JUDEA

[rudthemighty]

It's mainly the Jewish people I see lobbying for a Jewish faction, I think partly to get recognition for the modern Jewish state. I can see how the Jews would cause lower public unrest and in case of a revolt form an own nation, it is however very unlikely it's a longlived nation. Jews have always been the cause of trouble, they didn't necessarily do anything wrong, their mere existance troubled most of their rulers.

My thoughts exactly. Compared to the other major factions Judea is insignificant, however some Jewish units / mercs would have been a nice touch.

[Ariovist]

Well, but these jews have caused more trouble over the first 2 centuries AD than all german tribes together. I remember at least 3 wars against them. Vespasian had 7 legions to deal with them. This was double the size of the garrison in Britannia. So I say, the jews are very important, more important than Spartacus.

Well - that was a hillarious statement...
Perhaps a little reading about the germanic wars would help.
I'm not talking about the Clades Variana for example, there were so many costly armed conflicts more.
Germanicus Campaigns which were by no means the success the Romans told to themselves, the Batavi uprising, the lenghty Marcomannic wars to name just a few.

About the faction Judea, i think a emergent faction would fit most.

[UsulDaNeriak]

Well - that was a hillarious statement...
Perhaps a little reading about the germanic wars would help.

I knew you guys would love this statement

Perhaps i should have been more precise. Of course the romans lost 3 legions against Arminius 3 AD. But after 16 AD, a long period of low trouble with the germans started. The war against the Chatti was rather short and easy. There was also some trouble Domitian had with them during his Dacian campaign. But the real trouble with the germans started with the Marcoman wars end of the 2nd century AD and later. But thats not the phase I am talking about. In the era between Varus and Marcus Aurelius the romans had perhaps less trouble with the germans than with the Jews. And it was not just the war of Vespasian against them. During Hadrians reign there was the next revolt. Than we had more than one jewish revolt in Alexandria and other cities.
There are some more regions, which are heavily underestimated like northern Spain and Cappadocia. It was not all about germans.

[Ariovist]

I knew you guys would love this statement

Perhaps i should have been more precise. Of course the romans lost 3 legions against Arminius 3 AD. But after 16 AD, a long period of low trouble with the germans started. The war against the Chatti was rather short and easy. There was also some trouble Domitian had with them during his Dacian campaign. But the real trouble with the germans started with the Marcoman wars end of the 2nd century AD and later. But thats not the phase I am talking about. In the era between Varus and Marcus Aurelius the romans had perhaps less trouble with the germans than with the Jews. And it was not just the war of Vespasian against them. During Hadrians reign there was the next revolt. Than we had more than one jewish revolt in Alexandria and other cities.
There are some more regions, which are heavily underestimated like northern Spain and Cappadocia. It was not all about germans.

First of all your statement is just wrong.
Second, i have not the slightest clue what you mean with "you guys". Perhaps it shoul be funny, but the language barrier hinders me to understand it then.

The "trouble" with germanic tribes as you call it is a understatement to say it politely.
Also in your last post you seem to forgot the Batavian rebellion which was very dangerous, because it spread to parts of Gaul.
The wars against the Chatti didn't seemed easy as the manpower the roman army had to muster was large.

The only part i agree with you is that "is not all about the Germans", as it was your rather pointless comparison between the danger the germanic tribes in comparison to the jewish rebellion caused in two centuries AD.

As you mentioned the.number of legions that were necessary to end the jewish rebellion, just compare it to the number of legions Germanicus had to bring and he definately didn't fulfilled the greater part of the roman war goals.

Nonetheless, the jewish rebellion is a very interesting part of this timeframe, but should not qualify the Jews as a starting faction.
I can only see them as an emergent faction to come back to the talk about the game.

[UsulDaNeriak]

I can only see them as an emergent faction to come back to the talk about the game.

Sure, playable faction does not make too much sense, if just 8 in total.

[Captain Arrrgh!]

Well, but these jews have caused more trouble over the first 2 centuries AD than all german tribes together.

Where'd you get your history from? Watching reruns of Seinfeldt?

[John ''True Grit'' Wayne]

Hold on Toho Germany Britain Gaul Spain Africa and the Middle East all suffered at the hands of the Roman army but we have to tip toe around Jewish people?
The Maccabite rebellion was a glorious revolution of bravery for Jews against the mighty Romans.We had Jesus appearing.We had so many great battles.
Surely the Jewish people will be happy to play as Jewish warriors?I have seen Jews try to mod in their units into total war games on this very forum so the desire is there.

these events are really touchy with the Jewish people

prove this with a source that they are touchy about their brave rebellion against Roman rule.They celebrate the men who fought especially the ones who poisoned themselves instead of getting captured on the mountain.

[NRohirrim]

The Maccabite rebellion was a glorious revolution of bravery for Jews against the mighty Romans.We had Jesus appearing.We had so many great battles.
Surely the Jewish people will be happy to play as Jewish warriors?I have seen Jews try to mod in their units into total war games on this very forum so the desire is there.
prove this with a source that they are touchy about their brave rebellion against Roman rule.They celebrate the men who fought especially the ones who poisoned themselves instead of getting captured on the mountain.

False, false, false - triple false. Romans were hundreds miles/km from Palestina at the time of Maccabean rebels.

[The Norseman]

Interesting.

Can you post some screens of their regions during that period? Just curious how far their land stretched.

[PSYCHO V]

Interesting.

Can you post some screens of their regions during that period? Just curious how far their land stretched.

Sure, playable faction does not make too much sense, if just 8 in total.

Agree, I'm not suggesting it warrants inclusion as one of the 8 main faction focuses, but I would like to see it depicted. If there is an alternate later campaign start date, then maybe make it one of the minor playable factions?

I'm curious how CA deal with them when they are added in the game, because they were the guerilla warriors and they mostly haven't had any battles on open field.

I have to disagree. Yes the majority of the war consisted of guerilla operations, but there were several significant open field battles.

It's mainly the Jewish people I see lobbying for a Jewish faction, I think partly to get recognition for the modern Jewish state.

Lol .. I'm not Jewish .. and funnily enough it is sentiment like this ..albeit laced with more vitriol, that shut discussion down on the .com. As a lover of history, I find that tragic.

Guys, please!! This is history, please don't drag this into a debate about modern politics.


my2bob

[UsulDaNeriak]

Agree, I'm not suggesting it warrants inclusion as one of the 8 main faction focuses, but I would like to see it depicted. If there is an alternate later campaign start date, then maybe make it one of the minor playable factions?

Sure, an expansion about the 1st and 2nd century AD would be perhaps too peaceful for some decades, without an important jewish faction. But I doubt, CA will cover this era by an expansion. Perhaps we will see smaller DLCs about the german campaign from Drusus to Germanicus with a smaller and more detailed map. Same with Claudius invasion of Britain. Then we have Trajans campaign which is also rather focused on 2 regions and a rather short timeframe. So I expect a DLC with focused map and factions to cover the jewish war(s), not an expansion covering the timeframe of the 1st/2nd century.

The real empire-wide mess started in the 3rd century, perhaps with Lucius Verus parthian campaign and the following marcoman wars in the late 2nd century. From here on a Barbarian Invasion expansion (not DLC) with multiple starting dates makes sense to me.

[Xuande]

Sure, an expansion about the 1st and 2nd century AD would be perhaps too peaceful for some decades, without an important jewish faction. But I doubt, CA will cover this era by an expansion. Perhaps we will see smaller DLCs about the german campaign from Drusus to Germanicus with a smaller and more detailed map. Same with Claudius invasion of Britain. Then we have Trajans campaign which is also rather focused on 2 regions and a rather short timeframe. So I expect a DLC with focused map and factions to cover the jewish war(s), not an expansion covering the timeframe of the 1st/2nd century.

The real empire-wide mess started in the 3rd century, perhaps with Lucius Verus parthian campaign and the following marcoman wars in the late 2nd century. From here on a Barbarian Invasion expansion (not DLC) with multiple starting dates makes sense to me.

They could make a "Rise of Vespasian" DLC campaign, starting in 66 and covering the Eastern Mediterranean.

You would start the campaign as one of various Roman "factions" (actually commands or governorships : for instance Vespasian or Mucianus) or as the Jewish rebels. Depending on your progress in the campaign, it would trigger the fall of the Julio-Claudian Dynasty in Rome and a civil war within the Roman world. As Vespasian, you would have to send part of your army against the Roman usupers while securing your holdings in the Middle East. As the Jews, you would have to take the opportunity of this civil war to get some kind of independance or autonomy.

That could be interesting. And the campaign's finale, with the Eastern veterans facing the Western veterans could provide the gamer with an interesting "climax".

PS: I have no Jewish background.

[lolIsuck]

Lol .. I'm not Jewish .. and funnily enough it is sentiment like this ..albeit laced with more vitriol, that shut discussion down on the .com. As a lover of history, I find that tragic.

Guys, please!! This is history, please don't drag this into a debate about modern politics.


my2bob

I did say most, this doesn't mean all. I was responding at Toho who said that this is touchy with Jewish people. The last part was pretty unnecessary but I had to add it. I didn't go any further on it and agreed with you that it would be pretty cool and historically accurate.

[Moros]

Guys, please!! This is history, please don't drag this into a debate about modern politics.


my2bob

It is not about history. It is about a story, a tradition that is told most famously in Macc. I and Macc. II that recently has seriously been discredited (see also my previous post). I don't see how local tension between an upper hellenized social class and lower more religious class should have a faction per se as it's outcome. Nor how it would be relevant to a playable faction's gameplay decisions. The Hasmoneans only became independent at 110 BC as well. If anything this event would/should in the game merely be seen as a province going rebel as the controlling faction became to weak due to external threats and internal strife. Which has nothing to do with the Iudeans themselves.

The case for a faction that is anything more than other standard rebel factions or minor province factions would be weird and not history inspired. Of course if most provinces/regions/... get a somewhat worked out yet unplayable faction then it would be okay. Otherwise it'd be corrupting history.

[John ''True Grit'' Wayne]

I remember people making a mod about the Jewish kingdom and they made units.And I suggested Moses as a unit and Rome showing up and they wanted to do these things in their mod.I do not know if they completed the mod but it showed a desire to have these battles.Ireland for eample is always getting owned by England and Britain but I still love Irish units showing up in these games.It is a game and meant to be fun.

[athanaric]

And I suggested Moses as a unit

Yay! He'll be able to lead some naval invasions, without even needing a navy

[The Norseman]

Uhm Moses like a unit? Let me have Sauron! Scratch that, I choose you Gandalf!

[Vioras]

A documentary of the Maccabean revolt. The story of the maccabees is very intersting, I advise everyone to take a look at them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJWIgVBDkfo

I'm curious how CA deal with them when they are added in the game, because they were the guerilla warriors and they mostly haven't had any battles on open field.

[Toho]

A documentary of the Maccabean revolt. The story of the maccabees is very intersting, I advise everyone to take a look at them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJWIgVBDkfo

I'm curious how CA deal with them when they are added in the game, because they were the guerilla warriors and they mostly haven't had any battles on open field.

I dont know who or which organization made this documentary but it is so inaccurate and biased that it blows my mind.

Seleucid emperor racist against jews because they are jews, renaming Jerusalem Antioch (LOLWUT?), the temple mount being the most complex extraordinary piece of engineering in history and every historian are either religious historians or Rabbis.

thats like getting a Mullah to talk about Christianity.

I stopped watching after 10 mints, why would you post this nonsense?

[Kinjo]

Judea will most likely be an emergent non-playable faction, it should be a hot bed of religious unrest that is very difficult to control and convert. I wouldn't mind seeing the Maccabean revolt as a sort of scripted event which is lead by the talented Judah Maccabee who would be a master of ambushes and guerrilla warfare. The problem with generic rebellions they are simply just that and don't really have any significances or character worth mentioning. While generic rebellions should still exist on occasions the major ones should be unique historical events with historical characters like Spartacus and Judah Maccabee that are spawned with some formidable armies.

I know some are against scripted events but to really capture the essence of these types of major events there has to be some scripting behind them. These are the things that was missing from the original RTW that would have only added to the game, RTW had one of the worst rebel systems to date imo. That said I wouldn't mind seeing Spartacus and Judah Maccabee having their own custom ui portraits and custom character models either.