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  1. #1

    Default Exactly what is wrong with freedom of religion

    An Arizona judge has sentenced a polygamist to 45 days in county jail for having sex with a teenager he took as his third wife.

    The sentence disappointed authorities in Kingman, Arizona, who had hoped a harsher punishment for defendant Kelly Fischer would discourage others in the church from taking teenage wives.

    Fischer was the first of seven members of the Fundamentalist Latter-day Saints (FLDS) to be tried for plural marriages to minors.

    "I don't know if we've sent a strong enough message to these people," said Gary Engels, an investigator with the Mohave County Attorney's office.

    About 7,000 FLDS members live in the twin border towns of Colorado City, Arizona, and Hildale, Utah.

    Members of the group, which broke with mainstream Mormons in the 1890s over polygamy, believe that only those in plural marriages can reach the highest level of heaven.

    Warren Jeffs, the church leader or "prophet," is a federal fugitive from charges in both states stemming from his alleged arrangement of "celestial marriages" between teenage girls and older, married men.
    http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/08/03/po...ced/index.html

    Seriously, what the hell? Has religion become such a farce that it is used as an excuse to get it on with several women at a time and still feel moral?

    There are seven thousand of these people in Colorado City and Hildale alone. I know I shouldn't judge all religions by one, but this marks a growing trend in using a religion to do whatever the hell you want. At least atheism still sticks to normal moral codes...

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  2. #2
    Bovril's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Exactly what is wrong with freedom of religion

    Ah, the concept of 'normal moral codes', what an intereting conundrum. Whilst I fully accept that FLDS coerces minors into sex and marriage with adults, and that it encourages isolationism, and authoritarian ideology, I would be hesitant to label it 'morally abnormal' for two reasons.
    A) the morrally abnormal is also in many significant cases the morally progressive by which I mean the code for living which will maximise human contentment).
    B) What is 'moraly abnormal' today will be moraly normal tomorrow, rendering traditional values subjective, and ensuring the relevance of the apparantly deviant.

  3. #3
    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    Default Re: Exactly what is wrong with freedom of religion

    Um, Justinian, basically its fundamentalist Mormons. No one ever said they ever made sense, in the end; so mcuh of their doctrine is made up of spewed racism and misogynism its insane....

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    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Exactly what is wrong with freedom of religion

    Quote Originally Posted by the Grim Squeaker
    Um, Justinian, basically its fundamentalist Mormons. No one ever said they ever made sense, in the end; so mcuh of their doctrine is made up of spewed racism and misogynism its insane....
    On the contrary, it makes perfect sense . . . if you are the man! An interesting consequence of the gay marriage movement will be plural marriages. After all, if you say its ok for Adam and Steve to marry, there is no logical impairment to Adam, Eve and Steve getting hitched.

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    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    Default Re: Exactly what is wrong with freedom of religion

    Actually yes there is. Adam and Steve is still a loving couple on an equal footing; if we introduce a third party can we even consider for more than a moment the idea that the three of them love each other to the same and equal degree?

  6. #6

    Default Re: Exactly what is wrong with freedom of religion

    Think that is bad?

    http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/8-3-2006-104373.asp
    An admitted pedophile in suburban Cleveland told a judge Wednesday that he did nothing wrong because having sex with children is part of his religion and is therefore protected by civil rights laws. Phillip Distasio, 34, of Rocky River, OH, told the judge that his apartment was a religious sanctuary, and smoking marijuana and having sex with children are sacred rituals. Distasio was appearing in court for a pretrial hearing for 74 charges of rape, drugs, and pandering obscenity to minors.

    Distasio calls himself a "pagan friar," and he is representing himself in his trial. He told the judge, "I'm a pedophile. I've been a pedophile for 20 years. The only reason I'm charged with rape is that no one believes a child can consent to sex. The role of my ministry is to get these cases out of the courtrooms." Distasio said that his church is called Arcadian Fields Ministries, and some of his victims are actually members of his congregation.

    Cuyahoga County Prosecutor Bill Mason said that officials were alerted to a possible problem when Distasio wanted to write a blog for the Lakewood Library. Staff there alerted Rocky River police, who began investigating and later arrested Distasio for molesting two disabled boys he was tutoring at his home. The Cleveland Plain Dealer reported that he is also accused of raping seven other autistic children at a Cleveland school for special-needs kids. The boys were all under 13 years old except one, which carries a mandatory sentence of life in prison if Distasio is convicted.

    Perhaps the most disturbing element of the case against Distasio is that he was running a school from his apartment, called Class Cutters, that offered a curriculum for unique children. Students and parents alike chose the school from Distasio’s website as a place for special-needs children. But prosecutors say that the school was in essence a trap set to snare one victim after the next into Distasio’s den of sadism. Police found journals at Distasio’s apartment in which he described in detail his sexual escapades, and kept child pornography and videotapes of himself engaged in sex with boys. According to the journals, two of the boys were so helpless they could never tell anyone what Distasio had done to them.

    "Like all predators," said Mason, "he used this one child to bring other children to him and that’s what was happening—that’s how he got his second victim." Prosecutors believe there may be even more victims. Meanwhile, Distasio told the judge that "not all pedophilia is bad, and sex [with boys] can be healthy." He says that his right to religious freedom is being challenged with these accusations, and pedophilia isn’t wrong according to his religious beliefs. But the judge told him that during his trial he must confine his arguments to secular laws. "If you want to challenge the law, that’s your right to do so," said Judge Kathleen Sutula. "But we’re going to follow the laws of Ohio in this courtroom."

    Distasio’s trial is scheduled to begin September 11.

  7. #7
    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Exactly what is wrong with freedom of religion

    Quote Originally Posted by the Grim Squeaker
    Actually yes there is. Adam and Steve is still a loving couple on an equal footing; if we introduce a third party can we even consider for more than a moment the idea that the three of them love each other to the same and equal degree?
    Who are we to cast doubt on the love they profess for each other? Why that would be down right prejuduical. But since when did love have anything to do with marriage? Perhaps some activist judge will come up with a 'love test' before anyone can marry. I thought it was just a lucrative contractual relationship between two people.

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    Pra's Avatar Sir Lucious Left Foot
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    Default Re: Exactly what is wrong with freedom of religion

    What's wrong with polygamy? I think I should be able to marry 5 women if I can get away with it? I mean, I'll have to deal with 5x the headache, but that's my problem, no?

    Also, we should be able to marry simple objects, and animals as well!

    (I am completely serious here)
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    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    Default Re: Exactly what is wrong with freedom of religion

    One of the main differences is the size; the fundamentalist mormons have about 7,000 (and 0.1% of this is going on trial) where he has how many? Scope of the problem is a whole different scale between them.

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    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    Default Re: Exactly what is wrong with freedom of religion

    BWB, its meant to be the ultimate symbol of commitment. 3 people in a marriage is likely to lead to rivalry and in love rivalry can quite easily lead to violence. Not good, hm?

  11. #11

    Default Re: Exactly what is wrong with freedom of religion

    Whats wrong with taking multiple wives? Two girls for every boy....The Beach Boys even had it right.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Exactly what is wrong with freedom of religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Justinian
    Seriously, what the hell? Has religion become such a farce that it is used as an excuse to get it on with several women at a time and still feel moral?

    There are seven thousand of these people in Colorado City and Hildale alone. I know I shouldn't judge all religions by one, but this marks a growing trend in using a religion to do whatever the hell you want. At least atheism still sticks to normal moral codes...
    what's wrong with poligmy? its a person who wants to gave more than one wife, and three women who want to be married to a guy who has two other wifes. He didnt force anyone and it was all consensual. So whats the problem?

  13. #13
    Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Exactly what is wrong with freedom of religion

    Quote Originally Posted by Justinian
    http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/08/03/po...ced/index.html

    Seriously, what the hell? Has religion become such a farce that it is used as an excuse to get it on with several women at a time and still feel moral?

    There are seven thousand of these people in Colorado City and Hildale alone. I know I shouldn't judge all religions by one, but this marks a growing trend in using a religion to do whatever the hell you want. At least atheism still sticks to normal moral codes...
    45 days in jail???
    It's easy to imagine pedophiles 'seeing the light' in this religion and moving to Arizona. Or is it a cult? Is there a difference?

  14. #14
    Katrina's Avatar Brrrrrrr...
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    Default Re: Exactly what is wrong with freedom of religion

    This is rediculous. There is point, where if a religion crosses the line of the law, then it cannot be allowed. Laws and restrictions are set for a reason, and no matter how insane you may go for not being able to practice your religion, that has just got to be too bad because as a formed society, we need to set lines to keep our world in check. That is not degrading freedom of religion, the religion is taking advantage of their right to freedom. No, alright, i don't suppose having a religion is taking advantage, it is just that if they are going to live on the face of our earth, they are going to have to tone down their religious beleifs to fit our society, or be a convict in a jail for it, but trying to bend the law and get out of the trouble you rightfully should be in is just rediculous.

  15. #15
    Tom Paine's Avatar Mr Common Sense
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    Default Re: Exactly what is wrong with freedom of religion

    Believing something is one thing; practicing it is another. Is that what you are trying to say, kat?

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    Katrina's Avatar Brrrrrrr...
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    Default Re: Exactly what is wrong with freedom of religion

    Quote Originally Posted by the Grim Squeaker
    Believing something is one thing; practicing it is another. Is that what you are trying to say, kat?
    Well i suppose somewhat. However, practicing certain rituals are often times just as important in a religion as beleiving in the religion. So it is not as if practicing a religion is not as a neccisary, because is many cases, it is. So i wouldn't exactly say they are seperate ideas too much. It is just that once your religious practices are interfacing with the law, then i suppose you are just going to have to chose between not following your rather pervasive rituals, or attempting to follow them even under scrutiny and punishment by the law. Which can bring you back to the idea that questions if the practices are such an important procedure that you will not be following your faith adequately? That is where you could define beleiving something as one thing and practicing something as another.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Exactly what is wrong with freedom of religion

    I think it's the having sex with a teenager coupled with the third wife thing that's being viewed as the problem, if you ask my opinion.

  18. #18
    MaximiIian's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Exactly what is wrong with freedom of religion

    The sex with a teenage is kinda screwy, but the polygamy not so much.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Exactly what is wrong with freedom of religion

    I have read up on the FLDS, they are not just some cult or obscure religion. They happen to be led by a very sick person. This is one waco that needs to happen.
    “Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms (of government) those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny”
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    IamthePope's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Exactly what is wrong with freedom of religion

    the 12th Century was a great time. I support a return to a one religion world, but Ecumenism seems impossible in today's world.

    "Not to know what happened before you were born is to be a child forever. For what is the time of a man, except that it should be interwoven with that memory of ancient things of a superior age?" -Marcus Tullius Cicero

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