times?I can think of a dozen more far worthy factions that should recieve their own special events like the dacian tribes(who also had a huge rebellion in 116 against the romans).

So let s better focus on civilizations that actually made a difference back then,and were indeed important ok?

[Mamertine]

no one cared about the jews back then.They were insignifiant(not like today).

ALSO,they weren t the only people living in judea you know...And why should the jews be the only ones who recieve special events,in comprasion to their unimportant rank among those times?I can think of a dozen more far worthy factions that should recieve their own special events like the dacian tribes(who also had a huge rebellion in 116 against the romans).

So let s better focus on civilizations that actually made a difference back then,and were indeed important, ok?

Agreed. Most people want them in for the same reason that they will not be included, modern politics. It has been said before, Judea deserves about one or two mercenary units and that would do it. Yes there was a rebellion, but how many hundreds of others were there that no one suggesting get a faction? Besides, there are dozens of other factions that are currently unplayable that should get more attention.

[PSYCHO V]

They listed all of the current factions on the interactive map. There's about 115. CA said there'd be more than that. Can't remember the exact number. So, I'm guessing there'll be emergent factions as well.

I hope your right ..but considering that Judea doesn't exist in CA's view and is only part of a fictional Greater Nabatea I don't hold much hope.

Agreed. Most people want them in for the same reason that they will not be included, modern politics..

lol .. is that the best you have? Most people who make such dismissive remarks are either ignorant of the history in question or suffer from the very same bias they cite in others.

my2bob

[Mamertine]

lol .. is that the best you have? Most people who make such dismissive remarks are either ignorant of the history in question or suffer from the very same bias they cite in others.

my2bob

Lol, is that the best you have? a condescending attitude and name calling? I'm well aware of their history and my opinion stands that it is based on modern politics. If the same circumstances and history were applied to another tribe no one would be asking for them as an independent faction to this current extent. Other factions were more important and did not make the cut. I see no reason to give preferential treatment to Judea.

And calling me ignorant to history when you were comparing Judea to a military reform and a military tactic? THAT is laughable.

Just mod it on or something if you want it that much, no big deal.

[Manuel I Komnenos]

no one cared about the jews back then.They were insignifiant(not like today).

They were considered some of the best and most reliable soldiers back then. Antiochus III regularly settled Jewish families to his frontiers to boost their defense and the Jews were among the few natives which the Seleucids armed and used in combat. For example, the Syrians and the Mesopotamians were not utilized at all.

lol .. is that the best you have? Most people who make such dismissive remarks are either ignorant of the history in question or suffer from the very same bias they cite in others.

Not surprising at all. If you start arguing about lack of detail for a faction or the complete exclusion of one, you'll be labeled a nationalist.

[savingstone]

no one cared about the jews back then.They were insignifiant(not like today).

ALSO,they weren t the only people living in judea you know...And why should the jews be the only ones who recieve special events,in comprasion to their unimportant rank among those times?I can think of a dozen more far worthy factions that should recieve their own special events like the dacian tribes(who also had a huge rebellion in 116 against the romans).

So let s better focus on civilizations that actually made a difference back then,and were indeed important ok?

I would strongly disagree...the reason to include Iudae, at least as an emergent faction, is the fact that they actually defeated the Seleucids beginning in 165 BCE and established an independent monarchy by 142 BCE, and the Roman Senate recognized its autonomy in 139 BCE...it was only by 63 BCE that Roman intervention in internal politics reached a level that effectively erased any autonomy Hasmonean Iudea had. Vespasian and Titus finally sacked Jerusalem in 70 CE after a full scale revolt starting in 66 CE was quashed. However in 132 CE, during the Third Jewish-Roman War, Emperor Hadrian had to call in reinforcements under General Sextus Julius Severus to crush the initially successful rebellion in 135 CE. The Bar Kokhbah Revolt resulted in large Roman casualties - 40,000 - 60,00 men between several legions, but even larger Jewish losses estimated to number around 500,000 Iudeans. Only then was the region renamed to Palestina, Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina, purportedly in order to erase any remembrance of the overly rebellious Iudeans...

(BTW I agree the Dacians should also be included for their large battles with Trajan etc)

Check out Cassius Dio and Josephus for more contemperaneous historical accounts

[PROMETHEUS ts]

Its another if the big CA mistakes and flaws by historical point if view ... They focused so much on inventing barbaric pseudohistorical development line to forget what it is , was and should be history ... I dunno who are their experts but surely seems more if a last month book refresh than serious study ... How can you even compare Iceni presence vs Judea? How to justify the total lack of superimportant cities compensated with ovscure and small shack villages in the deepa of the german forests?
Politics? Better merchandizing customers? Class discrimination based on the actual countries?

[Spajjder]

Have they even said that they wont include it? They said all factions will have dilemmas etc, so maybe its included in a way you describe, they just havn't featured it yet as it is one of many historical events or dilemmas. Either way, with the inclussion of this game mechanic someone should be able to mod it in eventually.

Im just afraid CA will get some kinda critique if its in the game for the player being able to kill jews in a similar manner as far cry 2 enemies was 90 % white guys because otherwise it would be racist.

[Jungle Rhino]

At the risk of almost agreeing with Prometheus I feel the Jewish rebellion is probably far more significant than the Iceni rebellion.

BUT Creative Assembly are not based in Israel...

Also has a Jewish revolt actually been ruled out? CA have said they are planning to have some scripted type events happen. Given that the Jewish people were I suppose a 'permanent sub-culture' in that region it wouldn't be unrealistic to see a Jewish rebellion regardless of who is in control at the time.

[Rhomphaiaphoros]

[Looks at thread title, thinks to himself: "this should be good..."]

Seriously though, I agree with the people who say that Judaea is represented well enough in the game. We have a region there, with the city, Jerusalem, in it. Most likely there is also going to be an emergent Judaea faction if the owner of the region treats it badly (like any other region/population - I see no reason for the Judaeans to be an exception). This is enough, I honestly don't see why the Judaeans should deserve anything more than this.

Regarding the "fictional greater Nabataea" and Judaea deserving its own province... I disagree. If it had its own province, then that province would need at least one more region added to it, right? So, what settlement should we add there? I think all of the important ones in the surrounding lands are already represented in the game. Or are you suggesting that we should cut a region from Syria or Nabataea, so that we could make this province of Judaea a reality? I don't think this would make much sense, as the province borders in this part of the map make perfect sense currently. Besides, the only one we could sensibly cut from Nabataea is the one with Petra in it, so this action would result in 1) Petra losing its province capital status, which I disagree with, and 2) Nabataea losing its capital, meaning we should make one of the smaller remaining ones a province capital, which I disagree with as well. I'm fully content with the current representation of this part of the map.

Judaean mercs or local units... with those, I could actually agree with, but I don't think they're necessary to be frank. The OP complained about there being many Hellenistic merc units and no Jewish ones - but didn't the Jews fight using mostly the same equipment and tactics as their Hellenic overlords? I mean, even if they did fight as their own, separate units, can someone explain to me what exactly is so different about Jewish Thureophoroi when compared to "proper" Greek Thureophoroi? It's the same unit no matter where the men are drawn from, and as much as I don't want to accuse the OP of anything, this is the part where I'm beginning to think there's some sort of agenda behind this thread. I hope I'm wrong here, though.

Judaea deserving to be a playable faction... hell no, at least not yet. I sincerely think that there's currently at least about 30 more important factions on the map, which are unplayable at the moment. Besides, we have to take into account that the home region of this supposed faction is controlled by another faction (Egypt) at the start of the game; so I don't really think it would be sensible to start changing region ownership only for the sake of getting the Judaeans as playable, especially when it would conflict with the historical situation. So frankly, I just can't find any sympathy for this cause, sorry.

About Judaeans deserving their very own, unique and special campaign scenario somewhat later in time where they are independent and playable... I respond to this with an even stronger hell no. They are not that special or important faction to deserve this kind of attention. Although, should the "about 30" factions I mentioned get the same treatment before that, then I see no harm in the Judaeans getting it too - it would just be one campaign scenario in the list of many, one which I personally wouldn't ever touch.

Lastly, about the supposed influence or "importance" of the Judaeans in antiquity. Yes, they served as soldiers for other peoples; yes, they were notorious for causing, in game terms, public order problems; and yes, there were revolts as well. But let's do be honest, shall we - TW games are all about conquering other peoples and creating empires, but I can't recall the Judaeans doing these kinds of things. They never had a real "empire" to speak of, or even any actual imperial ambitions, during this time period. Instead, the Jews were just a rather insignificant people who were but a pawn in the conquering game of the major powers of the era, such as Persians, Hellenes and Romans. Considering all this, the current portrayal of the area and its people is entirely reasonable, there's absolutely no need to change that.

To sum up (and to repeat what I said earlier): I really, honestly, sincerely don't see any reason for why Judaea should deserve any more special attention than what it has gotten so far. I think there's more important/relevant/influential factions to lobby for in getting that attention - we could start from the ones who actually had the capability to either conquer others (like the Galatians), or at least credibly defend their independence for some time (like the Celtiberians).



@Mamertine & Dan113112: Good posts, repped.

[PSYCHO V]

its seems we can only dream for judea as revolt event on rome II, its shame as it is easy to add to the game, and would make this game so realistic even more.

Yup, it would be awesome to have such a wild card at the junction of the Seleucid and Ptolemaic Empires. Imagine the subterfuge opportunities!

I feel the Jewish rebellion is probably far more significant than the Iceni rebellion. .

True

Also has a Jewish revolt actually been ruled out? CA have said they are planning to have some scripted type events happen. Given that the Jewish people were I suppose a 'permanent sub-culture' in that region it wouldn't be unrealistic to see a Jewish rebellion regardless of who is in control at the time.

I hope your right but given that CA have made Judea a fictional province of Arabian Nabataea, where only Arabian units and Bedouin Camel Herders reside I can’t see how they’ll pull that off

Is Judea more historically important. Probably…. why didn't they make Jerusalem the siege battle city of that province? Why Petra?

Exactly!

Are they (Judea) more iconic? No… It's a thing called gameplay. It takes precedence over history.

Well they'll never be (‘iconic’) whist being ommitted from historical media. The siege of Jerusalem is one of the major sieges of antiquity, why diminish that for a relative minor expedition against Petra? How does that make for better ‘gameplay’?

By the way, there were Bedouin peoples.. in Israel so their inclusion as mercenaries is not fiction.

I’d love to see your evidence for Arabian Bedouin living in Judea during the 3rd – 1st C BC

.. condescending attitude and name calling?

Mamertine .. easy there tiger. I’d suggest reading through your post again.

.. I'm well aware of their history and my opinion stands that it is based on modern politics.

Really? So I’d has it a agues you haven’t read Flavius Josephus, were too young to have seen the Masada mini-series, etc etc? Dude, the history of the area is incredibly interesting. Name me another demographic that consistently fought major powers to reclaim self governance over such a long period and at such cost? Regardless of where you sit with modern politics, how can one claim that it is not interesting / of importance ..if not suffering from the aforementioned?

.. If the same circumstances and history were applied to another tribe no one would be asking for them as an independent faction to this current extent.

? I believe you may be missing the wood through the trees friend. Can you see my concern here?

If it applied to another ‘tribe’ / nation why wouldn’t people want it. We have Sparta, why? ..because they were incredibly ‘important’ to the period…no, of course not. During the period of RTWII they were has-beens. We have them because it is publicly known through media that some hundreds of year prior they made a name for themselves fighting for their independence against huge odds. Same for Athens, Iceni, etc etc. So why the hell do we ignore Judea?

Just mod it on or something if you want it that much, no big deal.

And that achieves what exactly? Assuaging some personal desire to white wash a section of history?

As a passionate lover of history, I can not abide revisionism. I’m a purest that believes history deserves to be treated as a science not impressionist art. I detest when political correctness dictates what the people can and can’t see. How else are we as a race, to learn from the past when it is constantly vetted, culled, re-packaged, re-branded and sanitized? No, it must be told in its entirety, the good the bad and the ugly.

Other factions .. did not make the cut..

True, but I would argue few were more important. The Judeans wrested independence from the Seleucids (a major power at the time) and then lost it after several bloody wars with Rome. The Romans themselves thought it no small thing and made monuments (in Rome) to celebrate the triumph. The same may not be said for most other vanquished foes.

my2bob

[Toho]

I’d love to see your evidence for Arabian Bedouin living in Judea during the 3rd – 1st C BC

we can ask the same question about the jews, there has been no archaeological proof of what the jews say and think was in Judea and Jerusalem and until they do it is pure fiction.