Debate/discussion ,ABORTION

[nerf13]

It has become one of the most vicious, important and divisive battlegrounds in the 2012 US presidential election. Since it was legalised in 1973, the issue of abortion has polarized the US, but now the battle has been taken to a new level.

Last year, an unprecedented number of laws have been passed across the US, all aimed at restricting abortion or reproductive rights.

But the fight goes far beyond the medical procedure, with Republican politicians even attacking the Obamas administration for making contraception more readily available.

The US has seen more anti-abortion violence than any other country in the world. Since 1993, at least eight abortion providers, including four doctors have been killed. And there have been over 200 arsons and bombings against reproductive healthcare clinics since 1977.

Is it the right of a woman to decide whether she wants to do abortion ,or should it be regulated or even banned? If its the women's right ,then on what grounds is abortion justified? Has morality something to do with abortion?

[Biggieboy]

I'm pro abortion, to at least some extent. It shouldn't be used as a "whoops, forgot a condom, time for an abortion". Definitely pro abortion when it's a rape pregnancy, or when the mother's life is in danger. In other cases, I'm sort of okay with it, but it shouldn't be taken lightly; it still has the potential of becoming a human life. Before a certain period, there is no brain formed, and it would be the same as removing a tumor to put it rudely.

[Aeneas Veneratio]

I'm pro abortionist, to the extent that it must be done before the brain is formed (the 12th week, right?). It should be allowed for women to have a abortion after a rape or if the couple/mother are/is deemed unfit to even take care of the child.

As for the OP's question: Regulated, before the 12th week mark it should be allowed, after that, it's time for the mother/couple to buy baby stuff!

[removeduser_4536284751384]

At no point during pregnancy does a fetus have a preference for being born. IMO killing an unborn child is morally only slightly worse than turning off the life support machine of a brain dead patient.

Indeed, for like the first 18 months of life, a baby is barely conscious and similarly has little preference for being alive. There is reason until the modern era "infanticide" was a seperate from "murder" and carried a lesser penalty. I am uncomfortable with infanticide though. Perhaps because society has conditioned me to be.

[Dr Zoidberg]

Indeed, for like the first 18 months of life, a baby is barely conscious and similarly has little preference for being alive. .

You clearly don't have children. Words cannot express how ridiculous your statement is.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Nothing wrong with abortions, so long as they don't start drastically cutting down on birth rates.

[AqD]

Nothing wrong with abortions, so long as they don't start drastically cutting down on birth rates.

What's wrong with low birth rates?

[Prosaic Visitant]

What's wrong with low birth rates?

All the various economic problems it creates. Yes, over-population is also a problem, but I don't feel harming ourselves in this manner is the solution to resource exhaustion.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

What's wrong with low birth rates?

Lots of old people supported by few people of working age, primarily.

[Mangalore]

Lots of old people supported by few people of working age, primarily.

said old people are however usually fit into their 70s today and are the demographic with the highest savings and benefits so there are several measures to deal with it. The issue in industrialized countries is that due to automatization higher population numbers aka more children aren't a safe bet for their future because we need nearly exclusively smart, well educated children if they are supposed to take a good place in society which means they need several times the resources our grandparents saw sufficient for four or five children (aka basic education, apprenticeship, one or two take over the family business the others will find work in nearby companies or in case of daughters just marry and raise a family). This doesn't even involve the obvious issues of women needing/wanting equal or higher education and a chance for some sort of career for themselves which further increases the cost benefit assessment.

[Mangalore]

...

[B]Is it the right of a woman to decide whether she wants to do abortion ,or should it be regulated or even banned? If its the women's right ,then on what grounds is abortion justified? Has morality something to do with abortion?
...

Yes, no, yes, none, no.

The abortion issue is the argument of the self determination of a person vs. the definition of a person.

Overall I have trust in women to have as good or better judgement than the average of the population and thus use this measure with responsibility. What I know about abortion in my surroundings I know no woman who takes abortion lightly and the few ones who went through an abortion didn't just do it for lolz or enjoyed doing it.

That doesn't exclude women who are irresponsible but if we'd judge a gender by the idiots among them men wouldn't get away very well as well.

[Valden]

Did anyone else watch the video?
As for abortion, I think it is morally impermissible, but I can understand how other people could reach a different view to me; the issue hinges on what it is to be alive, which is a philosophical question. My position is that life begins at conception.

[vercassivelaunos]

As for abortion, I think it is morally impermissible, but I can understand how other people could reach a different view to me; the issue hinges on what it is to be alive, which is a philosophical question. My position is that life begins at conception.

It doesn't depend on how you define being alive. Alive is clearly defined as not dead. An ovum is even alive before conception. The same goes for a spermium.
But it doesn't matter if they are alive. If it actually mattered, we would be oblieged to refrain from killing any form of life. This would include bacteria, fungi, or any cattle. But clearly that doesn't seem to be of importance.
But why isn't it of importance? It is simple, at least from my point of view: All those forms of life that we deliberately kill have no consciousness. Most of them don't even have the ability to suffer (e.g. the nervous system of most fish is too underdeveloped to let them suffer from pain). And those that can suffer we kill in ways that they suffer to a minimal extent (e.g. cattle is usually stunned before it is butchered).
And this is why I think that abortion should be allowed, as long as the embryo/foetus cannot suffer in any way. It is, at least virtually, possible to suffer as soon as soon as one has a functioning nervous system. And this is the line that I would draw: Abortion should be possible up until the moment when the unborn child develops a nervous system. After that point it should be illegal.

[nerf13]

You know what irritates me most of all about debates is that when someone makes an argument or statement and it has religious connection then on the ground of being "religiously related" they discredit or dismiss the statement/argument.It's almost the same like saying :“Oh ,he/she is religiously related therefore there's no point of discussion because he is delusional or anti-intelligent.“Then usually starts mocking, instead of healthy discussion.
By the way ,that 180 Movie is worth watching.(Now I don't say that you have to like it)

[Mangalore]

...
Christianity is a broad term, I think it's foolish to reach to such conclusion.It's almost the same when a mass murderer kills a lot of people and therefore he claims to be a Christian.- Does it make him a Christian cause he claims to be one ?
...
So, by your logic it seems to me that if someone claims to be a Christian and does something „horrible“ or justifies his/her actions that he did it in the name of God then all Christians are to be blamed. Or am I wrong?

Yes, you are wrong. I am claiming that Christians and their churches cannot claim that x% of the population are of their denomination determined by birth and remain so until death - unless they explicitly leave the church - and then when someone with their denomination does something horrible wiggle out of it by claiming he wasn't a true Christian.

Hitler didn't revoke his faith, at best swayed between different Christian denominations and the Catholic Church didn't throw him out. Hence based on the way Christians count Christians he was Christian.
It actually doesn't mean he was a good Christian or that he himself considered himself Catholic. Just that by the parameters churches like to use to claim the number of their faithful, he would be in it.

[Colonel Dax]

Pro-choice all the way, regardless of the circumstances.

As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter whether the pregnancy was the product of rape, ineffectual contraceptives, or sheer foolishness, it's still the woman's body to do with what she will.

Any connection between "morality" and abortion would imply that there is, in fact, some sort of universal morality, or code of ethics. To that end, though, I feel that I must disagree (instead, I tend to believe that morality is predicated by the individual). As such, the morality behind abortion is, likewise, based soley upon individual perceptions.

At the end of the day, this is really a moot point, no? More often than not, it seems that we are dead-set in our ways, and are not likely to change any time soon.

[Lord of Lost Socks]

The second I saw the guy talking I facepalmed.



If I was making a pro-choice vid I'd also find the nuttiest nuts to represent the other side.

[fkizz]

The second I saw the guy talking I facepalmed.



If I was making a pro-choice vid I'd also find the nuttiest nuts to represent the other side.

Well cherry picking does wonders. The fact that there are nutsy theists isn't a reason to not be a theist. Or are you going to say Atheists don't go to psychiatry wards?

[Lord of Lost Socks]

Oh no. Nuttiness comes in all flavours. Hazel, pea, etc.

Man, that metaphor is becoming convoluted.

[Deathless]

To put my stance as simply as possible. I wish it to remain legal(in an available sense, not the legal but good luck actually getting one that a lot of states have pushed), while also promoting contraception, education and the sort of economic environment that makes being able to simply afford children possible.