What if Ned HAD sent Loras Tyrell to arrest Gregor Clegane?

[beckyolt]

Looking back at it now, I realized that could have been an absolute political win for Ned. Loras was just an unexperienced tourney jouster who died in his first true battle, so riding with 120 against Ser Gregor - to an ambush - would've probably resulted in his death as well.

That meant the Tyrells would never have joined the Lannisters - it is often said how Loras is Mace's favorite son - and since they disliked Stannis as well, after Renly's death they could have probably joined the Stark/Tully alliance! Marrying Edmure ( he was, what, in his mid 20s'? ) and Margaery would be a good bet.Before his death, we could even have had a vengeful Renly attacking the Lannisters rather than just sitting amassing troops. All the scenario resulting from this seems pretty complicated.

But what would be the other possibilities? Loras kills Gregor? Loras ressurected by Thoros and leads the BWB instead of Berric?

[stefan1921]

Loras would not kill Gregor,and if he was ressurected I think he would return to his lover or try to get revenge for him if Renly is dead.

Other then that, it sounds plausible.

[Mhaedros]

Sounds interesting, but I don't think Thoros would've resurrected him cos of his personality. Loras is too much like Jaime

[Louis XVI]

Hindsight is a ...... and Ned (awesome as he was) a political toddler.

[Adamat]

Hindsight is a ...... and Ned (awesome as he was) a political toddler.

But Ned's goal wasn't political here. He had expected Gregor to die. And if you want to kill someone, it's better to send a proven warrior than a green tourney knight.

[Feanaro Curufinwe]

But Ned's goal wasn't political here. He had expected Gregor to die. And if you want to kill someone, it's better to send a proven warrior than a green tourney knight.

It wouldn't have been in-character for him too. He would never have sent a boy to kill one of the most dangerous Knights in the Realm only for the boy to be killed so he could gain a political advantage.

[Adamat]

Indeed. But what i meant was, not even Tywin would have sent Loras, since he just expected Gregor to die.

[Mount Suribachi]

Loras was just an unexperienced tourney jouster who died in his first true battle,

Loras ain't dead. I don't even think he's injured - that was just telling Cersei what she wanted to hear whilst Loras is away doing something else (possibly heading back to Highgarden to fight the Ironborn).

[Archon Patriarch]

Loras ain't dead. I don't even think he's injured - that was just telling Cersei what she wanted to hear whilst Loras is away doing something else (possibly heading back to Highgarden to fight the Ironborn).

...Hmmm...Yeaaahhh I dunno. He could return to them as soon as Dragonstone was recaptured.

I think he is actually wounded, unless he can walk through a siege unscathed. Not dead mind you, and probably up for a negative Jaime character progression. The scars he recieves will cause him to rethink some stuff, probably become a little angry at the world.

In any case it could potentially make him a match for Shireen "Also kind of messed up unfortunately" Baratheon. If Margery dies in this next little trial...

[beckyolt]

Loras ain't dead. I don't even think he's injured - that was just telling Cersei what she wanted to hear whilst Loras is away doing something else (possibly heading back to Highgarden to fight the Ironborn).

I never thought of that because leading a stupid frontal attack being the first man to climb the ladders sounds exactly like something Loras would do. I don't think he'd be that cunning, either.



All I know is that sending Loras would be a minor decision that could change the whole tide of war. And Littlefinger knew it - when Sansa talks about how her father should've sent Loras because it would be just like in the songs, he agrees Ned should've sent him, saying however those are not the reasons he'd have to do it. Just another example of how morality just doesn't fit in politics.

Indeed. But what i meant was, not even Tywin would have sent Loras, since he just expected Gregor to die.

Tywin would have done it, he was too smart not to see this opportunity. And he'd be the first one to say that influencing the most powerful family in the realm to declare war against your enemy is a far better objective than simply killing one of your enemy's lieutnants.

[Mount Suribachi]

I never thought of that because leading a stupid frontal attack being the first man to climb the ladders sounds exactly like something Loras would do. I don't think he'd be that cunning, either.

No, he isn't that cunning. But his grandma is I do agree though that leading the charge is exactly the kind of vainglorious thing Loras would do.

[stefan1921]

It wouldn't have been in-character for him too. He would never have sent a boy to kill one of the most dangerous Knights in the Realm only for the boy to be killed so he could gain a political advantage.

Very true, he sent Beric Donadarrion becuase he was proven commander. Loras might have been a great swordsman, but somehow I can't picture Ned sending a 16-17 year old (i cant remember his age) to fight the mountain.

[Tyrion King on the Iron Throne]

since they disliked Stannis as well, after Renly's death they could have probably joined the Stark/Tully alliance!

If you found out that your teenage son had been sent to kill a brother maiming maniac like the mountain, and had gotten himself killed for it, would you be so keen to jump into alliances with the guy who sent him off to die?

would highgarden have joined with renly if the knight of the flowers was dead? maybe they'd have declared for stannis, and stannis would have had a much easier time of it.

so it might go:

Ned sends loras.
Loras dies.
Tyrells hate lannisters for the mountain,
Tyrells hate starks for sending Loras to die at 15 or whatever
Robert dies, Ned dies, Stannis claims his throne.
Without Loras, Renly cant win over highgarden to declare him king, thus declares Stormlands for stannis.
Highgarden also declare for stannis cos he's becoming most powerful/good claim/room for bettering themselves
with no Joffrey/Renly/Stannis debate, Robb declares for the rightful king, the almighty Stannis, instead of getting kingship in the north.
Stannis, with power of dragonstone, storms end and highgarden assault KL and Kill Joff, take Tyrion and cersei hostage.
Takes large host northwest, trapping Tywin between him, the un-King in the North from riverrun, and Roose Bolton at ruby ford. demand Tywin bends knee and delivers mountain.
Tyrells marry Willas to Shireen. Crippled power couple.
Gives Robb Stark Joffreys head, Neds bones, ICE and folds the north back into the 7K.
Greyjoy rebellion crushed by stannis. again.


Yay stannis!

[beckyolt]

If you found out that your teenage son had been sent to kill a brother maiming maniac like the mountain, and had gotten himself killed for it, would you be so keen to jump into alliances with the guy who sent him off to die?

would highgarden have joined with renly if the knight of the flowers was dead? maybe they'd have declared for stannis, and stannis would have had a much easier time of it.

so it might go:

Ned sends loras.
Loras dies.
Tyrells hate lannisters for the mountain,
Tyrells hate starks for sending Loras to die at 15 or whatever
Robert dies, Ned dies, Stannis claims his throne.
Without Loras, Renly cant win over highgarden to declare him king, thus declares Stormlands for stannis.
Highgarden also declare for stannis cos he's becoming most powerful/good claim/room for bettering themselves
with no Joffrey/Renly/Stannis debate, Robb declares for the rightful king, the almighty Stannis, instead of getting kingship in the north.
Stannis, with power of dragonstone, storms end and highgarden assault KL and Kill Joff, take Tyrion and cersei hostage.
Takes large host northwest, trapping Tywin between him, the un-King in the North from riverrun, and Roose Bolton at ruby ford. demand Tywin bends knee and delivers mountain.
Tyrells marry Willas to Shireen. Crippled power couple.
Gives Robb Stark Joffreys head, Neds bones, ICE and folds the north back into the 7K.
Greyjoy rebellion crushed by stannis. again.


Yay stannis!

Why would the Tyrell hate him? There were hundreds of people in the throne room, and all of them saw Loras himself asking to go. It wasn't like Ned ordered him to.

[Tyrion King on the Iron Throne]

Why would the Tyrell hate him? There were hundreds of people in the throne room, and all of them saw Loras himself asking to go. It wasn't like Ned ordered him to.

because its plainly obvious that loras shouldn't be sent, and ned acts on that. if your friends teenage son asked you to send him on a dangerous mission and he got killed, do you think your friend would forgive you, just because he asked to go?

I reckon Loras's love for renly is what won over highgarden in the first place. sure, they may join him, but would they crown him? the whole crowning thing was most lilkely loras's idea (HBO series has a scene showing just that, though how much that counts for the series as a whole...) it might not have ever occurred to renly to try for kingship. which is why i think they'd probably join stannis, as he's neither stark nor lannister, and with no king renly, how else are they gonna get more power/standing?
it was also Loras who ran back to bitterbridge to recall the tyrell bannermen after renly died. if all the lords who turned to stannis returned to bitterbridge under stannis' banners, who's to say the rest of the banners wouldnt turn too?

[beckyolt]

because its plainly obvious that loras shouldn't be sent, and ned acts on that. if your friends teenage son asked you to send him on a dangerous mission and he got killed, do you think your friend would forgive you, just because he asked to go?

I reckon Loras's love for renly is what won over highgarden in the first place. sure, they may join him, but would they crown him? the whole crowning thing was most lilkely loras's idea (HBO series has a scene showing just that, though how much that counts for the series as a whole...) it might not have ever occurred to renly to try for kingship. which is why i think they'd probably join stannis, as he's neither stark nor lannister, and with no king renly, how else are they gonna get more power/standing?
it was also Loras who ran back to bitterbridge to recall the tyrell bannermen after renly died. if all the lords who turned to stannis returned to bitterbridge under stannis' banners, who's to say the rest of the banners wouldnt turn too?

But the way people thought was different back then. Loras was already a grown man by their standards, and a soldier was supposed to face dangerous situations. Sending Loras would be seen as giving him an opportunity of gaining glory. Cersei sent Loras to Dragonstone, and the Tyrells held no ill against her for what happened.

No, he isn't that cunning. But his grandma is I do agree though that leading the charge is exactly the kind of vainglorious thing Loras would do.

But his grandma would know as well that Loras wouldn't be of much help against the Ironborn, either. He's just too green.

[Tyrion King on the Iron Throne]

Cersei sent Loras to Dragonstone, and the Tyrells held no ill against her for what happened.

not that we know of

[Iforgot]

so it might go:

Ned sends loras.
Loras dies.
Tyrells hate lannisters for the mountain,
Tyrells hate starks for sending Loras to die at 15 or whatever
Robert dies, Ned dies, Stannis claims his throne.
Without Loras, Renly cant win over highgarden to declare him king, thus declares Stormlands for stannis.
Highgarden also declare for stannis cos he's becoming most powerful/good claim/room for bettering themselves
with no Joffrey/Renly/Stannis debate, Robb declares for the rightful king, the almighty Stannis, instead of getting kingship in the north.
Stannis, with power of dragonstone, storms end and highgarden assault KL and Kill Joff, take Tyrion and cersei hostage.
Takes large host northwest, trapping Tywin between him, the un-King in the North from riverrun, and Roose Bolton at ruby ford. demand Tywin bends knee and delivers mountain.
Tyrells marry Willas to Shireen. Crippled power couple.
Gives Robb Stark Joffreys head, Neds bones, ICE and folds the north back into the 7K.
Greyjoy rebellion crushed by stannis. again.


Yay stannis!

I like the way you think!

[complete noob:(]

If you found out that your teenage son had been sent to kill a brother maiming maniac like the mountain, and had gotten himself killed for it, would you be so keen to jump into alliances with the guy who sent him off to die?

would highgarden have joined with renly if the knight of the flowers was dead? maybe they'd have declared for stannis, and stannis would have had a much easier time of it.

so it might go:

Ned sends loras.
Loras dies.
Tyrells hate lannisters for the mountain,
Tyrells hate starks for sending Loras to die at 15 or whatever
Robert dies, Ned dies, Stannis claims his throne.
Without Loras, Renly cant win over highgarden to declare him king, thus declares Stormlands for stannis.
Highgarden also declare for stannis cos he's becoming most powerful/good claim/room for bettering themselves
with no Joffrey/Renly/Stannis debate, Robb declares for the rightful king, the almighty Stannis, instead of getting kingship in the north.
Stannis, with power of dragonstone, storms end and highgarden assault KL and Kill Joff, take Tyrion and cersei hostage.
Takes large host northwest, trapping Tywin between him, the un-King in the North from riverrun, and Roose Bolton at ruby ford. demand Tywin bends knee and delivers mountain.
Tyrells marry Willas to Shireen. Crippled power couple.
Gives Robb Stark Joffreys head, Neds bones, ICE and folds the north back into the 7K.
Greyjoy rebellion crushed by stannis. again.


Yay stannis!

I know this was from a few days ago, but I really doubt Highgarden would ever declare for Stannis. Mainly because of the Florent/Tyrell feud that goes back centuries.

[Pyres Δt Varanasi]

It would be a dead Loras Tyrell XD