JUDEA

[PSYCHO V]

The Case for Inclusion



Maccabean Revolt and Judean State (167 - 63 BC)

The fact that the Judeans managed to successfully fight and win their independence / homeland back from the rule of a huge foreign empire is a significant historical event that deserves to be included in any game that depicts the events of the period whilst claiming some semblance of historical meta-narrative / theme.

ADDED GAMEPLAY: With the addition of this potential wild card at the very junction of two major empires, players could be afforded all sorts of additional gameplay options.

To facilitate the potential emergence of Judea, CA need only incorporate some new macro-events / political decisions like those in Shogun II. All that is needed is an increase in unrest through some of these new events / decisions during the 2nd Century BC. The player then is presented with a choice of actions that will either help ease tensions or exasperate them. Eg. some thematic choices could include:

1. The High Priest's brother has stolen the Holy Vessels, do you bring him to justice? (Actual event)
2. Citizens have assaulted a butcher selling pork in the city markets, what is your response?
3. Will you choose to elect your own High Priest?
4. Will you choose to ban cultural practices?
5. Will you choose to ban religious practices?

etc etc.

If you the player happen to control the region when the above events happen, either you'll:

• Play your cards right and you succeed in either socially engineering the region and bend it to your will, or have the choice to offer them limited autonomy (vassalage) or full autonomy (alliance).
• Play your cards wrong and you have a war of liberation / Independence on your hands, which if successful / captures territory, becomes the state of Judea

To have Judea so depicted would offer the player a whole string of new gameplay options to consider, a potential new faction to deal with and the addition of interest to an otherwise monochromatic region.
Further, a hitherto ignored piece of history would now be depicted.

Late Judean Heavy Cavalry

Some of the prominent battles of the Jewish War of Independance:

• Battle of Wadi Haramia (167 BC)
• Battle of Beth Horon (166 BC)
• Battle of Emmaus (166 BC)
• Battle of Beth Zur (164 BC)
• Siege of Dathema (163 BC)
• Battle of Beth Zechariah (162 BC)
• Battle of Adasa (161 BC)
• Battle of Elasa (160 BC)

Leaders

[Update: 20130714] Unfortunately it appears Judea / Judeans will not be include.

CA will not afford Judea its own territory but rather include it as part of Arabic Nabatea and fill it with Arabian mercenaries and Bedouin Camel Herders. As such, it is expected that it will not make an appearence as the Judeans would likely have to conquer half of the Arabian Sinai to meet the requirements of state.

my2bob

[Kryptóforos]

Interesting to say the least.
I have to confess that I know nothing about them (shame on me)
The names sound really greek or roman though.
Can they be considered as a full nation / full faction in the game or just an anecdotical group of people. I wont reply to that question by lack of knowledge.
+ rep to you for bringing such an original discussion in the boards

[John ''True Grit'' Wayne]

I love this idea.

[Miyelir]

I suppose it only makes sense for them to have the posiblity of emerging the same way factions emerged in Napoleon total war.

1. Low public order for 3 turns maks a revolt and then the revolt army needs to take the capital (by the way I always found it weird how unhappy peasents mannaged to become hardened warriors with amazingly expensive weapons out of nowere in Napoleon total war, makes more sense for them to be non veterans with basic equipment)
2. Reagion is conquered by another faction and the conquerer gets to choose if they liberate that region and give it self governace.

Sorry for any typos

[CowboysandRomans]

The outcomes could be random like in Shogun 2, as in making compromises could have a chance that you'd either please the Judeans or encourage them to demand more and fight you anyway, or try to subdue them and get what historically happened or they'd bend to your will (for the time being)

[Moros]

First of all recently it has been seriously questioned whether there was actually such a big revolt that featured numerous battles and was won by military accomplishes. See John Ma's very recent paper. It makes a rather strong case.

Also the real cause of the rebellion was not the actions of Antiochos IV, but rather internal strife between hellenophile jews who wanted to make a polis out of Jerusalem, and the more conservative and religious jews. One which was not only a ideological problem, but had quite a social aspect as well. There was always going to be some sort of conflict, but one that had little to do with their conquerors and one that could only poorly be transformed into the game. Also the way the conflict would have went and in what form it would have taken place could have been very different depending on quite a few things.

There is most likely a century between this "revolt" and the likely starting date. I'd not be a fan of this possible feature. Especially as if it would be one of the eight playable factions.

[Toho]

a game where you can play as the romans and slaughter the jews in Jerusalem? yea it would never happen...

[Darth_Revan]

a game where you can play as the romans and slaughter the jews in Jerusalem? yea it would never happen...

While I'd love for Judea to be included in the game for the sake of historical accuracy, I have to agree with you. People would be up in arms accusing CA and SEGA of antisemitism, but sacking every other settlement would be okay.

Maybe The Jewish Wars narrated by Josephus could be a dlc.

[Huberto]

Judea will be one of many faction DLCs.

There will be a ton of faction DLCs sold separately for this game.

Book it.

[PSYCHO V]

*sigh* .. no mention of Judea

Judea will be one of many faction DLCs.

Book it.

Hope you're right

[Toho]

*sigh* .. no mention of Judea



Hope you're right

Jerusalem is owned by the Egyptians and who ever conquers it from them.
maybe emergent but playable? highly unlikely.

[TuranianGhazi]

a game where you can play as the romans and slaughter the jews in Jerusalem? yea it would never happen...

Would be too controversial prolly. Even though it would be kewl to see an emergent Judea or liberate Judea, the Anti-Defamation League would be all over that before the game even shipped.

[Engie]

I like this idea, I guess it would work like emergent factions in Empire/Napoleon

+rep

[Miyelir]

I agree I would not want it as one of the 8. But like past games emergent factions have been modded into playability.

[UsulDaNeriak]

a game where you can play as the romans and slaughter the jews in Jerusalem? yea it would never happen...

Well, but these jews have caused more trouble over the first 2 centuries AD than all german tribes together. I remember at least 3 wars against them. Vespasian had 7 legions to deal with them. This was double the size of the garrison in Britannia. So I say, the jews are very important, more important than Spartacus.

[Toho]

Well, but these jews have caused more trouble over the first 2 centuries AD than all german tribes together. I remember at least 3 wars against them. Vespasian had 7 legions to deal with them. This was double the size of the garrison in Britannia. So I say, the jews are very important, more important than Spartacus.

more than Germans? how many legions did rome lose because to the jews compared to the germans?

anyways what I said above was more about "real life consequences" of adding this in the game. I can already see a dozen Jewish advocates or wtv about how this game is antisemitic. if CA does this it would be a cool addition but I dont think either CA or SEGA wants to risk this.
these events are really touchy with the Jewish people these days and so getting it right without offending anyone is a risky move for little gain.
you see where I'm coming from?

[Choombi]

more than Germans? how many legions did rome lose because to the jews compared to the germans?

anyways what I said above was more about "real life consequences" of adding this in the game. I can already see a dozen Jewish advocates or wtv about how this game is antisemitic. if CA does this it would be a cool addition but I dont think either CA or SEGA wants to risk this.
these events are really touchy with the Jewish people these days and so getting it right without offending anyone is a risky move for little gain.
you see where I'm coming from?

i am an israeli jew and this idea excites me, i don't understand the problem with roamans butchering jew REBELS, it's total war, these things happen

[lolIsuck]

more than Germans? how many legions did rome lose because to the jews compared to the germans?

anyways what I said above was more about "real life consequences" of adding this in the game. I can already see a dozen Jewish advocates or wtv about how this game is antisemitic. if CA does this it would be a cool addition but I dont think either CA or SEGA wants to risk this.
these events are really touchy with the Jewish people these days and so getting it right without offending anyone is a risky move for little gain.
you see where I'm coming from?

It's mainly the Jewish people I see lobbying for a Jewish faction, I think partly to get recognition for the modern Jewish state. I can see how the Jews would cause lower public unrest and in case of a revolt form an own nation, it is however very unlikely it's a longlived nation. Jews have always been the cause of trouble, they didn't necessarily do anything wrong, their mere existance troubled most of their rulers.

[UsulDaNeriak]

It's mainly the Jewish people I see lobbying for a Jewish faction, I think partly to get recognition for the modern Jewish state.

Well, there is another thread from people of Georgia, promoting the Faction of Iberia. I would not read to much into it. Lot of people would like to see their ancestor tribes / nations in the game.
I am afraid my ancestors will be in as playable faction. They are the bad guys of the roman era
But I choose the romans anyways.

[CeRcVa]

interesting... : )


P.S. from Georgian-Jewish.

Well, there is another thread from people of Georgia, promoting the Faction of Iberia. I would not read to much into it. Lot of people would like to see their ancestor tribes / nations in the game.
I am afraid my ancestors will be in as playable faction. They are the bad guys of the roman era
But I choose the romans anyways.