Pay to play, USA force British army to upgrade it's Apache fleet or face obsolescence. Edit: Maybe not

[Adar]

This is a good example of why it is important to have a domestic industry and full control over maintenance of military assets.

Full article
Britain’s Apache gunships have been in use since 2001, seeing action in Afghanistan - where current pilots include Prince Harry - and in Libya.

Despite the helicopters’ successes on the frontline, defence sources suggested that the Army Air Corps fleet of 66 Apaches could eventually be cut to around 50 aircraft fit for operations.

Britain’s AH-64D helicopters face becoming redundant because the US has decided to stop using the AH-64D model and adopt a newer variant, the AH-64E.

That means essential technical support for the British Apache fleet will be withdrawn from 2017.

The British army haven't scheduled to retire it's Apache fleet until 2040 but limited funds also mean that they are unable to conduct major upgrades without fleet reductions.

Edit: New question. Is the Telegraph just talking crap on this?

[Stavroforos]

I suppose most countries which operate the helicopter will face the same problem then, my own included.

[Adar]

I suppose most countries which operate the helicopter will face the same problem then, my own included.

I am sure they'll write you a loan to switch to the Tiger instead .

[Stavroforos]

I am sure they'll write you a loan to switch to the Tiger instead .

Indeed, I'm sure in a couple of years we'll see a "surprising" influx of German and French military technology. In any case, Tiger looks lame, I'd rather keep the Apache on that principal alone.

[removeduser_4536284751384]

Indeed, I'm sure in a couple of years we'll see a "surprising" influx of German and French military technology. In any case, Tiger looks lame, I'd rather keep the Apache on that principal alone.

There's always the Mangusta.

[Caelius]

This is a good example of why it is important to have a domestic industry and full control over maintenance of military assets.

Except....that's exactly what the UK does have regarding the Apache. If that article weren't so crappy you would've known that the UK has a license to build and support their version of the Apache however they see fit.

What is it with you trying to take potshots at US defense arrangements? Sweden doesn't produce it's own attack helicopter but I wouldn't doubt for a second that you'd be advocating it (or something like the Tiger) as some viable replacement.

[Father Jack]

Britain actually uses a variant of the AH-64D, the AugustaWestland Apache which is built in England.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AgustaWestland_Apache

[Adar]

Britain actually uses a variant of the AH-64D, the AugustaWestland Apache which is built in England.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AgustaWestland_Apache

The question is if they are able to maintain them independently which doesn't seem to be the case according to the Telegraph.

[legate]

This article is complete .

The UK builds and maintains its own Apache fleet, built in the UK by Augusta Westland.

Also the UK version has better optics than the US version, we actualy gave the US the better optics for their's, I should know I work in the industry.

[Adar]

This article is complete .

The UK builds and maintains its own Apache fleet, built in the UK by Augusta Westland.

Also the UK version has better optics than the US version, we actualy gave the US the better optics for their's, I should know I work in the industry.

The topic is now revised in accordance with your and FA:s comments.

[PointOfViewGun]

Ironic that they cancelled Comanche program to direct the money towards updating Apaches. I was disappointed that they cancelled the Comanches.

[Condottiere 40K]

Even if it's a fabricated story, the Europeans should take the initiative and start developing their own helicopter gunships, assuming they still see a role for it in twenty years time.

[Odenat]

Even if it's a fabricated story, the Europeans should take the initiative and start developing their own helicopter gunships, assuming they still see a role for it in twenty years time.

In fact, some European countries can no longer afford airforce according to the top EU military officer. With European economies collapsing, money goes to the basic needs such as oil, food, cheap Chinese goods

Therefore, spending billions on manufacturing helicopter gunships won't be a good investment. Buying them will be a better option for EU countries.

In the meantime, Turkey started manufacturing its own attack helicopters. They have been shortlisted for South Korea, Pakistan also is in talks to buy them.

http://en-maktoob.news.yahoo.com/eu-...-business.html
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/mil...=238&nid=35972

[Comrade_Rory]

So we're all agreed that the article is nonsense then?

As far as I'm aware, a load of money was put into building these British copies of the Apache for the sole purpose of allowing Britain to not depend on US maintenance and if they were going to upgrade (Which I see no reason why they'd need to. The Apache is a work of art) the choice would be to either fork out a hell of a lot more money to copy the next generation of American attack-helicopter, which would continue Britain's ability to operate and maintain their helicopters independently OR for a cheaper price, buy the American ones which would be cheaper but force Britain to have to go to America constantly to ask for the manual or whatever.

As great as the Apache is, however, I do feel it would be in our best interest to pursue more joint-European projects. It makes things much easier and cheaper in the end.

Anyway, isn't the Cobra still in service and has remained a pretty effective machine for all these years?

[Captain Jin]

Yes the Marine Corps uses the Cobra which became the Super Cobra and is now the Viper. It's been very useful as a CAS platform, but even the newest iteration, which is impressive, isn't on the same level as the Apache. But the Corps uses it for its size and ease of storage because it's meant to be used by seaborne expeditionary forces. I love the Cobra personally, but the Apache is damned impressive.

[Markas]

Yes the Marine Corps uses the Cobra which became the Super Cobra and is now the Viper.

I think it's great the USMC is consulting GI Joe and Cobra over it's renaming on equipment

[nemgod]

Perhaps Britain should instead create jobs by designing and building our own equivalent of the Apache. Maybe make a better model and try to sell it around the world which would bring in more money for us.

[Comrade_Rory]

Yes the Marine Corps uses the Cobra which became the Super Cobra and is now the Viper. It's been very useful as a CAS platform, but even the newest iteration, which is impressive, isn't on the same level as the Apache. But the Corps uses it for its size and ease of storage because it's meant to be used by seaborne expeditionary forces. I love the Cobra personally, but the Apache is damned impressive.

I've always loved the look of the Cobras. There's something so simple and awesome about it's appearance.

Perhaps Britain should instead create jobs by designing and building our own equivalent of the Apache. Maybe make a better model and try to sell it around the world which would bring in more money for us.

Well there are a very few select people who could design one and there is probably enough people in the profession needed for building helicopter parts already. This isn't World War II where we need to mass produce every single thing possible because we're losing them so quickly.
In regards to selling them, it's a gamble and a very expensive one during a financial crisis at that. Look at the Challenger tanks... they cost a lot of money to make a pretty damn good tank (well, the II was good) which is up there with the best MBTs in the world but practically nobody bought it.

[mrmouth]

The Cobra always had the reputation for being an absolute beast. I dont think it had any more armor, but it just got in the air and stayed in the air. And I think it had a better rate of fire and payload over the Apache - which was kind of finicky. But the latter fits what the Army wanted to do in having something with long range capabilities, with a particular eye on the 101st and what they can do in being able to move a lot of people over a long distance in conventional rotary aircraft.

Id be interested in an article about the Viper and if they put any thought into the V22 coming down the pipes, with its own long range capabilities.

So the Cobra was the overall better CAS platform. It's wide spread cannon was tailored to engage enemy personnel and soft targets. And the Apache is a precise hunter with a particular talent in blowing the turrets off tanks at a mile away, when you can get it in the air.

And the Marine ACOs are studs. A lot also ground tour with infantry or a tank battalion as a FAC, so they learn the air control role as well. That is significant to their job back in the cockpit.

[I WUB PUGS]

The Cobra is a more than capable program. In it's present state is a top 5 attack helicopter. The Apache though is on a whole new level. Couple the Longbow with a Kiowa scouting and it's pointless to field armor as an enemy.

Considering the US just got the Longbows all up and running, and the Brits have nothing but Longbows, I don't see the point to upgrading. Its not like they already don't hit the target 99.99% of the time with those Hellfires.

We seem to upgrade anymore simply just because.

Now as for the Cobra, it isn't like its an upgrade to an existing airframe. Its all new, so are the Venom/Hueys. Apart from similar shape, the latest Hueys and Cobras have nothing in common with the old ones.