Preview: At the heart and ends of Catholic Europe: a journey through the Kingdoms of Bohemia, Hungary and Poland

[NikeBG]

Lucky for us, our Soviet occup... er I mean liberators stayed here in Hungary for enough time to oversee the translation of the majority of the books on this subject, therefore there is ample room for navigation regarding sources.

Oh, they've made quite some progress since Soviet times. Especially in regards to Volga Bulgaria, which seems quite stunning (though the progress in the steppes is quite big as well).

[HTVfanatic]

This is great guys, I didn't know I could get more excited for this mod. Well done!

[Stark1]

I compared inner Asia Minor to Transylvania, and Transylvania has much more PSF's than Asia Minor. I know those parts in Asia Minor were pretty arid and desolate, but since Transylvania is described as very depopulated and forested shouldn't they be roughly equal?

Or are PSF's in Asia Minor bigger cities, thus richer than small villages of Transylvania?

[Landil]

I compared inner Asia Minor to Transylvania, and Transylvania has much more PSF's than Asia Minor. I know those parts in Asia Minor were pretty arid and desolate, but since Transylvania is described as very depopulated and forested shouldn't they be roughly equal?

Or are PSF's in Asia Minor bigger cities, thus richer than small villages of Transylvania?

Most of the PSFs in Transylvania represent castles and small towns, while Asia Minor counted many large cities, but fewer towns in total. There is also the factor of historical records, which often lack for regions like Asia Minor.

[Stark1]

Oh, interesting. I can't wait the release, this will be amazing.

[Slaytaninc]

Someone can delete this if it's not relevant, but what exactly allowed the Steppe powers to construct such large cities?

Were they basically just large nomad camps that would swell in population for much of the year only to shrink when not needed, or where they inhabited basically by settled peoples concentrated by the Steppe powers?

I mean I've heard that all it took for Sarai to shrink down to little more than a village was it being sacked by Timur.

[Landil]

The population estimates for the entire Carpathian basin is around 1,5-2 million people with Transylvania being around 250,000-350,000 depending on which estimate you prefer as none of these numbers are absolutely concrete (Landil my dear friend I do believe to estimate Transylvania to be more around the 200,000 mark if I am correct) with the largest towns being around 5,000-10,000 inhabitants in Transylvania

I don't think I've ever estimated the population of Transylvania, only of the Kingdom of Hungary as a whole. As can be expected of me, I now have done an estimation (after about two hours of research), which gave me an estimate of 250.000 people in Transylvania around 1080 AD, out of a total of 1,46 million for the Kingdom of Hungary. I also estimated the population figures for the period just before the Black Death struck the region, which give ca. 630.000 for Transylvania and a total of 4,21 million for the Kingdom of Hungary.

where as the Golden Horde capital of Saraj is estimated to have around 500,000-600,000 inhabitants(!) in the 14th century.

If we would follow early 20th century estimates, then yes. I cannot agree with such a high figure however, according to my calculations the city of New Saraj would have had about 150.000 inhabitants at its zenith.

Don't worry we have a team that is devoted to estimating the in-game income of all the PSFs in game so that the quantity-quality gap can be breached. For instance I'd wager that the income of a single steppe PSF might be worth about 4-5 PSFs in Europe based on reality.

That entire team consisting of me, me and me.

Someone can delete this if it's not relevant, but what exactly allowed the Steppe powers to construct such large cities?

Were they basically just large nomad camps that would swell in population for much of the year only to shrink when not needed, or where they inhabited basically by settled peoples concentrated by the Steppe powers?

These large cities only came around during the Mongol rule of the area. The Mongols brought with them architects from Greater Iran, who built for them cities to match the splendour of those already found in the Middle East. From what remains of the city of Sarai for example, one can see mostly straight streets, a clear sign of it having been a planned city rather than an organic one. The economical possibilities that these cities provided, drove many of the region's inhabitants, who had until then lived mostly rural lives, to settle there. Turkish and Mongol tribes that remained nomadic will likely have set up their camps just outside the city several times a year as well, to stock up on supplies that they could not get from the countryside. I think that it is fair to say that the cities would indeed have swollen in population at certain times in the year, but there will also have been a large permanent population.

I mean I've heard that all it took for Sarai to shrink down to little more than a village was it being sacked by Timur.

I don't think so. While Timur's pillaging will have had some effect, we should not ascribe the downfall of the city just to him. For example, the Domesday Book of 1086-7 gives us a good image of the effect that the Harrowing of the North had on regions like Yorkshire. This Harrowing of the North is often described as a terribly violent and devastating event, yet at most it caused some cities to lose about a third of their population, and the countryside perhaps up to 10-15% in places. It will likely have been much the same with the various Mongol conquests, with the sources mentioning millions of dead during a single event being obvious propaganda.

Of course, we cannot deny that Timur's actions will have caused a lot of dead, certainly when it concerns such a huge city like Sarai. Most likely, several tens of thousands died, and many more fled to the countryside. Another devastating factor however, and this must never be understated, is the Black Death, which struck the region just a few decades before Timur's arrival. This must have caused great losses in the crowded city of Sarai and famines in the years afterwards will have been common because much of the land lay fallow. When Timur came, the city might have recuperated somewhat, but his arrival will likely have been the final blow to fell the city. Most people will not have returned to Sarai, and gradually fewer and fewer inhabitants would remain to live in a city that was slowly decaying around them.


If you don't believe any/some of the above, I quote Diodredai:

Landil is absolutely correct.

[escho]

the part with vlachs migration is stunning ... same for "transhumanta" represating a large part of people involved and Székelys being native ... all i can sey is +1 rep to acuracy...but u know me i'm a nationalist flamer )

[Diodredai]

the part with vlachs migration is stunning ... same for "transhumanta" represating a large part of people involved and Székelys being native ... all i can sey is +1 rep to acuracy...but u know me i'm a nationalist flamer )

I detect only but a tad bit of sarcasm.

We are a mod based on historical accuracy, so feel free to share your concerns regarding inaccuracies that you may find in our mod.

That being said, feel free to voice your concerns in detail - we always welcome academic discourse on our forums.

Understandably I believe that purely based on the coincidence that as my banner and my post would suggest [the fact that I am Hungarian] - you believe I am biased regarding this period of history (namely the Vlachs).

I can only defend myself by saying that I actually championed the creation of the two distinct Vlach regions in the middle ages (Moldavia and Wallachia) as previously the region was one distinctly Cuman region, and I hope to somehow add the Principalities as emergent factions in DotS once we are finished with the initial release! (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=527568)

Regarding trancehumance - I don't quite understand the problem with that. It is a widely accepted fact that a majority of the Vlach population in the middle ages practiced this way of life.

It seems to me that there is a misconception that living such a way of life would somehow diminish(?) the accomplishments of the Vlach peoples? Would you elaborate on why you find that 'stunning'?

That is the equivalent of saying the Scythians were primitives without a culture due to the fact that according to Herodotus they lived a nomadic way of life as opposed to a settled one [yet they produced some of the most beautiful pieces of jewelry and gold ornaments known to man].

It is also a widely accepted fact in the international community that a majority of the Vlachs in Transylvania migrated to the area sometime in the 1200's. That does not by any means mean that we are stating that there were absolutely no Vlachs whatsoever in Transylvania: we merely are saying that a large number of Vlachs did migrate in that period and that is from when we can start to trace the emergence of a distinct national identity - it is also the first time that we may trace the Vlachs in historical documents of the era in Transylvania. [Thus theory becomes provable from that point onward]

Regarding the Szeklers being natives, please examine the definition of native:
"One of the original inhabitants or lifelong residents of a place."
Again, I'd like to emphasize that does not mean that the Carpathian basin was exclusively inhabited by Szeklers [as it was most certainly without a doubt NOT], but during our time-frame we can without a doubt state that they made up a size-able portion of the population, and are one of the distinct ethnic groups of the region that have inhabited their territory for quite some time [at least centuries], making them natives. They most likely had a different name for themselves, and their language and customs were without a doubt quite different. The term native is used here to describe one of the ethnic groups that was present for quite some time in Transylvania prior to the start of the mod.

As soon as I am given concrete evidence (as in archaeological evidence, written documentation that specifically without a shred of doubt refers to the Vlachs in Transylvania other than the Gesta Hungarorum [which, regarding it's authenticity was described by Martyn Rady (a British scholar) as "[Anonmyous's] account pretends to give a historically-grounded account of early Hungarian history... but does in fact nothing of the sort. Anonymus's account is essentially a ‘toponymic romance’ that seeks to explain place-names by reference to imagined events and persons. Although he gets the names of the earliest Hungarian rulers right, as well as some of the early tribal chieftains, he has the Hungarians beating Slavonic and Romanian leaders whose names are not attested to anywhere else, as well as fighting the Cumans and even the Romans") proving that the Vlachs were without a doubt present in Transylvania prior to the age in which the Gesta Hungarorum was written (the 1200's) I will change the description of this preview to the 'native Vlachs' until then, we will state that which we know.

If you would like to read further upon this subject I'd suggest you read international volumes concerning both the Vlachs and the Szeklers, as both Hungarian and Romanian volumes are full of distorted nationalistic nonsense.

Cheers,
Diodredai

[Diglytron]

Brilliant preview. Nice read and awsome screenshots. Love the details. One question however, as much as I like DOTS, I really dislike the diffecult and to historical names of the settlements. I really personally don't care what kind of diffecult name it is and I would prefer to see the names that are more in common. As it makes it easier to understand for a lot of people and more fun to play aswell.

[Diodredai]

Brilliant preview. Nice read and awsome screenshots. Love the details. One question however, as much as I like DOTS, I really dislike the diffecult and to historical names of the settlements. I really personally don't care what kind of diffecult name it is and I would prefer to see the names that are more in common. As it makes it easier to understand for a lot of people and more fun to play aswell.

Thanks
Actually we did a lot of work on getting all of the in-game PSF & region capital names in a medieval archaic form for each faction and region, however it would be fairly simple and easy to release a subversion patch where all the names of the settlements would revert to the modern day name.

I must warn you however that doing so could take you out of immersion quite a bit, as Constantinople for example would be Istanbul and areas which during the middle ages were Cuman or Byzantine domains would turn into settlements with Serbian, Albanian, Russian and or other names.

As for releasing a patch in which the settlement names turn into common English names for the various towns: a majority of the map would still be in the archaic version as I highly doubt that the English language has a common version of less important settlements (like settlements that ceased to exist during the middle ages).

[Diglytron]

Thanks
Actually we did a lot of work on getting all of the in-game PSF & region capital names in a medieval archaic form for each faction and region, however it would be fairly simple and easy to release a subversion patch where all the names of the settlements would revert to the modern day name.

I must warn you however that doing so could take you out of immersion quite a bit, as Constantinople for example would be Istanbul and areas which during the middle ages were Cuman or Byzantine domains would turn into settlements with Serbian, Albanian, Russian and or other names.

As for releasing a patch in which the settlement names turn into common English names for the various towns: a majority of the map would still be in the archaic version as I highly doubt that the English language has a common version of less important settlements (like settlements that ceased to exist during the middle ages).

Thanks for the detailed and good explained answer+rep.

I understand that settlements like constantinople can't be called Istanbul, thats obviously. However, settlements like Allepo, Antioch, Acre, Jerusalem have way different and difficult names of which, I, never heard of to be honest.

To keep it simple and easier for people to search the names on for example wikipedia or to use the names in for example After Action Reports, it might be a smart thing to change them so that everyone understands it if they are talking about specific cities.

As for releasing a patch in which the settlement names turn into common English names for the various towns: a majority of the map would still be in the archaic version as I highly doubt that the English language has a common version of less important settlements (like settlements that ceased to exist during the middle ages).

I think for example the Stainless Steel modification found an good mid-way in being historically, and tough also follow the popular culture. I understand you guys are all very into the regions you develop or mod, but thats not for everyone of us. And for me, personally it gets me out of the atmosphere of the game if I'm fighting in Hungary and I don't know the name of an single city.

Which is sad aswell, cause I use the cities and castles out of previous modifications A LOT when I am at holiday.

Thanks for the good answer again

[Stath's]

damn wow!

[Maxattack76]

I need a new pair of shorts after this preview...

[Slaytaninc]

I love the archaic names.

Really let's you go in and embrace the history and feel like you are actually commanding troops from historical nations.

[Landil]

I love the archaic names.

Really let's you go in and embrace the history and feel like you are actually commanding troops from historical nations.

Did you miss my post, or do you just not care to reply?

[Dino Nuggets]

Wow keep up the great work.

[The Norseman]

Fantastic!

[Pyres Δt Varanasi]

Really Beautiful OMG

[mr_president]

Nice preview.