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  1. #1

    Default Should there be a Royal Commission on drugs legislation?

    There seems to be a fair amount of demand for The UK to review current drugs policy. On the one hand there are those who say that the current policy is prohibitive in cost, doesn't stop the profitability of trading in illegal substances and criminalizes otherwise harmless users. On the other hand drug use is falling

    In my view we ought to have one, not necessarily with a view to liberalization, but rather to have robust findings based on the best evidence available. What does the forum say?


    The Independent.

    The decriminalisation of some drugs appeared a more realistic prospect tonight after charities backed Nick Clegg’s call for a Royal Commission to review Britain’s 40-year-old laws on illegal substances.

    The Deputy Prime Minister warned that the country was losing the war on drugs today and claimed the Government had missed an opportunity by not ordering a fresh look at the legislation. His comments were immediately rejected by David Cameron, who made it clear the Coalition would not be changing policy on drugs.

    But Danny Kushlick, of the Transform Drug Policy Foundation, said: “Nick Clegg’s call is a sign the world has moved on.”

    He said attitudes to drugs controls were rapidly changing around the world and accused Tory and Labour leaders of lagging behind public opinion on the issue.

    Mr Kushlick said: “The time has come for David Cameron and Ed Miliband to call a truce, end the political posturing and engage in a serious exploration of all alternatives including legal regulation. Anything less would be outdated and irresponsible.”

    The Deputy Prime Minister’s comments were a response to a report by the Commons Home Affairs Select Committee this week, which urged ministers to set up a Royal Commission to examine whether the current system of drugs controls was effective.

    Mr Clegg said: “If you were waging any other war where you have 2,000 fatalities a year, your enemies are making billions in profit, constantly throwing new weapons at you and targeting more young people, you’d have to say you are losing and it’s time to do something different. I’m anti-drugs – it’s for that reason I’m pro-reform.”

    He is praised for his leadership in facing up to a taboo subject in an article in today’s Independent by Sir Richard Branson, the Virgin Group founder, and Mike Trace, the chairman of the International Drug Policy Consortium.

    They say: “A Royal Commission may or may not be the best way to organise a review but, whatever the process, let’s stop pretending that a 50-year-old strategy, and a 40-year-old law, are sufficient to manage a 21st-century drug market.”

    The charity DrugScope welcomed “any moves towards having a mature public debate about drugs in the UK”. It said it supported creating a Royal Commission.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...s-8418202.html
    Last edited by mongrel; December 14, 2012 at 05:58 PM.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Should there be a Royal Commission on drugs legislation?

    A interesting exchange happened on Question Time last night.

    When Lord Bilimoria, who founded the company which makes Cobra Beer, said he worried about the possibility of his children becoming addicted to drugs, the author said: 'My biggest fear is that my children become alcoholics, but you got a peerage for flogging beer.'

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2247996/Take-chill-pill--Will-Self-Question-Time-audience-stitches-stormy-drug-legalisation-debate.html
     
    Bring in a Royal Commission, if we can find a way for it to be regulated by the government, at least then the tax from drug sales could help fund the NHS instead of criminal gangs.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Should there be a Royal Commission on drugs legislation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazelnut View Post
    A interesting exchange happened on Question Time last night.




    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2247996/Take-chill-pill--Will-Self-Question-Time-audience-stitches-stormy-drug-legalisation-debate.html
     
    Bring in a Royal Commission, if we can find a way for it to be regulated by the government, at least then the tax from drug sales could help fund the NHS instead of criminal gangs.

    WIN! Brewers and tobacconists indeed dance on thin ice when mentioning drug addiction

  4. #4

    Default Re: Should there be a Royal Commission on drugs legislation?

    Quote Originally Posted by justicar5 View Post
    WIN! Brewers and tobacconists indeed dance on thin ice when mentioning drug addiction
    Absolutely.

    I am sitting on the fence on the merits of current drugs policy, for professional reasons, but here are two comments lifted from the net, which may be of interest

    The British public won the war on drugs a long time ago. We wanted drugs and we have them available to us, tax-free, whenever and wherever we want.

    And if government makes drugs legal, we’ll start to lose because they’ll be able to restrict access to over-18s only, and they’ll start taxing drugs to high heaven.

    So I quite like existing drugs policy. Of course putting money in the hands of terrorists and criminals is not ideal. But are they that much worse than governments?
    The big elephant in the room in the whole legalisation-of-drugs debate (leading article, 15 December) is the unspoken understanding that the taking of drugs is somehow intrinsically wrong. Exactly why? Because it makes one feel happy and fuzzy? Well, alcohol does the same sort of thing as that, so why isn't drinking alcohol wrong? If I choose to get drunk, that is my legal right. However, if I choose to get stoned on dope, that is completely illegal. But where, exactly, is the qualitative difference between these two actions?

    The decision as to whether or not to smoke cannabis, for example, is a lifestyle choice like drinking alcohol, eating sugary doughnuts, jumping out of planes attached to a parachute and running around a muddy field chasing after a leather spheroid. All of the above have health and safety implications. Only one of these is illegal. Why not ban all the others too?
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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Should there be a Royal Commission on drugs legislation?

    I was listening to Any Questions and I heard a lot of lies and misinformation about what happened during the decriminalisation experiment in the UK.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Should there be a Royal Commission on drugs legislation?

    I actually want to high five Nick Clegg for telling it like it is which is somewhat rare from an elected politician.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Should there be a Royal Commission on drugs legislation?

    Hash and XTC should be given out on the NHS free to people who need it for medical purposes.Even Prince Harry takes drugs so the Royal commission should pass this.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Should there be a Royal Commission on drugs legislation?

    I don’t care if people use drugs, at home.

    What I care about is two fold. Theft and burglary related to drugs, the power of gangs, and the cost to the NHS.

    I wouldn’t even consider legalising hard drugs, but some soft ones are a possibility. So the best example would odorously be cannabis.

    In a attempt to find a solution I propose the following law. Keep the selling of cannabis illegal. Let a small quantity of plants be legal, enough for personnel use. With the aim of reducing the money going to drug gangs and the lack of money of addicts hopefully leading to less theft. Regarding the cost to the NHS, maybe a law which requires people to acquire a licence to grow, with a modest fee attached. This could provide some aid to the NHS.

    Plenty of flaws, but a reasonable effect for the time it took.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Should there be a Royal Commission on drugs legislation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazelnut View Post
    I don’t care if people use drugs, at home.

    What I care about is two fold. Theft and burglary related to drugs, the power of gangs, and the cost to the NHS.

    I wouldn’t even consider legalising hard drugs, but some soft ones are a possibility. So the best example would odorously be cannabis.

    In a attempt to find a solution I propose the following law. Keep the selling of cannabis illegal. Let a small quantity of plants be legal, enough for personnel use. With the aim of reducing the money going to drug gangs and the lack of money of addicts hopefully leading to less theft. Regarding the cost to the NHS, maybe a law which requires people to acquire a licence to grow, with a modest fee attached. This could provide some aid to the NHS.

    Plenty of flaws, but a reasonable effect for the time it took.
    What is your problem with legalising hard drugs? You like creating problems so legalising drugs is a bad thing.

    Sounds flippant but I can point you towards some statistics.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Should there be a Royal Commission on drugs legislation?

    Its simple really. If you told someone cannabis was going to be legalised, well from my experience with youth culture, this would be treated with slight happiness to not caring.

    Tell someone heroin is going to be legal, a different response would appear.

    Any statistics would be most welcome, this was only a random idea with I hoped could lead to more of a conversation o a subject I find interesting, and statistics would certainly add to the thread.

  11. #11
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Should there be a Royal Commission on drugs legislation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazelnut View Post
    Its simple really. If you told someone cannabis was going to be legalised, well from my experience with youth culture, this would be treated with slight happiness to not caring.

    Tell someone heroin is going to be legal, a different response would appear.

    Any statistics would be most welcome, this was only a random idea with I hoped could lead to more of a conversation o a subject I find interesting, and statistics would certainly add to the thread.
    Knock yourself out. War on heroin is idiotic though.

    ]Originally Posted by Copperknickers II
    Its safe to say that without the massive offensive against drugs going on in most parts of the world, the problems caused by drugs would be worse than they are now.
    Actually, it is very unsafe to say that. To be precise it is a non-falsifiable statement belonging mostly to an alternate history forum than a politics one.

    However we can reach a measure of understanding of what can be construed as "success" by simply comparing the stated purposes of this "War on drugs" with the outcomes. (By the way, why do they even call it a "war"? Wars, usually, end.)

    First we need to have a baseline. We could go to 1973 when Nixon declared "a war on drugs" but there were no stated policy goals. That happened eventually in 1998 during the Clinton presidency and amended later by GWBush:



    So the crucial questions are the following:
    1. Is drug use DOWN?
    2. Is crime DOWN?
    3. Are health and social costs DOWN?
    4. Are drug users HEALTHY?
    5. Is treatment AVAILABLE?
    6. Are drugs LESS AVAILABLE?


    Let us now examine the answers:

    1. Is drug use DOWN?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    http://oas.samhsa.gov/NSDUH/2k9NSDUH/2k9ResultsP.pdf

    Answer:NO

    2. Is crime DOWN?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Actually drug-related arrests are increasing as a percentage of total crime rate.

    Answer: NO

    3. Are health and social costs DOWN?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    And the DoD budget for the war abroad....

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Answer: NO

    4. Are drug users HEALTHY?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Rates of Drug-Induced Deaths,* by Race/Ethnicity† --- United States, 1999--2007

    http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5942a7.htm


    Answer: NO

    5. Is treatment AVAILABLE?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Answer: NO

    6. Are drugs LESS AVAILABLE?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    The above is the percentage of people answering yes to the question: "How easy it is to find these drugs?"
    http://whitehousedrugpolicy.gov/publ...supplement.pdf


    Answer: NO


    So, based on the available data the "War on Drugs" is an abject failure at any level. Thank you.

    Now as to the question of the OP, let's hear what a conservative Economist and Nobel Prize winner has to say:

    The attempt to enforce the prohibition of the use of drugs is destroying our poorer neighborhoods in city after city, creating a climate that is destructive to the people who live there. This phenomenon is perhaps the greatest disgrace in the United States at the moment. I say "perhaps" because an alternative is what we are doing to other countries. Can anybody tell me that the United States of America is justified in destroying Colombia because the United States cannot enforce its own laws? If we enforced our laws, there would be no, problem.

    People sell drugs because it is A. Profitable (gangs) and B. The only way for many to obtain the drugs they need (addicts).

    And since you read all this, well, you deserve a bonus quote:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    "You know, it's a funny thing, every one of the bastards that are out for legalizing marijuana is Jewish. What the Christ is the matter with the Jews, Bob? What is the matter with them? I suppose it is because most of them are psychiatrists." Richard Nixon
    [/quote][/SPOILER]



    But we've got to keep heroin illegal, it is dangerous 1111!!!!111



    Governments treating heroin addicts by giving them heroin has positive effects.

    In the UK a comparison of giving patients psychological support and injectable heroin vs oral methadone and injectable methadone

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Untreatable or just hard to treat?
    Results of the Randomised Injectable Opioid Treatment Trial (RIOTT)
    Press Briefing 15 September 2009
    Introduction
    The headline results from RIOTT are made public today 15 September 2009 at the Royal College of
    Physicians. Details of the findings are set out below. RIOTT is the first randomised controlled trial in
    the UK to compare injectable opiate treatment (injectable methadone and injectable heroin)
    delivered in new medically supervised injecting clinics to optimised (high quality) oral methadone for
    severely entrenched and ‘hard to treat’ heroin addicts.
    The RIOTT trial has been coordinated by the National Addiction Centre which was developed by the
    Institute of Psychiatry, Kings College London, and South London and Maudsley NHS Foundation
    Trust (SLaM). Both organisations are part of King’s Health Partners, one of the UK’s five Academic
    Health Sciences Centres. The research was funded by the Big Lottery through the charity Action on
    Addiction in partnership with the National Treatment Agency who have funded the supervised
    injecting clinics on behalf of the Government.
    The RIOTT trial took chronic heroin addicts who, despite active treatment, were still continuing to
    inject heroin most virtually daily. These entrenched heroin addicts were then randomised to
    treatment with either supervised injectable heroin, supervised injectable methadone or optimised
    oral methadone.
    Three supervised injecting clinics have been established in England in recent years and these are
    the sites for the trial , - in London (SLaM – established October 2005), Darlington (began
    September 2006) and Brighton (began September 07).
    The three Trusts where the three sites/clinics are located are: South London and Maudsley NHS
    Foundation Trust, Tees, Esk and Wear Valleys NHS Foundation Trust and Sussex Partnership NHS
    Trust.
    The RIOTT clinical trial is led by Professor John Strang and his team based at the National
    Addiction Centre, King’s Health Partners (which should be referenced in any description of his role,
    and in picture captions). 2
    Key points
    About the trial
    • This treatment was for a select group of heroin addicts –
    o entrenched heroin addicts who have repeatedly been found to fail to benefit from
    existing treatments
    o existing clients who despite receiving oral methadone maintenance treatment
    were continuing to inject street heroin almost every day.
    • These supervised injecting clinics provide intensive treatment
    o providing a prescription of injectable heroin and injectable methadone injected
    under strict medical supervision
    o with a high level of psychological and social support to address health and life
    issues
    • The trial compares injectable heroin and injectable methadone delivered in supervised
    injecting clinics with high quality conventional treatment (oral methadone).
    The key findings from RIOTT based on raw data are
    • This trial shows that it is possible to engage and retain in treatment some of the most
    entrenched hard-to-treat heroin addicts for whom previous treatment, rehabilitation and
    prison appear to have had little beneficial impact. These are existing clients who despite
    receiving oral methadone maintenance treatment were continuing to inject street heroin
    almost every day
    o All groups achieved good retention
    o Better retention in the injectable heroin group (88%) compared to 81% in the
    injectable methadone group and 69% in the oral methadone group.
    • The trial has achieved very positive results in terms of the primary outcome measure –
    reduced use or abstinence from ‘street’ heroin. There was a reduction in street heroin use
    amongst all 3 treatment groups at six months.
    • The most pronounced reduction was seen in the injectable heroin group
    o Three quarters responded well by substantial reduction in the use of ‘street’ heroin.
    o Of these, three quarters (or around 60% of the total group) remained largely
    abstinent allowing for no more than two lapses in drug testing during a three month
    period.
    o A quarter of those who reduced (almost 20% of the total group) were totally abstinent
    from street heroin. This is remarkable in a group for whom daily illicit use while in
    treatment was the norm.
    • For the injectable methadone and oral methadone groups, the achievements were much
    more modest. About a third were no longer using street heroin regularly, although very few
    of these were totally abstinent from street heroin.
    • There was an almost immediate benefit just 6 weeks into treatment and this benefit was
    maintained throughout the six-month period of study for each patient
    • The degree of effect of the treatment was greatest in the injectable heroin group, followed by
    injectable methadone and optimised oral methadone. 3
    • Optimised oral methadone showed greater success than predicted, perhaps due to the high
    intensity of engagement provided by regular attendance and psychosocial support. At the
    same time the injectable methadone group performed less well than predicted, though still
    with a positive effect.
    • The amount of money spent on street drugs reduced in all treatment groups.
    • The biggest reduction was seen in the heroin group.
    o Clients were spending an average of just over £300 a week on drugs before entering
    RIOTT treatment (despite already being in active treatment) and this reduced to an
    average of just under £50 a week at 6 months.
    o This was as a result of (a) substantial numbers who became ‘crime-abstinent’, and
    also (b) substantial reduction in the extent of criminal activity of those who were still
    criminally involved.
    o The total spending for the whole heroin group (approximately 40 people) translates
    as reducing from nearly £14,000 spent a week prior to entering RIOTT which then
    reduced to under £2,000 at 6 months.
    • Across the board there was a dramatic reduction in self-reported crime.
    o Prior to entering RIOTT treatment over half of the clients in each treatment group
    were committing crime and were commiting a mean number of between 20-40 crimes
    in the past 30 days.
    o At six months, the proportion committing crimes in each group more than halved and
    the mean number of crimes committed in the past 30 days reduced to between 4 -13
    – less than a third of previous levels.
    o The actual number of crimes committed drastically reduced by two thirds in each
    group. For example, those in the heroin group were committing a total of 1731 crimes
    in the 30 days prior to entering RIOTT treatment and after 6 months, this fell to 547
    crimes (a reduction of 1,184 crimes per month).
    • Prior to entering RIOTT treatment, around three quarters of each group were using crack. It
    has been thought that crack use might increase amongst clients receiving injectable opiate
    treatment (perhaps as compensatory other drug use; or perhaps due to more available
    cash). However, this was not the case and at 6 months the proportion using crack had
    reduced across all treatment groups as had the amount used.
    • It is important to remember that these clients were existing service users and already
    receiving oral methadone treatment prior to entering RIOTT. Their levels of street heroin and
    crack use, money spent on drugs and criminal activity were occurring whilst receiving
    conventional treatment. It is all the more remarkable that such benefits have been made with
    the RIOTT treatment but in particular with injectable heroin.
    • There were improvements in physical, mental health and social functioning across all
    treatment groups over the 6 month period.
    • The cost of producing positive results in this ‘difficult to treat’ group is around £15k per
    patient per year. These are the most severe 5% of the heroin using population, many of
    whom are typically committing a high level of crime to fund their addiction. By comparison
    the typical cost of prison is £44k a year per person, not to mention many other costs to
    society, so ‘do nothing’ is not a cost effective option. 4
    • This is a scientific study. It is for policy makers to decide how the findings will be applied.
    The 2008 Government Drug Strategy recognises the potential of supervised injection under
    strict clinical supervision. It cites - “... rolling out the prescription of injectable heroin and
    methadone to clients who do not respond to other forms of treatment, subject to the findings,
    due in 2009, of pilots exploring the use of this type of treatment” (H.M.Government Drug
    Strategy, 2008).
    Additional points
    • This has been a national randomised controlled trial in a supervised clinical setting which
    looked at – for the first time in the UK – the relative effectiveness of injectable methadone
    and injectable diamorphine compared to oral methadone.
    • The trial focussed on treating a very small but significant number of existing service users
    who are entrenched users and ‘hard to treat’, and have not responded well to standard
    treatment options, often relapsing many times.
    • Patients on the trial take medication under the supervision of trained medical practitioners.
    They cannot bring illicit supplies into the clinic or take prescribed doses out.
    • This scientific study has tested whether this treatment is effective in reducing illicit heroin
    use, improving health and reducing criminal activity among a particular group of hard to treat
    heroin users. Research in Holland, Switzerland, Germany and Canada shows promising
    results in these areas.
    • The social costs of heroin addiction to society and to individuals are many times greater than
    the cost of treatment, particularly in this hard to treat group. There is a range of research
    focusing on the social costs of drug-related crime, but there are other factors to take into
    account including the effects on individuals and their families, the loss of economic
    productivity and the costs to the benefits and criminal justice systems.
    • The location of the clinic is confidential for reasons of security and patient confidentiality, as
    well as to avoid compromising the research ethics of the study
    • The identity of patients engaged in the trial is also confidential
    • The diamorphine used does not draw on existing NHS supplies. At the start of the trial, it
    was imported and licensed especially for research purposes; it cannot be used for any other
    purpose (such as palliative care). The multi-dose ampoules are more cost effective and
    suitable only for use in a clinical setting. More recently, the trial moved to using a British
    supplier when this became available at a affordable price.
    • The relative costs of treatment including staffing – oral methadone about £5k p/a,
    diamorphine about £15k (may be reducible post pilot). Social costs of drug related crime,
    imprisonment etc many times higher to society, not to mention the benefits of treatment for
    users, their families and friends. Estimates vary but … for this group, (estimated at between
    5 and 10% of the opiate using population) cheaper forms of treatment are not cost effective,
    because they simply haven’t worked.
    • The RIOTT trial has recruited 127 subjects into the trial, of whom 51 are from the SLaM
    clinic, 45 from the Darlington clinic and 31 from the Brighton clinic.
    • Clients at each site are distributed across three treatment groups – with a total of 42 in the
    optimised oral methadone, 42 in the injectable methadone group and 43 in the injectable
    diamorphine group.
    • All doses of injectables are supervised. There are absolutely no take-home injectable doses.
    Clients receiving injectable heroin attend typically twice daily, and those receiving injectable
    methadone typically once a day, every day. Initial engagement is for six months.
    • An additional benefit of daily attendance and supervised medication is the development of
    closer relationships with staff, allowing more key worker sessions, including advice on
    general health and social support. Initial clinical impressions are positive.5
    • After six months, each client was fully assessed by their doctor and a clinical decision was
    made as to what treatment they go on to. Many of the clients in the trial are still receiving
    injectable heroin and to a lesser degree injectable methadone.
    Notes to Editors
    The National Addictions Centre, King’s Health Partners (NAC) seeks to improve understanding
    of addiction to drugs, alcohol and tobacco, and to develop effective preventative and treatment
    interventions. It is collaboration between researchers at the Institute of Psychiatry (IoP), King’s
    College London and clinicians at South London and Maudsley NHS Foundation Trust (SLaM). Both
    SLaM and King’s College London are partners in King’s Health Partners. Professor John Strang is
    director of the National Addictions Centre, King’s Health Partners. For more information or to
    arrange interviews please contact:
    Lorcan O’Neill lorcan.oneill@slam.nhs.uk, tel: 020 3228 2830, mobile 07966 548147.
    King’s Health Partners is one of five UK Academic Sciences Centres bringing together research,
    clinical practice, education and training across physical and mental health. King’s Health Partners is
    a pioneering collaboration between King’s College London, and Guy’s and St Thomas’, King’s
    College Hospital and South London and Maudsley NHS Foundation Trusts. For more information,
    visit www.kingshealthpartners.org
    Action on Addiction is the only UK charity working across the addiction field in research,
    prevention, treatment, professional education and family support. Contact Rachel Silver, Head of
    Communications, tel 020 7793 1011, mobile 07974 983859 07825 620 130.
    rachel.silver@actiononaddiction.org.uk
    See www.actiononaddiction.org.uk

    http://idpc.net/sites/default/files/...to%20treat.pdf



    In Germany the best way to get heroin addicts off heroin is to give them heroin, taking it out of the criminals hands and taking the profits out of crime.

    Less crime and less heroin use.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/5043766.stm

    Experts hail heroin clinic trial
    By Bob Wylie
    Investigations correspondent, BBC Scotland

    Germany is nearing completion of a three-year trial under which its worst heroin addicts are given the drug on the state.
    The heroin was given out in seven clinics in seven cities across the country. Bob Wylie has been to Hamburg to investigate the results.



    The scheme has been trialled in seven German cities

    See one addict's view
    If you go to Hamburg these days you can't miss the Blue Goals. They are a modern art masterpiece for the World Cup - 120 fluorescent blue goals on buildings all over the city.

    When the battle for the Jules Rimet Cup is in town Hamburg will host three matches including a quarter final.

    Big Frank Jerke says he can't wait. He'll be glued to the television and may even try to get a ticket for one of the games.

    Time was when that would have been unthinkable. Less than three years ago Frank was down and out, homeless and hopelessly hooked on heroin.

    It was around seven in the morning when I first saw him on Hoegerdamm Street on the outskirts of Hamburg's city centre.

    He's a big man. He stumbled off the bus and muttered "Morgen", as he passed me at the top of the steps.

    Medical supervision

    Downstairs he rang the bell at the Hamburg heroin clinic. Inside he took a breath test to prove he had not had any alcohol and then he went next door into what they call the application room.

    There, under medical supervision, he was given a syringe with chemically pure heroin - diamorphine - diluted in water.

    He got up on one of the beds, dropped his trousers and injected it into his thigh.



    Dr Christian Haasen says the results are "significant"

    See a full interview
    He put his head back and closed his eyes for a few minutes then got up, left the clinic and went to work in one of Hamburg's ship repair yards - the same as he used to do all those years ago before the smack got him.

    "Everything is good now. I've got a nice flat of my own and a good job. Better," he says.

    He laughed as he left. These days his teeth are a credit to any toothpaste manufacturer.

    Frank is one of 500 drug addicts in Germany who are on the heroin pilot programme.

    It is being conducted in seven major cities across Germany. Hamburg is the biggest trial.

    Results published

    German doctors looked at the success of heroin on prescription in Switzerland and then the Netherlands and after years of debate the Bundestag accepted that a pilot should be set up.

    The project started three years ago and was based on comparing heroin maintenance with methadone maintenance.

    Five hundred or so users were given heroin - they had to have failed on methadone beforehand - and 500 were given methadone.

    The results were published recently. On almost all counts the heroin group did better than the methadone group.


    Frank Jerke is among those on the programme in Hamburg
    Dr Christian Haasen is the research director of the German trial.

    In his office at the University of Hamburg he tells me in a matter of fact manner: "The differences between the heroin group and the methadone group are statistically significant.

    "Those on heroin stayed in treatment longer and the drop out is less than the methadone group. They had much less illicit drug use, using street heroin and cocaine, and so have better health records."

    He says he knew from other heroin trials in Switzerland and the Netherlands that there would be differences but that even he was surprised at the improvements sustained by those on heroin.

    These positives also affect employment prospects. At the Hamburg clinic 40 of the clients are working out of the 90 going there to get heroin.

    Stuck on heroin

    Ludovic Leblanc, 32, is a waiter in one of the best Italian restaurants in Hamburg.

    His take home pay, with tips, is 2,400 euros, or £1,800. He's got a good flat in the city centre and looks every inch an aspiring head waiter when he's kitted out for work. Not bad for 15 years on heroin.

    Ludovic goes to the clinic twice a day - once in the morning before work and during his afternoon break.

    His employer knows about it. But in his kitchen 13 storeys up above the river Elbe, I put it to him that, remarkable as his progress has been, he's still stuck on heroin.


    For us to give patients a daily kick on heroin cannot be seen as a permanent solution

    Dietrich Wersich
    State health minister

    Heroin prescription 'cuts costs'
    'Let GPs prescribe heroin'
    "No, I hope to be drug free by this time next year," he asserts.

    He's now on a quarter of the daily dose of heroin he was getting when he started at the clinic two years ago.

    "I couldn't have dreamed of that on methadone. After a year and a half on methadone the dose stayed the same and I would go to get street heroin almost every night," he said.

    Doctors at the Hoegerdamm clinic say one in 10 are on sufficiently decreasing doses to be described as "moving towards abstinence".

    But the preliminary figures for the study do not show any remarkable difference between heroin and methadone in the numbers that finish drug free.

    Youth protection

    Drug deaths are different. Since 2001 German drug deaths are down by 40%, according to Christian Haasen.

    A policeman made the same point about Hamburg.

    Ch Supt Norbert Ziebarth is the head of youth protection for Hamburg police. At the rather imposing Polizeiprasidium HQ in the north of Hamburg he tells me that in the time of the heroin clinic drug deaths in Hamburg have dropped from 101 in 2001 to 61 last year.


    Police in Hamburg are supportive of the scheme
    The existence of the clinic, in a way, also allowed a police crackdown on what used to be Hamburg's open drug scene.

    There are no shooting galleries in parks or congregations of drug users at the central railway station, on the scale there used to be. The police support the trial and its extension.

    "It works for the worst heroin users. We support it," says Det Supt Ziebarth.

    Not that everyone is of the same view.

    The heroin clinic experiment was introduced by the Social Democrat government of Gerhardt Schroeder.

    Now the conservative CDU, led by Angela Merkel, are in power. They are altogether less enthusiastic about heroin on the state.

    Better support

    I found that out when I met the Hamburg state minister of health, Dietrich Wersich. He disputes some of the findings of the German study and questions the costs of heroin on prescription - thus far three times greater than methadone.

    "The results for the heroin group were only slightly better than those of the methadone group," he says, "and they may have been due to other factors than solely the prescription of heroin, like better social services support and things like that."

    Herr Wersich is also dubious about what he describes as the state becoming in effect a licensed narcotics dealer.


    Ludovic Leblanc holds down as job as a restaurant waiter
    "For us to give patients a daily kick on heroin cannot be seen as a permanent solution," he said.

    "Instead we have to work to get them drug free and how can you say that's being done if the government is giving them a kick on heroin every day... and besides will the taxpayer be prepared to pay for this?"

    This weekend the Lancet published a research study of the Swiss heroin clinics, which have been running for 10 years.

    The study suggests that the Swiss model is responsible for reduced heroin use in the long term. Swiss drug deaths have plummeted in the last 10 years.

    The Lancet editorial points that in the same time the UK has had the highest drug deaths every year of any European country.

    The last official figures for drug-related deaths in Scotland was 356 for 2004. That was almost 50% higher than the figure a decade ago.

    So here's the question: Is it now time for Scotland to follow Germany and other European countries and introduce heroin clinics to give our worst addicts heroin on prescription?

    Bob Wylie's report from Hamburg will be broadcast on Radio Scotland's Investigation programme at 0900 BST on Monday. There will also be a special report on Newsnight Scotland at 2300 BST.

    [/quote]

    With love assuredly from Garb.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Should there be a Royal Commission on drugs legislation?

    But if heroin was legalized what would happen to the Golden Crescent and Balkans drug trade? What about the Albanian, Bosnian, et al mafias that operate globally? What about the international banking system that profits from laundering drug money for said mafias? Let's think about the criminals and financial terrorists before we get ahead of ourselves here. Have a little compassion please.
    Once a political decision has been reached to proceed with internal disturbances in Syria, CIA is prepared, and SIS (MI6) will attempt to mount minor sabotage and coup de main [sic] incidents within Syria, working through contacts with individuals. Incidents should not be concentrated in Damascus. [A] necessary degree of fear, [...] frontier incidents and [staged] border clashes [will] provide a pretext for intervention. The CIA and SIS should use [...] capabilities in both psychological and action fields to augment tension. [Funding should be provided for a] Free Syria Committee [and arms should be supplied to] political factions with paramilitary or other actionist capabilities.
    ~ Joint US-UK leaked Intelligence Document, 1957

  13. #13
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Should there be a Royal Commission on drugs legislation?

    Quote Originally Posted by YukonTrooper View Post
    But if heroin was legalized what would happen to the Golden Crescent and Balkans drug trade? What about the Albanian, Bosnian, et al mafias that operate globally? What about the international banking system that profits from laundering drug money for said mafias? Let's think about the criminals and financial terrorists before we get ahead of ourselves here. Have a little compassion please.
    No one ever thinks about the mafia or their children.

  14. #14
    mrmouth's Avatar flaxen haired argonaut
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    Default Re: Should there be a Royal Commission on drugs legislation?

    The illegal drug trade would still exist in a significant manner, along with everything bad that comes with it. As we are human beings we will thoroughly screw up any attempts to marginalize them by taxing the hell out of drugs as a means to make it more acceptable to certain groups of people, while pushing people back to the cheaper, illegal source.

    That is exactly what will happen in Colorado and Washington. And they will have torpedoed the effort.

    And I almost myself when I read that a person in law enforcement in Colorado who was against the bill there, actually suggested that some of the tax revenue be diverted from schools and into law enforcement as state and federal funding will dry up without being able to go after MJ users.
    Last edited by mrmouth; December 18, 2012 at 10:22 AM.
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  15. #15

    Default Re: Should there be a Royal Commission on drugs legislation?

    Quote Originally Posted by mrmouth View Post
    The illegal drug trade would still exist in a significant manner, along with everything bad that comes with it. As we are human beings we will thoroughly screw up any attempts to marginalize them by taxing the hell out of drugs as a means to make it more acceptable to certain groups of people, while pushing people back to the cheaper, illegal source.

    That is exactly what will happen in Colorado and Washington. And they will have torpedoed the effort.

    And I almost myself when I read that a person in law enforcement in Colorado who was against the bill there, actually suggested that some of the tax revenue be diverted from schools and into law enforcement as state and federal funding will dry up without being able to go after MJ users.
    But then they would have the status of properly organized criminals who evade alcohol or tobacco duty, perhaps, rather than the violent thugs who front the current drugs trade ?
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Should there be a Royal Commission on drugs legislation?

    Quote Originally Posted by mrmouth View Post
    The illegal drug trade would still exist in a significant manner, along with everything bad that comes with it. As we are human beings we will thoroughly screw up any attempts to marginalize them by taxing the hell out of drugs as a means to make it more acceptable to certain groups of people, while pushing people back to the cheaper, illegal source.
    Of course it would but it's always good to have options. People like me, who don't want hassle and a criminal record would at least have the option of going through legit retail sources and indulge in the knowledge that ground glass is unlikely to be found in this particular bag of C. I don't think that I would ever go back to clandestine shopping and all associated risks if I had the option of a lawful purchase; if I found myself unable to afford taxed drugs I would sooner get another credit card or ask my dad for some money (if I was that desperate) than trawl through my contacts to find a decent dealer.

    I quit smoking recently, but when I did smoke I still bought overpriced cigarettes from shop rather than buying them on the sly (well, unless someone just happend to be going to Prague and would bring me 200 as a pressie). Easy life mate, that's where it's at for me.

  17. #17
    Watercress's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Should there be a Royal Commission on drugs legislation?

    Probably best to have a look at how the legalisation of drugs in those US States works out before we do anything hasty.

    "Only Connect!...Only connect the prose and the passion, and both will be exalted, and human love will be seen at its height. Live in fragments no longer."

  18. #18
    Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Should there be a Royal Commission on drugs legislation?

    I am 99% behind the government producing drugs for people as they do that already with anti depressants.Let the government produce drugs instead of crime gangs as you would get a better safer product.The tax could go to cancer research and hospitals and schools.You would make billions.People will always drink alcohol and smoke and take drugs it is in our nature to do these things for the buzz.

    The draw back is when you get head shops open and they sell all kinds of dangerous things.They do not care who they sell to and in Ireland they had to be closed as school kids were going in for bath salts and a legal high.The idea that drugs would be easier to get for kids or that it would be more acceptable for them to take drugs.When things are legal and all around them they may feel more aloud to take narcotics.

    So in conclusion I believe Chemists should sell drugs to adults and out of the profit we could have a campaign explaining the dangers like we do with Cigs.At least the drugs would be safer and drug dealers would not have to shoot each other over turf wars.

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