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Thread: Some questions about the game...

  1. #21

    Default Re: Some questions about the game...

    Perhaps I did not understand you correctly or explain correctly - I'm forgetting that this works differently in the newer games. In STW and MTW, any unit leader is a potential general. He simply needs to start winning battles and gaining command stars. The little icons atop of each banner disappeared in MTW, but it still works the same.

    MTW extended this in fact and added v&vs (I think these are called "traits" in later games (?) and other stats which affect how well the general governs a province and how loyal they are to their faction leader.

  2. #22

    Default Re: Some questions about the game...

    As written above the unit leaders are much more detailed in MTW. They lack the unique banners of STW, but instead they have characteristics like piety, dread, acumen and loyalty. Furthermore they can gain traits called 'vices & virtues' similar to the family members of Rome and Medieval2. These captains can be promoted to governors of a province or gain some other offices improving their traits. So you still have the STW possibility of receiving great generals from a generic trained unit.

    And the Royal family stays the same as in STW, there is not the whole clan with dozens of family members and dozens of adopted candidates. You can still kill a faction by assassinating a few princes or killing the king in a battle. And sometimes a players dynasty simple dies because you have an impotent fool not able to impregnate his wife ...

    edit:
    And sometimes a small captain gaining high status in your kingdom can challenge your ruler by starting a Civil War. He might even become your new king, a career only possible in MTW.
    Last edited by Xerrop; December 18, 2012 at 05:18 AM.

  3. #23
    General Maximus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Some questions about the game...

    I see that, thanks for clarification. So in Shogun, there are only command stars, no other stats or traits or ancillaries like RTW onwards?

    The main challenge I see in this game are the rebels. Attack one province and they all rush deep inside your territory if they find a hole in the battle line. And that means that a player has to keep a good sized army in all border provinces, making it like a Great War battle line.
    सार्वभौम सम्राट चत्रवर्ती - भारतवर्ष
    स्वर्गपुत्र पीतसम्राट - चीन
    महाराजानाभ्याम महाराजा - पारसिक

  4. #24

    Default Re: Some questions about the game...

    Quote Originally Posted by General Maximus View Post
    I see that, thanks for clarification. So in Shogun, there are only command stars, no other stats or traits or ancillaries like RTW onwards?
    That is correct. Xerrop explained it well.

    The clan family tree in STW is fixed. Every faction get's so many heirs which mature at set dates. In MTW your faction leader marries and then produces more random heirs.

    Quote Originally Posted by General Maximus View Post
    The main challenge I see in this game are the rebels. Attack one province and they all rush deep inside your territory if they find a hole in the battle line. And that means that a player has to keep a good sized army in all border provinces, making it like a Great War battle line.
    Are you playing one of the dated campaigns such as 1530? They can be very challenging, due to the aggressive rebels yes.

  5. #25
    General Maximus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Some questions about the game...

    Quote Originally Posted by Teppo Ashigaru View Post
    That is correct. Xerrop explained it well.

    The clan family tree in STW is fixed. Every faction get's so many heirs which mature at set dates. In MTW your faction leader marries and then produces more random heirs.


    Are you playing one of the dated campaigns such as 1530? They can be very challenging, due to the aggressive rebels yes.
    Which means, Oda Nobunaga will pop up at the historical time?

    Yes, I am playing 1530. I thought it is better because of no powerful factions bordering any other, and it is good to start from the beginning.

    But rebels are really a menace. I cannot beat them unless I move armies in a Great War style 'frontier' each turn.
    सार्वभौम सम्राट चत्रवर्ती - भारतवर्ष
    स्वर्गपुत्र पीतसम्राट - चीन
    महाराजानाभ्याम महाराजा - पारसिक

  6. #26

    Default Re: Some questions about the game...

    Quote Originally Posted by General Maximus View Post
    Which means, Oda Nobunaga will pop up at the historical time?
    In the Sengkoku campaign (the original unhistorical one) You start out with Nobuhide and first heir Nobuhiro. Nobunaga is born in 1534 and takes 16 years to come of age - so that's 64 seasons. Nobunaga comes of age as a pretty epic general (like e.g. Takeda Shingen or Uesugi Kenshin), so it's obviously quite important to use him well.

    Quote Originally Posted by General Maximus View Post
    Yes, I am playing 1530. I thought it is better because of no powerful factions bordering any other, and it is good to start from the beginning.
    1530 differs from Sengoku in the province ownership and unit/building placement. The problem with 1530 is that there are lots of ronin provinces with many Sohei (monk) units and once you have a state of war with the ronin (actually a single faction) they get very bold. So it's important not to hit the ronin too soon. It's a difficult campaign, especially playing as Oda, so good luck.

    Quote Originally Posted by General Maximus View Post
    But rebels are really a menace. I cannot beat them unless I move armies in a Great War style 'frontier' each turn.
    The campaign map game in Shogun is very tactical. It's vital to establish choke points of a few easily defensible provinces and not spread your forces too thin.

    Heavy Cavalry are the only melee unit which can counter Sohei - every unit in STW has a counter unit (rock paper scissors) and HC were designed with this purpose in mind. This does not necessarily mean that HC can beat Sohei every time, it means they're the best counter.

    You could also train your own Sohei units and use them to destroy the enemies, but at 1000 koku a pop this seems like a wasteful method as you've lose many of your own in the process.

    My preferred method is either Archers, especially Cavalry Archers (Sohei units love to chase them around) or just shoot them with Teppo (also one of the few tactics available for routing them).

  7. #27

    Default Re: Some questions about the game...

    Quote Originally Posted by General Maximus View Post
    But rebels are really a menace. I cannot beat them unless I move armies in a Great War style 'frontier' each turn.
    Well lets use this point of view: With only seven factions the game would become boring without strong rebells exploring your weak borders. Especially when playing the 1530 campaign with the small clan realms spread over the large map of Japan.
    Thinking about Rome:TW and M2:TW you can basically leave your towns without garrison when bordering rebel territories. This feels somewhat unrealistic to me. STW on the other hand involves much more thinking about what provinces to conquer. You should always try to have as few frontier provinces as possible to minimize the necessary armies on your borders. As 'Teppo Ashigaru' wrote STW (and to a lesser extent MTW also) is a very tactical game both on the campaign map and on the battle map as well. It is not like Rome:TW with basically expanding constantly and crushing down the enemy with your superior overpowered faction specific elite-unit.
    Last edited by Xerrop; December 20, 2012 at 04:26 AM.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Some questions about the game...

    Quote Originally Posted by Xerrop View Post
    Well lets use this point of view: With only seven factions the game would become boring without strong rebells exploring your weak borders. Especially when playing the 1530 campaign with the small clan realms spread over the large map of Japan.
    If the game had had more clans it would have been epic. One clan every one or two provinces would have been very interesting. The Samurai Warlords mod for MTW achieves this, but it is not really a finished product and requires some considerable home modding (removal of the ships, princesses, etc) to get a balanced and playable SP game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xerrop View Post
    Thinking about Rome:TW and M2:TW you can basically leave your towns without garrison when bordering rebel territories. This feels somewhat unrealistic to me. STW on the other hand involves much more thinking about what provinces to conquer. You should always try to have as few frontier provinces as possible to minimize the necessary armies on your borders. As 'Teppo Ashigaru' wrote STW (and to a lesser extent MTW also) is a very tactical game both on the campaign map and on the battle map as well. It is not like Rome:TW with basically expanding constantly and crushing down the enemy with your superior overpowered faction specific elite-unit.
    +1

    STW is even more tactical on the campaign map than MTW - the AI factions are aggressive and utterly treacherous.

    I have been playing an Oda campaign yesterday for a few hours, every season was a pitched battle with the backstabbing Imagawa clan and when the Imagawa weren't invading Mino or Echizen, the Takeda or Mori were hitting Inaba and Kawachi in the west. I am now in an arms race with Imagawa trying to build up enough forces to expand onto a 4 province defensive line. Just when I was getting close, they invaded Mino again with Tokugawa Ieyasu, outnumbering me by nearly 3 to 1, and my Teppo units which I was counting on this time, could not fire due to rain ( I don't build armies based on teppo, I rather use them as a battle winning trump card). They fought, they lost, I had to withdraw with the remainder of the force and go under siege.

    Mikawa province is pinned down, I cannot risk moving the army from there as the Imagawa will be straight in and then into Owari which is my capital (they have been into both once already).

    In a previous defensive battle, two naginata, 1 YA, one naginata cavalry and three teppo units routed an army with an equal starred general, three times our size - which is the kind of tactical victories you need to win in order to wear down his forces and retain your numbers. STW is not MTW, you cannot rely on a low influence kings, coward vices and civil wars to win the war for you.

    This is the game I always come back to because of the pure chess like strategy. MTW complicated things unnecessarily and though it has more potential for modding, the game is simply not as balanced or logical.

  9. #29
    General Maximus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Some questions about the game...

    Ah, Shogun II has no rebels at all. All the minor clans are represented with their own individual factions and armies, and they are same as the players. Only difference is that only major clans (Takeda, Shimazu, Mori, Oda, Tokugawa, Date, Uesugi etc.) can be played. They added Ikko-Ikki as a DLC, and many more factions since then.

    Also, I just purchased Medieval TW with Viking Invasion. I saw it in a sale today, and got it immediately.

    By the way, is there an advantage in assassinating the enemy generals before battle? I assassinated a good enemy general and yet I still lost even when I outnumbered them gravely.
    सार्वभौम सम्राट चत्रवर्ती - भारतवर्ष
    स्वर्गपुत्र पीतसम्राट - चीन
    महाराजानाभ्याम महाराजा - पारसिक

  10. #30

    Default Re: Some questions about the game...

    Quote Originally Posted by General Maximus View Post
    By the way, is there an advantage in assassinating the enemy generals before battle? I assassinated a good enemy general and yet I still lost even when I outnumbered them gravely.
    Well obviously killing the general would leave the army stack in the command of an equal starred or inferior general - perhaps even a 0 star green general. It also does incur a morale penalty. This does not guarantee victory however and it's still important to consider terrain, weather and base stats of units.

    MTW was the first TW game where generals' units became much more important, due to the majority of units being non-elites and depending on the general's reputation for their valour and morale bonuses. In STW, the majority of units are elite, so it's acceptable to send 0 star generals into battle and have them gain stars through winning battles.


  11. #31
    GeorgiBG's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Some questions about the game...

    By the way my first battle in STW was a real mess and I had lost it. And really the general it's not so important the samurai's had beated me.


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