Problem of Evil, Free Will and Natural Disasters

**Veliky Kaiser Theos** · December 10, 2012, 03:57 AM

I've heard plenty of theists rebut the Problem of Evil with the free will argument, but I've never heard a rebuttal that accounts for disease and natural disasters. Would any theists care to provide?

**basics** · December 10, 2012, 04:25 AM

" I've heard plenty of theists rebut the Problem of Evil with the free will argument, but I've never heard a rebuttal that accounts for disease and natural disasters. Would any theists care to provide? "

Veliky Kaiser Theos,

Evil, disease and natural disasters are a result of the fall of man plus all creation being affected. As for free-will it only exists in the minds of men who will not accept that there never has been freedom of the will. Yes all men have a will but it has never been free. The garden clearly shows this because when in it Adam and Eve were under the brolly as it were of God. They lived by certain rules never at that time knowing that evil existed.

It wasn't until Eve was persuaded that God didn't really mean what He had told them that she ate of the forbidden fruit. Now some might try to explain that her action was her choice but that is quite wrong because she didn't have knowledge of what death was never mind evil, accepting what she had been told as being OK.

We read therefore that on being cast out, all that they had known was completely different and the important thing here is to recognise that even if they had free-will they couldn't exercise it by going back because that was blocked off to them. So, here they were under a curse, as Paul says handed over to the lusts of their hearts, in a world over which the ole Serpent had control.

Any choices they made from then on, outwith the power of God, were limitted to the rule of sin and Satan. From the one situation to the other their wills were never free. It remains that way even today. Many think that through religiosity they have by choices found a way back but alas this is not true as seen from the parables of the sheep and goats or the wheat and tares.

It is a kind of self denial that the religious kid themselves on with. Never having been through rebirth as God directs it, they retain for themselves the fallacy of free-will that this choice is theirs and not God's.

**~~removeduser_4536284751384~~** · December 10, 2012, 04:51 AM

My favorite explanation is that natural disasters and suffering in this world don't matter in the slightest, because after your death, regardless of how it comes, you will go to heaven, assuming you have lived as you are expected to. When looked at through this filter a quarter of a million dying in a tsunamia or 60 million dying in a war doesn't look like a tragedy, in fact the people were being judged and probably saved.

Which is why I think it's a very dangerous filter...

**Himster** · December 10, 2012, 06:04 AM

The problem of evil for a theist is not that god allows evil, the problem of evil is that god commits evil in the form of natural disasters, diseases etc. The usual cop-out used is that these are part of a grand plan because the over-riding pre-conceived notion is that god is good regardless of (and at odds with) his actions.

**Ironside II** · December 10, 2012, 06:58 AM

basics; the flaw about your reasoning is that there's no such thing as being outwith the power of God, if God is omnipotent and omnicient.

An omnipotent and omnicient God observed the whole scene and could at any point intervene, but choosed not to.

**basics** · December 11, 2012, 05:36 AM

" basics; the flaw about your reasoning is that there's no such thing as being outwith the power of God, if God is omnipotent and omnicient. An omnipotent and omnicient God observed the whole scene and could at any point intervene, but choosed not to."

Ironside II,

I appreciate what you truly say but when I was speaking of being outside or outwith the power of God I was referring to all them that are not born again, them for whom the barriers have not been taken down through rebirth in and by His blood. As Jesus Himself said this must happen if any are to enter heaven meaning that their sin is gone before they can enter.

**Ironside II** · December 12, 2012, 04:18 AM

Originally Posted by basics

I appreciate what you truly say but when I was speaking of being outside or outwith the power of God I was referring to all them that are not born again, them for whom the barriers have not been taken down through rebirth in and by His blood. As Jesus Himself said this must happen if any are to enter heaven meaning that their sin is gone before they can enter.

Similar problem there. Most of those people never even had the option of finding Jesus, due to limitations of time and place. So those are outside or outwith the power of God, simply because He choosed to, in His omnipotence and omnicience.

**basics** · December 12, 2012, 05:40 AM

" Similar problem there. Most of those people never even had the option of finding Jesus, due to limitations of time and place. So those are outside or outwith the power of God, simply because He choosed to, in His omnipotence and omnicience."

Ironside II,

No, that is not correct nor is it in the sequence that Jesus Himself lays down. He says that no-one can come to God except by Him and that no-one can come to Him except the Father draws them. So, it is God by the Spirit that draws men to Himself through Jesus Christ. That goes all the way back to the very beginning, beginning at Abel. That man was made righteous, which in Hebrew means spotless, perfect, sinless, and could only have been so had Jesus Christ been revealed to him by God. Just so with anyone else according to what is written.

Time and place hold no limitations for God. No-one that is living or has ever lived has any excuses because what is in them of God and what surrounds them by God clearly is shown in these two things and as far as the Old Covenant believers were concerned their belief was put to their account that Jesus Christ would come to die for them and when that occurred and His rising took place, these accounts were settled.

The day that Eve ate of the fruit followed by Adam was the day that all mankind were put outside of God's glory. It is His power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ that brings them back in and as I said that applied to the Old Covenant believers too. Only God can justify and only through Jesus Christ can they be justified. There is no other way. It is all a work of God and no-one else, no priest, no church, all God.

**Valden** · December 10, 2012, 08:53 AM

Originally Posted by Veliky Kaiser Theos

I've heard plenty of theists rebut the Problem of Evil with the free will argument, but I've never heard a rebuttal that accounts for disease and natural disasters. Would any theists care to provide?

Firstly, the term 'natural evil' is highly problematic. By evil we mean breaking our moral obligations set for us by God. The natural world is under no such obligation, but instead is governed by physical laws, which are by all accounts amoral. The issue then, (as Elfdude words it) is why did God not create a 'safety net' preventing the natural world from harming humans?

I'd recommend looking up Richard Swinburne, he has some good arguments on the issue. Basically, if you were to imagine a world where only human freewill exists, and not natural evil, you would be imagining heaven; no one contests that we have freewill in heaven, just that those who are there are the good ones

So if there was a 'safety net' stopping natural evil effecting humans, many opportunities to make good choices would be lost. I mean, lets face it, if the only evil we ever encountered was human evil, then there would be many of us who would never be confronted with a proper moral dilemma, and since God wants us to reach Him freely, rather than simply having created us loving Him (a contradiction) natural disasters, illness and accidents exists in order that we may have the opportunity to reach Him.

**Aeneas Veneratio** · December 10, 2012, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by Valden

So if there was a 'safety net' stopping natural evil effecting humans, many opportunities to make good choices would be lost. I mean, lets face it, if the only evil we ever encountered was human evil, then there would be many of us who would never be confronted with a proper moral dilemma, and since God wants us to reach Him freely, rather than simply having created us loving Him (a contradiction) natural disasters, illness and accidents exists in order that we may have the opportunity to reach Him.

Dying of old age, fine. Being handicapped from birth defects, not fine.

Do our time in heaven get shortened by having a long and decent life before going there? If the stay in your heaven is eternal, does it matter that much, if we go there at age 3 or age 90?

**Valden** · December 10, 2012, 01:52 PM

Originally Posted by Aeneas Veneratio

Do our time in heaven get shortened by having a long and decent life before going there? If the stay in your heaven is eternal, does it matter that much, if we go there at age 3 or age 90?

Why would Earthly age be at all significant compared to the eternity of the soul? You are looking at this from a naturalist perspective, seeing death as an absolute ending; that is a mistaken view of theology when it is based in the supernatural.

As I said in my post which you quoted from, if God exists then the purpose of natural pain is to give us the opportunity to reach Him through it; a certain kind of goodness would be lost without the function to help others. If God exists the purpose of this life is to reach Him, whether at 3 or 90 becomes irrelevant when comparing the finite to the infinite.

**Biggieboy** · December 10, 2012, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by Valden

Why would Earthly age be at all significant compared to the eternity of the soul? You are looking at this from a naturalist perspective, seeing death as an absolute ending; that is a mistaken view of theology when it is based in the supernatural.

As I said in my post which you quoted from, if God exists then the purpose of natural pain is to give us the opportunity to reach Him through it; a certain kind of goodness would be lost without the function to help others. If God exists the purpose of this life is to reach Him, whether at 3 or 90 becomes irrelevant when comparing the finite to the infinite.

Then why doesn't he just "create" us to be instantly into heaven? What's with the waiting room here?

**Valden** · December 10, 2012, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by Biggieboy

Then why doesn't he just "create" us to be instantly into heaven? What's with the waiting room here?

As I said, for God to create us loving Him would be contradictory; the greatest gift God could bestow on us is the freewill to come to love Him. given His knowledge of each of our individual natures, He places us providentially in history so that we have the maximum chance of reaching Him, be it through his natural revelation, through suffering or through a religious text.

**Deathless** · December 10, 2012, 10:07 AM

This seemed appropriate.

**Himster** · December 10, 2012, 02:36 PM

Many opportunities for goodness would have been lost if Hitler didn't kill all those Jews. That's a horrifying argument.

**Aeneas Veneratio** · December 10, 2012, 06:05 PM

I like the logic you are using... It's sounding like you are omniscient of this supernatural being. How is that? Did it tell you all that itself?

Expecting people to find belief in you through suffering sounds like a psychopath at work.

**boofhead** · December 11, 2012, 06:08 AM

May I add that to God, the death of a human is not a death as we see it. We are locked in the box of life, with all its limitations. God knows what lies before, after and outside death. We do not. Imagine we are looking at a butterfly emerging from a cocoon. The animal does not know what comes after. It is in a state of unpleasantry during this transitional period. If it relies on everything it [I]knows[/] then of course it thinks the transition must be negative.

I've seen a few people die by natural causes by now. One sticks out, my mother-in-law who died a few years ago. She never complained. In fact during my life she never complained about anything, ever. She was like this happy lady who would always accept me and always leave me feeling good about myself. The last time I saw her she could barely breathe. But she told me she was OK even when I told her she was not.

Her life has seared a message in my brain, about what so many people see as important, versus what actually is important.

**Veliky Kaiser Theos** · December 11, 2012, 07:50 AM

Originally Posted by Valden

I'd recommend looking up Richard Swinburne, he has some good arguments on the issue. Basically, if you were to imagine a world where only human freewill exists, and not natural evil, you would be imagining heaven; no one contests that we have freewill in heaven, just that those who are there are the good ones

So if there was a 'safety net' stopping natural evil effecting humans, many opportunities to make good choices would be lost. I mean, lets face it, if the only evil we ever encountered was human evil, then there would be many of us who would never be confronted with a proper moral dilemma, and since God wants us to reach Him freely, rather than simply having created us loving Him (a contradiction) natural disasters, illness and accidents exists in order that we may have the opportunity to reach Him.

Well I'd be fine skipping life and going straight to heaven, and I'd be fine without free will too, so long as I'm feeling good. Feeling good is all that matters. And plenty of choices to make good decisions would remain. Rather than countless attempts to do good by saving and improving lives, often failing, we'd all get to focus on creative pursuits, or body build and run or swim or cycle, or play games of intelligence like chess. Whatever floats your boat.

Originally Posted by Valden

This answer shows you really don't understand just what a big deal God is if He does exist; a maximally great being who gave you the free choice to embrace him or reject Him. That really is the greatest gift He could have given us; the opportunity to come to freely love the greatest possible being.

Not much of a free choice if bugger all evidence is left behind. It's demanding that scientific analysis be thrown away in favour of faith, for some that's impossible. I tried faith as a child. I grew up and found it more and more difficult to be faithful. Science is a part of my personality.

Originally Posted by boofhead

May I add that to God, the death of a human is not a death as we see it. We are locked in the box of life, with all its limitations. God knows what lies before, after and outside death. We do not. Imagine we are looking at a butterfly emerging from a cocoon. The animal does not know what comes after. It is in a state of unpleasantry during this transitional period. If it relies on everything it [I]knows[/] then of course it thinks the transition must be negative.
I've seen a few people die by natural causes by now. One sticks out, my mother-in-law who died a few years ago. She never complained. In fact during my life she never complained about anything, ever. She was like this happy lady who would always accept me and always leave me feeling good about myself. The last time I saw her she could barely breathe. But she told me she was OK even when I told her she was not.
Her life has seared a message in my brain, about what so many people see as important, versus what actually is important.

Death may not be so bad, but there's a lot of needless suffering. Also, importance is a subjective thing, until someone gets rock-solid evidence of God's priorities.