Why would the Pope hate me for giving him Venice???

**draig glas cysefin** · December 05, 2012, 09:02 PM

So... I haven't played M2TW since forever, because the unit movement was always blocky and cav charges suck. But I recently said "what the heck" and fired up an old single-player Sicily Grand Campaign I had saved.

Anyway, the thick and thin of my problem is this: I have continually been the Papal States' closest ally, and at full or 1 cross short of full papal approval - and worked hard to keep it that way. Then, finally, I won my seemingly unending war with Venice.

Now, I don't usually play the game to win by the campaign victory conditions, but instead gain control of just enough territories (and the right territories) to keep anyone else from doing so and then extend gameplay indefinitely (or as long as the game will allow). So, I made the executive decision NOT to control north Italy, but instead to stick to Naples, Sicily, and most of the southern Mediterranean.

Which brings us to the ridiculous part... I decided to give Venice to the Papal States, my close ally, with whom I had an "Outstanding" Diplomatic Relation. The instant the gift was made, that standing went immediately from "outstanding" to "abysmal," while my relationship with the HRE went up to "very good." So HRE is a huge fan of me giving Venice to the Pope, but the Pope Hates me for it.

So... Any ideas on WTH is up with that?

**Kaiser Nonsense** · December 05, 2012, 09:23 PM

Sounds odd, most likely a bug, I've never even seen such thing happening before. Has anyone else seen this happening?

**PapaRosario** · December 06, 2012, 04:26 AM

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

Only way I could see you losing relations by giving a settlement to the Pope is if the settlement had negative income, which I don't think is possible. Not really sure what's going on.

Also, if you find cavalry charges to be too overpowered in Medieval 2, it's very simple to fix by just lowering horse mass in descr_mount.

**Kaiser Nonsense** · December 06, 2012, 08:43 AM

Cavalry charges are certainly well balanced. Knights were the very terrors of the battlefield.

**PapaRosario** · December 06, 2012, 09:08 AM

I agree, and I certainly have no problem with cavalry being OP, but IMO gameplay > historical accuracy. If it prevents you from enjoying the game, it's better to change it, even if it becomes less historically accurate.

**Kaiser Nonsense** · December 06, 2012, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by PapaRosario

I agree, and I certainly have no problem with cavalry being OP, but IMO gameplay > historical accuracy. If it prevents you from enjoying the game, it's better to change it, even if it becomes less historically accurate.

The only thing that bothers me about cavalry charges is that I feel abusive when I use, since the AI doesn't. The AI is stupid, he charges and leave his knights fighting. -.-

**Earl of_Duke** · December 06, 2012, 10:33 AM

Long time player/lurker, first time poster -- this question finally brought me out of the woodwork.

I've had this happen a couple of times. I think it's like a wrap-around effect; it happened in games in which I had been lavishing gifts of cash and lands on the pope, our relations were Outstanding or Perfect and one more gift of a territory or two pushed Papal delight off the scales... and into the Twilight Zone.

Definitely a bug -- one I've never seen mentioned anywhere, 'til now.

**Vissewalde rex de Gerzika** · December 06, 2012, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by Earl of_Duke

Long time player/lurker, first time poster -- this question finally brought me out of the woodwork.

I've had this happen a couple of times. I think it's like a wrap-around effect; it happened in games in which I had been lavishing gifts of cash and lands on the pope, our relations were Outstanding or Perfect and one more gift of a territory or two pushed Papal delight off the scales... and into the Twilight Zone.

Definitely a bug -- one I've never seen mentioned anywhere, 'til now.

Well, thats a first hearing for me, might be related to the authority bug where if you get too many - authority your king suddenly gets 10 authority.

**draig glas cysefin** · December 06, 2012, 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by Earl of_Duke

Long time player/lurker, first time poster -- this question finally brought me out of the woodwork.

I've had this happen a couple of times. I think it's like a wrap-around effect; it happened in games in which I had been lavishing gifts of cash and lands on the pope, our relations were Outstanding or Perfect and one more gift of a territory or two pushed Papal delight off the scales... and into the Twilight Zone.

Definitely a bug -- one I've never seen mentioned anywhere, 'til now.

Well, at least now I know it's got to be something in one of the game files, which means it can be isolated and fixed. On the flip side though, I have neither the time nor inclination at the moment to go sorting through thousands of lines of yet another TW game's text files.

Originally Posted by Consulo

I will tell you this. I have experienced negative outcomes when it had to do with giving allies territories, especially allies I share borders with. If you give them a settlement that gives them a big boost, it may push them towards whatever their victory conditions are and they may take a pot shot at you if they think they can. Considering the Papal States are kind of finicky anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if this is an omen of things to come for you. They may wish to militarily expand south.

I'm really only concerned because I worked so hard to build up the alliance with Rome, but I still have a save from before the gift that I'm running on now. It just sucks because I just want my allies to be stronger, and it apparently won't let me make them so.

Concerning the possibility of the Pope deciding to move south: let him try... Between me fending off the Milanese for him, and keeping HRE out of Italy through strategic diplomacy and border buffering, he has stayed in power thus far only through my good graces. I'd almost hate to see how things would ever play out for him if he decided to bite the hand that feeds him...

**Consulo** · December 06, 2012, 10:58 AM

I will tell you this. I have experienced negative outcomes when it had to do with giving allies territories, especially allies I share borders with. If you give them a settlement that gives them a big boost, it may push them towards whatever their victory conditions are and they may take a pot shot at you if they think they can. Considering the Papal States are kind of finicky anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if this is an omen of things to come for you. They may wish to militarily expand south.

**Consulo** · December 06, 2012, 08:29 PM

Your best bet would be to stack your border settlements against Rome, and start churning out Cardinals. That will generally allow for renewable papal approval and alliance stability. I wouldn't say this kind of thing is a bug though. The A.I.'s concern is to stop you from victory. Even your allies will have hardcoded motives against your success, and they will become manifest at some point. The Pope can be a real bastard when it comes to this too. Pray he doesn't attack as you'll be excommunicated AND lose standing with every catholic faction. That said, IF he does attack, you can take Rome and force the Pope into a peace treaty, alliance, and military access. It is a pseudo-vassalage, and really handy. It usually comes to that in my Byzantine campaigns because the Pope doesn't particularly like the Orthodox.

**Earl of_Duke** · December 07, 2012, 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by Consulo

I wouldn't say this kind of thing is a bug though. The A.I.'s concern is to stop you from victory. Even your allies will have hardcoded motives against your success, and they will become manifest at some point. The Pope can be a real bastard when it comes to this too.

I'm pretty sure the times it happened to me I'd already won the game.

To OP: just wait a turn or three 'til your relations drop a bit and then try the gift again, or charge him a small fee; I'll bet it's accepted with no problems.

**Maklodes** · December 07, 2012, 01:45 AM

My theory: the Pope in this case is actually a zealous reformer who believes that the temporal dominion of the church is corrupting its spiritual mission. By giving more land to the papal states -- especially a rich commercial hub like Venice -- you're eroding the church's true values of poverty, humility, chastity, etc.