Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 32

Thread: Does an objective taste in pop music exist?

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1

    Default Does an objective taste in pop music exist?

    Following on from the objective morality debates, do objective tastes in music exist?
    An objective musical taste is a musical taste that is true regardless of societal consensus or personal opinion, under this philosophy the statement ‘the best music is pop music’ has always been true, regardless of historical, cultural or personal context, and regardless of whether or not any human beings exist to perceive it. For instance, the statement ‘the best music is whatever is on Billboard Hot 100’ was true regardless of societal consensus to the contrary in older generations, where anti-noise-ism was widespread, even if the adults had conquered and brainwashed the entire world into agreeing with them, this would have had no effect on the truth of the musical statement. What is ‘normal’ is of no consequence to objective musical tastes, they are objectively true, meaning they hold regardless of human opinion.

    If objective musical tastes exist, they must exist metaphysically, as they are outside human jurisdiction, but are perceptible to us as obligations. This requires a supernatural entity to exist, whereas under naturalism no such entity can exist. If objective musical tastes exist, naturalism is therefore false. If musical tastes exist metaphysically then, two things logically follow. First, that metaphysical entities do exist, and second that musical tastes have been set for us. Given these two points it is entirely justifiable to deduce from the metaphysical existence of objective musical tastes the existence of a metaphysical musical taster, from whom an ultimate standard of music stems. It is fairly uncontroversial that if objective musical tastes exist, God must exist. The crux of this issue is whether or not objective musical tastes do in fact exist.
    In that sense, beliefs are always about propositions about some facet of the real world being this or that. To say that I believe that "Justin Bieber is great" is also to say that "Justin Bieber is great" in the real world. Beliefs may be subjective in the sense that they occur within the mind, but that isn't the point. The point is that to believe that P, is also to claim that P is true.
    Forgive my jest, this is still a very valid comparision. Almost all of us come with hardware for enjoying music, just as we almost all come with a conscience. Over time pop music in particular has become more refined into a simple little-varying formula, just like our morality.



    So, do objective tastes in popular music exist?

  2. #2
    Himster's Avatar Praeses
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Dublin, The Peoples Republic of Ireland
    Posts
    9,838

    Default Re: Does an objective taste in pop music exist?

    Just like morality: when a society changes (slowly or quickly) taste changes too. This may just be a correlation, but I'm not so sure.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

  3. #3
    XIII's Avatar Centenarius
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Philippines
    Posts
    817

    Default Re: Does an objective taste in pop music exist?

    There's a very simple test for arguments running along these lines, namely this: are you prepared to die for your aesthetic beliefs?
    “We humans do not understand compassion. In each moment of our lives, we betray it. Aye, we know of its worth, yet in knowing we then attach to it a value, we guard the giving of it, believing it must be earned, T’lan Imass. Compassion is priceless in the truest sense of the word. It must be given freely. In abundance.
    ― Steven Erikson, Memories of Ice

    “The heart of wisdom is tolerance.”
    ― Steven Erikson, Memories of Ice

  4. #4
    Himster's Avatar Praeses
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Dublin, The Peoples Republic of Ireland
    Posts
    9,838

    Default Re: Does an objective taste in pop music exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by XIII View Post
    There's a very simple test for arguments running along these lines, namely this: are you prepared to die for your aesthetic beliefs?
    Yes.
    I risked my life (with others) and nearly died to save paintings in the basement in the National Gallery from a flood in Dublin during a flood last year when I worked there part time. The bastards still didn't renew my contract, but I'd do it again and I know I'm not the only one.

    Well as it turned out I wasn't in real danger, but I thought I was, so that has to count for something.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

  5. #5
    XIII's Avatar Centenarius
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Philippines
    Posts
    817

    Default Re: Does an objective taste in pop music exist?

    Actually, if you analyzed your actions (though I do not presume to be a psychologist, mind), it would have been your moral beliefs that would have compelled you to act (i.e. the moral belief that it is morally good to preserve works of art during a flood), not really your aesthetic beliefs.

    P.S. Kudos for saving those paintings, by the way. It was a good thing, what you did.
    “We humans do not understand compassion. In each moment of our lives, we betray it. Aye, we know of its worth, yet in knowing we then attach to it a value, we guard the giving of it, believing it must be earned, T’lan Imass. Compassion is priceless in the truest sense of the word. It must be given freely. In abundance.
    ― Steven Erikson, Memories of Ice

    “The heart of wisdom is tolerance.”
    ― Steven Erikson, Memories of Ice

  6. #6
    Himster's Avatar Praeses
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Dublin, The Peoples Republic of Ireland
    Posts
    9,838

    Default Re: Does an objective taste in pop music exist?

    Yes but I chose to save specific works for their aesthetic value not their moral value, I didn't bother going back for the others (a better paid security guard did that).
    The point is aesthetic value is a powerful compulsion in many actions, separate but not unrelated to moral compulsions.

    Has your morality ever been over-ridden by aesthetic compulsions? Such as buying art instead of donating your money to charity or something like that: be honest.

    P.S. Kudos for saving those paintings, by the way. It was a good thing, what you did
    Shut up baby, I know it. *walks away like a pimp
    Last edited by Himster; November 29, 2012 at 09:17 AM.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

  7. #7
    XIII's Avatar Centenarius
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Philippines
    Posts
    817

    Default Re: Does an objective taste in pop music exist?

    That's because paintings don't have moral value. They are not intrinsically valuable, unlike say humans who we should treat as ends in themselves and not as the means to an end.

    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    Shut up baby, I know it. *walks away like a pimp
    Haha, awesome.
    “We humans do not understand compassion. In each moment of our lives, we betray it. Aye, we know of its worth, yet in knowing we then attach to it a value, we guard the giving of it, believing it must be earned, T’lan Imass. Compassion is priceless in the truest sense of the word. It must be given freely. In abundance.
    ― Steven Erikson, Memories of Ice

    “The heart of wisdom is tolerance.”
    ― Steven Erikson, Memories of Ice

  8. #8

    Default Re: Does an objective taste in pop music exist?

    If morality really was a matter of taste, like aesthetic taste, then the rapist is doing nothing beyond being unfashionable. Why are you not out there protesting about all the violent criminals locked up in our prisons? These unfashionable deviants surely deserve as much freedom of expression as their fashionable counterparts? What am I saying! The holocaust was only unfashionable, how silly of me to believe Hitler did anything morally impermissible!

    This might sound like I am jesting (I am) but these ridiculous statements are perfectly compatible with moral subjectivism, as Theodore Schick argued:

    "Not only does subjectivism imply that everyone is morally infallible, it also implies that moral disagreement is next to impossible. Suppose Jack says that homosexuality is right, and Jill says that it's wrong. You might think that Jack and Jill disagree with one another. But you would be mistaken. According to subjective relativism, Jack is saying that he believes that homosexuality is right while Jill is saying that she believes that homosexuality is wrong. But this doesn't constitute a disagreement because neither is denying what the other is saying. In order for Jill to disagree with Jack, she would have to say that Jack doesn't believe that homosexuality is right. But it's difficult to see how she could ever be in a position to make such a claim because, presumably, no one knows Jack's mind better than Jack." http://www.secularhumanism.org/index...ge=schick_18_4

    Moral subjectivism -as Schick recognises- actually renders us unable to disagree with each other on moral issues; two opposing beliefs do not constitute a disagreement like two opposing truth claims do, one is a claim that can be falsified, the other an opinion. In other words, unless an objective moral truth claim is made (e.g: It is wrong to torture babies) it is not possible for a moral disagreement to exist. This is quite literally an assault on the fabric of human societies (both past and present): if no moral disagreement can exist then moral transgression is impossible because everyone is de facto within the moral consensus. If moral transgression is impossible then we impeach rapists, murderers and thieves inconsistently with moral subjectivism being true; they have simply acted differently to the way you would have acted.

    As we know, the number of people who hold a belief has no bearing on the truth of that belief. Societal consensus is therefore no justification for impeaching 'wrongdoers' under moral subjectivism because consensus does not equal truth. If subjectivism is true society ceases to be a moral authority over the individual transgressor. Instead, the many are simply imposing their will on the few; the rapist is morally no worse than the selfless charity worker (how can he be? moral disagreements are impossible!), he simply has the misfortune to be outnumbered by those who hold different beliefs.

    Subjectivism is clearly an untenable moral philosophy because it is inconsistent with the way we behave. Despite paying lip-service to it, I seriously doubt the atheists we see in EMM defending subjective moral values would be anything but moral realists if they found themselves in a moral dilemma.

    Objective morality is consistent with the way we behave; Schick (sorry to quote him again!) goes on to argue:

    "[...]people in different cultures arrive at different moral judgments, not because they have different views about the nature of morality, but because they have different views about the nature of reality.

    Consider the abortion controversy. Pro-life people believe that abortion is wrong while pro-choice people believe that it is right. Does this mean that they have different views about the nature of morality? No, because they both believe that murder is wrong. What they disagree about is the nature of the fetus. Is the fetus the sort of thing that can be murdered? Their disagreement, then, is about the reality of the fetus, not about the morality of murder. Since moral judgments follow from both a moral standard and certain factual beliefs, a difference in moral judgments does not necessarily imply a difference in moral standards."

    This renders the usual arguments in favour of culturally specific moral values highly problematic; is the disagreement really a moral one? As Schick affirms, moral judgements arise from a factual understanding of the world as well as moral beliefs. Two different moral judgements on the same issue may therefore arise from different factual understandings of that issue rather than fundamentally different moral beliefs.

    Indeed, paradigmatic ethical statements like "justice should be upheld" and "bravery is commendable, cowardice is not" seem present throughout human history. Schick takes these to be "self evident" truths like the self evident truths in logic, however, this is where Schick and I will part company:

    It is important to distinguish between a moral value and a moral duty. Whilst Schick may well affirm that moral values exist self-evidently, without moral duty, they exist equally to their negatives. For instance, unless a duty to behave in a certain way exists, the self evident statement "justice should be upheld" carries no more weight than its negative "justice should not be upheld". Theism provides firstly a metaphysical basis for these self-evident truths to exist (under naturalism there is none) and secondly a moral obligator in the person of God who sets us moral duties, and thus lends objective truth value to moral statements.
    Last edited by Valden; November 29, 2012 at 12:57 PM.
    So spake the Fiend, and with necessity,
    The tyrant's plea, excused his devilish deeds.
    -Paradise Lost 4:393-394

  9. #9

    Default Re: Does an objective taste in pop music exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Valden View Post
    If morality really was a matter of taste, like aesthetic taste, then the rapist is doing nothing beyond being unfashionable. Why are you not out there protesting about all the violent criminals locked up in our prisons? These unfashionable deviants surely deserve as much freedom of expression as their fashionable counterparts? What am I saying! The holocaust was only unfashionable, how silly of me to believe Hitler did anything morally impermissible!
    Morally "unfashionable" IS morally impermissible. It may not be to your liking, but nor is any of the moral standards you disagree with. And by what right do you claim your standard to be the standard?

  10. #10

    Default Re: Does an objective taste in pop music exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Valden View Post
    If morality really was a matter of taste, like aesthetic taste, then the rapist is doing nothing beyond being unfashionable.
    Actually, rape is considered fine in many parts of the world depending on context, and used to be much more accepted, especially when women had far fewer rights and were viewed as second class humans by more of the world.

    Morality is subjective like taste, though it is generally considered to be a more serious opinion than what your favorite music is.

    Why are you not out there protesting about all the violent criminals locked up in our prisons? These unfashionable deviants surely deserve as much freedom of expression as their fashionable counterparts?
    This is a false argument built on a strawman. Both are subjective is the argument, not that both are as important to society.

    What am I saying! The holocaust was only unfashionable, how silly of me to believe Hitler did anything morally impermissible!
    Again, a strawman, nobody is arguing that morality is the same in seriousness as fashion taste, just that they're both subjective.

    This might sound like I am jesting (I am) but these ridiculous statements are perfectly compatible with moral subjectivism, as Theodore Schick argued:
    No, they aren't, because while morals are subjective, people feel much more strongly about them, to the point that they will lock up others for violating them in some cases.

    Moral subjectivism -as Schick recognises- actually renders us unable to disagree with each other on moral issues; two opposing beliefs do not constitute a disagreement like two opposing truth claims do, one is a claim that can be falsified, the other an opinion.
    That is the silliest and perhaps stupidest way to argue that there are objective morals I've ever seen, this Schick guy is funny. Yes, you can have disagreement over opinions that cannot be falsified. It happens every day.

    I
    n other words, unless an objective moral truth claim is made (e.g: It is wrong to torture babies) it is not possible for a moral disagreement to exist.
    No, it's not, people have moral disagreements on just this. I mean, God killed a whole lot of babies in the Bible, tortured quite a few too, so even God is at disagreement with himself I suppose. This is a hilarious "slippery slope" argument.

    This is quite literally an assault on the fabric of human societies (both past and present): if no moral disagreement can exist then moral transgression is impossible because everyone is de facto within the moral consensus.
    Do you understand the meaning of words? Disagreement means lack of consensus. That's all. Nothing about it having to be falsifiable. If you have two people and they have different moral views, then there is a disagreement. Consensus can mean a lot of different things, from just a simple majority opinion to, well, anything I suppose a society deems it to be (used to be a majority of just men, for example). Yes, morals are subjective, yes, there is a "consensus" that is made among societies on what those morals are (and they change over time), and yes, people are then punished, sometimes quite harshly, based on this consensus.

    If moral transgression is impossible then we impeach rapists, murderers and thieves inconsistently with moral subjectivism being true; they have simply acted differently to the way you would have acted.
    I mean, this is just such a poor argument that you must have nothing better to offer. You have built up a giant strawman and gone through quite a few steps to deconstruct it. Congratulations. People believe that others who act in a certain way should be locked up, for a whole slew of reasons, and they also aknowledge that morals are subjective.

    As we know, the number of people who hold a belief has no bearing on the truth of that belief. Societal consensus is therefore no justification for impeaching 'wrongdoers' under moral subjectivism because consensus does not equal truth.
    Another strawman coming up. How does believing morals are subjective automatically mean you believe societal consensus alone is justification for punishment? Guess what, whether something is "justified" or not is... wait for it... subjective!

    If subjectivism is true society ceases to be a moral authority over the individual transgressor. Instead, the many are simply imposing their will on the few; the rapist is morally no worse than the selfless charity worker (how can he be? moral disagreements are impossible!), he simply has the misfortune to be outnumbered by those who hold different beliefs.
    Again, there is nothing contrary with understanding that morality is subjective and having personal morals. They kind of go hand in hand actually. This is pretty simple. People generally want their individual moral opinions, on consequential matters especially, enforced by wider society and will do what they can to try and convince others to share their moral viewpoint, if they feel strongly enough about it.

    Subjectivism is clearly an untenable moral philosophy because it is inconsistent with the way we behave. Despite paying lip-service to it, I seriously doubt the atheists we see in EMM defending subjective moral values would be anything but moral realists if they found themselves in a moral dilemma.
    Another strawman. Subjectivism, the philosophical tenet, is quite different from saying that morals are subjective.

    "[...]people in different cultures arrive at different moral judgments, not because they have different views about the nature of morality, but because they have different views about the nature of reality.
    All disagreements could be said to be because of different views about the "nature of reality". They still have different views about the nature of morality.

    Consider the abortion controversy. Pro-life people believe that abortion is wrong while pro-choice people believe that it is right. Does this mean that they have different views about the nature of morality? No, because they both believe that murder is wrong.
    That's your presumption, but first of all, again, "murder" is, wait for it, a subjective concept! That is, what constitutes "wrongful killing" is subjective. One person's murder is another person's lawful killing. So pro-life people will disagree over what consists "murder" among themselves, as well pro-choice, much less against each other.

    What they disagree about is the nature of the fetus. Is the fetus the sort of thing that can be murdered? Their disagreement, then, is about the reality of the fetus, not about the morality of murder.
    No, you're simply putting words in other people's mouths. Many arguments that are pro-choice and pro-life argue about the morality of murder. Indeed, it's quite possible to be arguing about the "reality" of the fetus and the morality of murder at the same time.

    Since moral judgments follow from both a moral standard and certain factual beliefs, a difference in moral judgments does not necessarily imply a difference in moral standards."
    And yet, there are differences in moral standards anyways.

    This renders the usual arguments in favour of culturally specific moral values highly problematic; is the disagreement really a moral one? As Schick affirms, moral judgements arise from a factual understanding of the world as well as moral beliefs. Two different moral judgements on the same issue may therefore arise from different factual understandings of that issue rather than fundamentally different moral beliefs.
    Yes, they may only arise from different factual understandings, but many do not. Many have access to the same facts, and still come to different moral conclusions. I guess you could say that some moral decisions are quite uninformed with facts compared to others.

    Indeed, paradigmatic ethical statements like "justice should be upheld" and "bravery is commendable, cowardice is not" seem present throughout human history. Schick takes these to be "self evident" truths like the self evident truths in logic, however, this is where Schick and I will part company:
    Nothing "self-evident" about them at all, considering these are all quite subjective concepts. Saying "justice should be upheld" is like saying "what I think is just should be upheld". And what is brave and what is cowardice? Some would say charging up a hill to certain death head on is foolish rather than brave, and if you do it with the belief you'll be going to heaven, some would say it is actually cowardly.

    Theism provides firstly a metaphysical basis for these self-evident truths to exist (under naturalism there is none) and secondly a moral obligator in the person of God who sets us moral duties, and thus lends objective truth value to moral statements.
    Saying that obejective morals are "self-evident" has to be the most laughable, intellectually lazy argument I've ever heard. Theism provides an unproven unproveable claim. Theism also provides us with a multitude of "objective truths" (yes, with a plural) which makes a mockery of the whole concept and of theism. If you believe in supernatural unproveable beings that will punish you with eternal hellfire if you don't follow their "objective truths" and will reward you if you do just because you were raised that way, are you more likely to believe in objective truths? Yes, and that doesn't help your case at all.
    Last edited by Matthias; November 29, 2012 at 06:03 PM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Does an objective taste in pop music exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthias View Post
    Actually, rape is considered fine in many parts of the world depending on context, and used to be much more accepted, especially when women had far fewer rights and were viewed as second class humans by more of the world.
    You haven't offered anything near enough evidence for this assertion to hold. As you know I went on to say, moral judgements are formed based on moral beliefs and factual beliefs. You would have to provide detailed examples of rape being committed because of a lack of moral belief it was wrong, rather than contrary factual beliefs to ours. As I suspect, the latter is true, you even omit that women were viewed as 'second class' citizens in whatever period it is you are referring to. This constitutes a factual belief, rather than a moral one. So no, you certainly have not established that rape being morally wrong is a subjective truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthias View Post
    nobody is arguing that morality is the same in seriousness as fashion taste, just that they're both subjective.
    What do you mean by 'seriousness' here? You are in danger of evoking some objective standard of importance that clearly cannot exist if all non empirically quantifiable truths are subjective. Since such an objective standard cannot exist without objective truths (which you are ironically arguing against) your argument is self-refuting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthias View Post
    No, they aren't, because while morals are subjective, people feel much more strongly about them, to the point that they will lock up others for violating them in some cases.
    This is another concession in my favour; people do feel far more strongly about moral values than they do about aesthetic taste. So how does this support your argument? Do people arbitrarily feel strongly about moral values, or are moral values important because -in fact- the majority of people are moral realists? The latter is far more plausibly true, meaning our issue is whether or not the objective moral values we perceive are illusory. Just as we take the existence of the physical world as a self-evident fact (our senses cannot be externally verified) so too do we take the truth of our moral experience as a self-evident fact; we cannot 'leave' our moral intuition in the same way we cannot 'leave' our sensory reports. A basic belief in the validity of our own moral values is perfectly rational, and theism is the best justification for holding these values to be true.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthias View Post
    Yes, you can have disagreement over opinions that cannot be falsified. It happens every day.
    Right! They do happen every day, because firstly most people are moral realists (and so unlike moral subjectivists, are logically capable of disagreeing) and secondly because different people have different factual beliefs. Another concession in my favour.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthias View Post
    No, it's not, people have moral disagreements on just this. I mean, God killed a whole lot of babies in the Bible, tortured quite a few too, so even God is at disagreement with himself I suppose. This is a hilarious "slippery slope" argument.
    This is simply the fallacy of distraction; Whether or not God killed babies within the narrative of an ancient Hebrew text is irrelevant to my criticism of moral subjectivism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthias View Post
    Do you understand the meaning of words? Disagreement means lack of consensus. That's all. Nothing about it having to be falsifiable. If you have two people and they have different moral views, then there is a disagreement. Consensus can mean a lot of different things, from just a simple majority opinion to, well, anything I suppose a society deems it to be (used to be a majority of just men, for example). Yes, morals are subjective, yes, there is a "consensus" that is made among societies on what those morals are (and they change over time), and yes, people are then punished, sometimes quite harshly, based on this consensus.
    I fear the misunderstanding has been yours: indeed disagreement does mean lack of consensus, which is precisely the point. If subjective moral value exist, then everyone is morally infallible, meaning everyone is de facto within the moral consensus because a moral argument cannot take place between two morally infallible people, right? So disagreement is impossible. Lack of consensus is impossible. Given this, how do we justify the evident lack of moral consensus in society (rapists, murderers and thieves) if moral subjectivism is true and disagreement is impossible? As I said in my original opening statement, if moral subjectivism is true, then these rapists and murderers are victims of an oppressive society, and were simply unlucky enough to be in the ethical minority...

    ...Under moral subjectivism, moral values are not upheld because of their truth, but because might makes right. I am also reminded here of Mein Kampf, in which Hitler claimed only those who could fight deserved to survive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthias View Post
    I mean, this is just such a poor argument that you must have nothing better to offer. You have built up a giant strawman and gone through quite a few steps to deconstruct it. Congratulations. People believe that others who act in a certain way should be locked up, for a whole slew of reasons, and they also aknowledge that morals are subjective.
    This is not a refutation of my argument, but a repudiation. In return, please accept my repudiation of your repudiation

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthias View Post
    Yes, they may only arise from different factual understandings, but many do not. Many have access to the same facts, and still come to different moral conclusions. I guess you could say that some moral decisions are quite uninformed with facts compared to others.
    Please remember the terminology. We are not talking about what facts are available, but what factual beliefs the individual holds. Two people could have access to the same facts and hold different factual beliefs. The presence of different, empirically equivalent quantum interpretations is evidence of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthias View Post
    Nothing "self-evident" about them at all, considering these are all quite subjective concepts. Saying "justice should be upheld" is like saying "what I think is just should be upheld". And what is brave and what is cowardice? Some would say charging up a hill to certain death head on is foolish rather than brave, and if you do it with the belief you'll be going to heaven, some would say it is actually cowardly.
    The distinctions you draw here are factual rather than moral. Different societies may have different concepts of what is and is not just based on factual beliefs, but all societies uphold justice as fundamentally good. Whether or not charging up a hill is foolish (depending on factual circumstances) is irrelevant, it is brave nonetheless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthias View Post
    Saying that obejective morals are "self-evident" has to be the most laughable, intellectually lazy argument I've ever heard. Theism provides an unproven unproveable claim. Theism also provides us with a multitude of "objective truths" (yes, with a plural) which makes a mockery of the whole concept and of theism. If you believe in supernatural unproveable beings that will punish you with eternal hellfire if you don't follow their "objective truths" and will reward you if you do just because you were raised that way, are you more likely to believe in objective truths? Yes, and that doesn't help your case at all.
    There isn't anything I can really reply to here, you offer your opinion of my argument and your (highly prejudiced) opinion of my religious beliefs. It is a shame you felt it necessary to make this personal, hopefully you can learn from your mistake.

    Take care,

    Valden
    Last edited by Valden; November 30, 2012 at 12:27 PM.
    So spake the Fiend, and with necessity,
    The tyrant's plea, excused his devilish deeds.
    -Paradise Lost 4:393-394

  12. #12

    Default Re: Does an objective taste in pop music exist?

    I won't respond to most of your post because you are still arguing a strawman. You have given moral subjectivism a definition and meaning that isn't true, and you are arguing from that position. So before I can address your points, you have to have an understanding of what you are arguing against first. So I will try to inform you what moral subjectivism is. It seems you have been misled hook, line, and sinker by this Schick guy. Here's a piece that totally dismantles Schick and his strawman argument (which looks the same as yours, point for point).

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    In "Is Morality a Matter of Taste?" (Free Inquiry, Fall 1998), Theodore Schick, Jr. tears down a straw man he calls 'subjectivism'. He defines subjectivism as the view that "what makes an action right is that a person approves of it." But this is a form of relativism, not subjectivism. Subjectivism claims that there is no objective fact of the matter over whether a specific action is right or wrong; therefore it does not claim that anything makes an action right or wrong--including personal approval. For X to say "murder is wrong" means that X merely disapproves of committing murder. It doesn't mean that there is some transcendental cosmic standard of 'rightness' or 'wrongness' existing independently of human minds. If subjectivism is true, nothing (such as intent) inherently makes an action right or wrong, just as nothing (such as invoking pleasure) inherently makes a sound aesthetically good or bad. To say that a piece of music is beautiful or that an action is morally righteous is to invoke man-made distinctions between types of sounds or actions--actions (or sounds) individuals find pleasing versus those they find displeasing. But in nature there are just actions and sounds. Arguing for the existence of objective moral laws falsely invests an indifferent nature with meaning, in this case moral meaning, but meaning nonetheless. Isn't one of the prime lessons of naturalism that there is no inherent meaning in the universe, just the meaning we create? Isn't subjectivism then merely a simple acknowledgment that moral meaning is something human beings create and therefore is not an intrinsic feature of the universe?

    I'm wary of Schick's suggestion that moral truths are self-evident in the same sense that logical truths (such as A and not-A cannot both simultaneously be true) are. Since by definition one cannot appeal to evidence or arguments to defend or criticize such "truths", alleged moral truths are incapable of being refuted. In any system of thought, one has to make some basic assumptions and work out arguments based on those assumptions. But Ockham's razor compels us not to make any more unjustified assumptions than we have to in order to account for some feature of the world. Postulating the existence of objective moral laws is simply another case of multiplying entities beyond necessity.

    It takes quite a leap of faith to compare concepts so invested with this human notion of greater meaning as ethical and aesthetic principles with concepts such as laws of physics or fundamental logical rules which are neutral or indifferent to the human desire for meaning. Ethics and aesthetics deal with specifically human (or at least sentient) concerns and do not serve any function outside of them. Scientific laws and logical rules, on the other hand, also deal with processes that have nothing to do with human (or sentient) concerns, such as the nuclear processes occurring inside of stars or the relationships that hold between a system of defined symbols. To postulate objective moral standards would be as superfluous as postulating objective aesthetic standards. It is erroneous to elevate a human invention to the status of a law of nature.

    To say that music is good is simply to express an opinion. In fact, we could even consider that the vast majority of people may agree that there are certain basic acoustic features of music which makes it distinguishable from noise. Nevertheless, music is a human invention--the distinction between an annoying sound and a pleasant one does not exist in nature but only in our minds. I think it would be relatively uncontroversial to argue that the same holds for the distinction between a moral and an immoral action were it not for people's distaste with the perceived consequences of such a view. But, as in case that our minds cease to exist after brain death, disfavor with the perceived implications of such views does not in any way discredit their validity.

    In his concluding remarks, Schick challenges his readers to find a counterexample to the 'moral truth' that "unnecessary suffering is wrong." But the challenge is misguided because the lack of a counterexample does not establish the objectivity of moral values. Consider analogous challenges: Would a continuous tone be considered music by anyone, or would anyone consider a blank canvass to be a beautiful work of art? Using Schick's reasoning I could similarly argue that, unless you can find a counterexample where a blank canvass is a beautiful work of art, or a monotonous tone constitutes music, the burden of proof is upon you to show that there are no objective aesthetic values. Schick also argues that our moral progress is evidence for objective moral standards; but this simply begs the question. To assume that there has been, or could be, moral progress is simply to assume that such standards exist.

    The point is that just because there are criteria that all ethical systems will hold as basic assumptions--such as the immorality of producing unnecessary harm--this does not establish that these kinds of criteria, whether invoked by art critics or ethicists, are somehow inherent in nature, existing independently of human opinion. What we have in ethics (as in aesthetics) are basic criteria that we invent. In the absence of objective moral values we can have basic intersubjective moral standards--but intersubjective is still subjective. Instead of morality being based on a single individual's opinions it can be based on the common elements of several individuals' opinions--but opinions they still are. They are not moral 'laws' existing independently of human opinion inherently in nature--indeed, it would be quite odd to say that objective moral standards would exist if sentience never arose in the universe or all sentient beings were extinct.

    Subjectivism then, properly defined, does not fail to meet Schick's criteria for an adequate ethical theory. It doesn't sanction "immoral actions" because in a naturalistic universe there are just actions--'moral' and 'immoral' are man-made distinctions that do not exist in nature, but exist only in our minds. Whatever people consider moral or immoral is not sanctioned by subjectivism because this metaethical theory is a factual theory--a theory about what morality is--and thus does not itself make any value judgments whatsoever but is morally neutral about all actions. It doesn't imply that people are morally infallible because to do so would be to assume that there is some objective moral standard existing independently of human opinion by which people could measure whether an act is right or wrong--an assumption subjectivism obviously denies. In Schick's misleading definition of subjectivism that standard is the individual's own approval. But on a truly subjectivist account, there's no standard at all for 'what makes an action moral' just as there's no standard for 'what makes art beautiful'.

    In a sense, if moral subjectivism is true, one cannot err morally; but one cannot succeed morally either, because morality is akin to aesthetics. One can judge a work of art as poor but we do not say they 'erred' simply because we enjoy it. When we disagree about whether rock music is pleasing we do not say that, because this is a matter of taste, we are therefore all 'aesthetically infallible' or that the idea that whether something is aesthetically good or bad is a matter of taste does not constitute an 'adequate aesthetic theory'.

    Subjectivism also does not deny that there are substantial moral disputes. It simply acknowledges that morality is a human (or sentient) invention. Once an individual or community has accepted a general set of basic moral premises (e.g. murder is wrong), moral disputes can arise when applying those premises in real-life cases--such as when one has to choose between two children joined at the head at birth when only one could survive an operation. Moral disputes can arise even if the premises they arise from are invented; the premises of those disputes need not reside independently of us in some Platonic realm of ideas.


    So will you now aknowledge that moral subjectivism doesn't claim "might makes right" and doesn't say that people cannot disagree and that everyone is morally infallible?

    There isn't anything I can really reply to here, you offer your opinion of my argument and your (highly prejudiced) opinion of my religious beliefs. It is a shame you felt it necessary to make this personal, hopefully you can learn from your mistake.
    It was the impersonal "you", sorry you mistook it for a personal attack. You claim that theism validates objective morality as a concept, and I'm just pointing out theism itself is quite a silly thing to use to validate such a claim.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Does an objective taste in pop music exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by XIII View Post
    They are not intrinsically valuable, unlike say humans who we should treat as ends in themselves and not as the means to an end.
    Why? We're one of only a few relatively infinitely renewable resources we have at our disposal. What worth does someone I've never met have for me unless I can in some way benefit from their existence?

  14. #14
    Himster's Avatar Praeses
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Dublin, The Peoples Republic of Ireland
    Posts
    9,838

    Default Re: Does an objective taste in pop music exist?

    And by what right do you claim your standard to be the standard?
    .......and remember esoteric divine revelations is not an objective reason to make claims.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

  15. #15

    Default Re: Does an objective taste in pop music exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by irelandeb View Post
    Almost all of us come with hardware for enjoying music, just as we almost all come with a conscience. Over time pop music in particular has become more refined into a simple little-varying formula, just like our morality.

    So, do objective tastes in popular music exist?
    No. Our morality certainly isn't a "simple little-varying formula" anyways. The triumph of one idea or thought over others so that it gains near unanimous approval over time has nothing to do with it being an objective truth. Gravity didn't win over the opinions of 13 year old girls. It's a poor comparision in that way I suppose.

  16. #16
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    24,462

    Default Re: Does an objective taste in pop music exist?

    I really feel like comparing and contrasting this with the morality debate is a waste, it really is a very serious general enquiry to my mind, I've often felt like there is an abstract definable quantifiable qualitative concern to musical taste but never been adequately able to form my thoughts on it.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Does an objective taste in pop music exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Denny Crane! View Post
    I really feel like comparing and contrasting this with the morality debate is a waste, it really is a very serious general enquiry to my mind, I've often felt like there is an abstract definable quantifiable qualitative concern to musical taste but never been adequately able to form my thoughts on it.
    You can divide music into taste and skill. Say prefering piano or violin. That's taste. But a beginner on piano will sound better than a beginner on violin due to different skill levels for when it starts to sound good. Skill also involves harmonics, synergies and carrying of intent and emotions.

    Of course, even that is subjective, but that's the carrier for when music are really bad or when you can say: "good, but not my taste."

  18. #18

    Default Re: Does an objective taste in pop music exist?

    I think we mostly form our taste for music in our teenage years, when we both have the time and inclination to listen. Might have something to do with hormones imprinting the stuff into ROM.
    Eats, shoots, and leaves.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Does an objective taste in pop music exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Valden View Post
    "I fear the misunderstanding has been yours: indeed disagreement does mean lack of consensus, which is precisely the point.
    You specifically said disagreements must be on some falsifiable subject. That was your argument. But that's not the definition of "disagreement". Disagreements do not have to be on truth claims. As it is, moral claims are not "truth claims" because they are not verifiable, they cannot be refuted, and therefore they can never achieve the status of "truth".

    If subjective moral value exist, then everyone is morally infallible
    If there is no such thing as objective morals, then there is no such thing as moral infallibility. You can't be "right" when you can't be "wrong". It's soooo simple, I don't know what else to say to you. Moral infallibility can ONLY exist if there is objective morality, where there is indeed a "right" answer to every moral question.

    meaning everyone is de facto within the moral consensus because a moral argument cannot take place between two morally infallible people, right?
    Wrong, since your previous assumptions are wrong. Your argument relies on a strawman, which shows how incredibly weak it is.

    As I said in my original opening statement, if moral subjectivism is true, then these rapists and murderers are victims of an oppressive society, and were simply unlucky enough to be in the ethical minority...
    You really don't get it. Moral subjectivism doesn't make value judgements, it doesn't say a society is "oppressive" or "just" if the majority impose their ethical views. So why are you pushing this? You are pushing one definition of "subjectivism", not moral subjectivism.

    ...Under moral subjectivism, moral values are not upheld because of their truth, but because might makes right. I am also reminded here of Mein Kampf, in which Hitler claimed only those who could fight deserved to survive."
    This isn't the "consequence" of moral subjectivism, it's the way the world is. It's not like moral realism exists, then moral subjectivists break away forming a society where "might makes right". Moral subjectivism makes no value judgments on how the world works. It is simply describing the way the world is, not "causing" it, do you see?

    Clearly, from my argument above, subjectivism is inconsistent with the way humans make moral judgements, because we do so as moral realists.
    Humans generally make moral judgments that conform with the society they are in, for a lot of reasons that are beneficial to them (for moral realists, the "objective moralities" usually conveniently line up with what they've been raised on, what a coincedence!). They may try to change the moral consensus if they care enough or have the power to. This is consistent with there being no objective morality.

    My argument is that under subjectivism, ethical statements are no longer truth claims (they have no truth value, as you say) meaning they are instead beliefs. Disagreements arise from opposing truth claims, not opposing beliefs;
    Disagreement just means lack of consensensus or difference of opinon. And again, moral claims cannot be truth claims, because they are not verifiable.

    most people behave as moral realists and present their moral beliefs as truth claims, hence the disagreement.
    You have evidence of that? And it doesn't matter, because merely presenting moral beliefs as truth claims doesn't make them truth claims. If you present an opinion as a "truth" claim that cannot be proven or tested, then that makes no sense. It's silly.

    As I have been saying since the beginning of this discussion, subjectivism just isn't an accurate description of the way most people make moral decisions, and so is incompatible with reality.
    The way people make moral decisions is perfectly compatible with there being no objective morality.

    Copy and paste the counter argument you put and I will respond to it. Of course the source matters! It's the difference between an academic, jargonistic article and some popular level atheist rant. If you are making the claim my terminology is wrong, you need to provide an academic refutation.
    Your argument was from a secular humanist magazine from 1998, and appears quite dated

    Anyways, here is what he says subjectivism claims:

    "Subjectivism claims that what makes an action right is that a person approves of it or believes that it's right."

    Which means, according to this definition, subjectivism claims there CAN be right and wrong. Which is clearly NOT what I'm saying. Also, his definition is quite strange. Here is the wikipedia definition:

    "Subjectivism is the philosophical tenet that "our own mental activity is the only unquestionable fact of our experience"
    Nothing about "right" or "wrong" there, uh oh.

    In fact, google "subjectivism definition" and you'll get all types.

    Also, note how he doesn't call this "moral subjectivism"? That's KINDA important, since it's DIFFERENT and can also mean a lot of things.

    These labels are confusing though and have no consensus, which is why I'm arguing from my position, not from labels. I don't want to argue over definitions, I want to argue over whether objective morality exists or not. Me? I believe that moral decisions cannot be truth claims because they cannot be verified. Therefore, there is no "right" or "wrong" answer when it comes to morality. There is no verifiable objective morality.

    People who belive objectie morality exists on here has as of yet to provide me with a verifiable objective morality. Moral realists also hold different versions of "objective morality", both of which directly undercut their position. Moral realists make quite an incredible claim, that there is objective morality outside of our minds and that we have access to it and can know it. But they can't verify this. That's kinda a problem.

    You have accused me of having a 'strawman' argument and using false terminology without explaining yourself properly, those are quite serious accusations to be making, so to hear you say definitions are all subjective anyway makes me think you are some kind of troll
    A lot of definitions ARE quite subjective, sorry to burst your black and white worldview. Indeed, a big point of philosophy is in trying to provide a clear definition! There is subjectivism (with different types), moral subjecivism (same), simple subjectivism (again, more types), ethical subjectivism (more types!), and even among these individual philosophies there is disagreement on what they are, there is no one consensus in other words. Same with moral realism. There are quite a few types. You seem to be confusing relativism with subjectivism as it is.

    You took what I said I believe and then began arguing against a definition of "subjectivism" provided by some author, which is not what I believe. That is indeed a strawman.

    Mainly, I think the confusion arises from you not being able to read arguments carefully, of me or of the people you are putting out in support, and therefore are not addressing actual arguments.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Does an objective taste in pop music exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthias View Post
    You specifically said disagreements must be on some falsifiable subject. That was your argument. But that's not the definition of "disagreement". Disagreements do not have to be on truth claims. As it is, moral claims are not "truth claims" because they are not verifiable, they cannot be refuted, and therefore they can never achieve the status of "truth".
    A disagreement most certainly does have to be on a truth claim, I think Schick's sums it up well:

    "Suppose Jack says that homosexuality is right, and Jill says that it's wrong. You might think that Jack and Jill disagree with one another. But you would be mistaken. According to subjective relativism, Jack is saying that he believes that homosexuality is right while Jill is saying that she believes that homosexuality is wrong. But this doesn't constitute a disagreement because neither is denying what the other is saying. In order for Jill to disagree with Jack, she would have to say that Jack doesn't believe that homosexuality is right. But it's difficult to see how she could ever be in a position to make such a claim because, presumably, no one knows Jack's mind better than Jack."

    there is no 'lack of consensus' here, because as Schick points out, no one is actually denying any one else's position. How can I deny that you believe in something?

    To reiterate my position, moral subjectivism is incompatible with the way people actually make moral choices, most people will affirm the truth of their moral claims, and do so as moral realists. Moral subjectivism is incompatible with reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthias View Post
    If there is no such thing as objective morals, then there is no such thing as moral infallibility. You can't be "right" when you can't be "wrong". It's soooo simple, I don't know what else to say to you. Moral infallibility can ONLY exist if there is objective morality, where there is indeed a "right" answer to every moral question.
    If moral subjectivism is true, then the source of morality is human cognitive faculties. This means no one can be morally wrong because their morals stemmed from their cognitive faculties, just like everyone else's. Morality would be reduced to non-falsifiable beliefs that cannot be demonstrated to be false, the only criteria of validity being that the holder of those beliefs is human! It would be impossible to show a moral statement was 'wrong' for this reason. Infallible: unable to be wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthias View Post
    Humans generally make moral judgments that conform with the society they are in, for a lot of reasons that are beneficial to them (for moral realists, the "objective moralities" usually conveniently line up with what they've been raised on, what a coincedence!). They may try to change the moral consensus if they care enough or have the power to. This is consistent with there being no objective morality.
    As I have previously argued, you would be hard pressed to find a society where the moral treatment of equals was not broadly the same. What differs is the specific factual beliefs those societies hold:

    Moral value held + factual belief held = moral judgement

    People still thought it was wrong to enslave a human being in the 18th century, this moral value was unchanged, but what differed was their factual belief about what constituted a human being, black people were considered to be inferior. I could give hundreds of examples like this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthias View Post
    Disagreement just means lack of consensensus or difference of opinon. And again, moral claims cannot be truth claims, because they are not verifiable.
    If the statement 'only claims that can be empirically verified can have a truth value' is true, then it must be false because it itself is not empirically verifiable! Your position is self refuting, indeed 'verificationism' as has not been widely held for decades for precisely this reason.(*)

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthias View Post
    You have evidence of that? And it doesn't matter, because merely presenting moral beliefs as truth claims doesn't make them truth claims. If you present an opinion as a "truth" claim that cannot be proven or tested, then that makes no sense. It's silly.
    A truth claim is simply a claim that something is true, so yes I really can present anything as a truth claim. You are arguing through the false lens of verificationism (only things that can be empirically verified are true) which as I show above is a self-refuting position. Of course we can present valid reasons our moral beliefs are true, namely the evidence of our moral experiences, and remember, for every argument you present doubting the truth of our moral experiences, a parallel argument can be made doubting the truth of our sensory ones; to do so is self defeating.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthias View Post
    The way people make moral decisions is perfectly compatible with there being no objective morality.
    Yeah, moral realism could be the product of sociobiological conditioning, it is a logically valid argument but not one I accept. Moral subjectivism however is incompatible with moral realism, the former being the position you are defending and the latter being the position the majority of humans hold.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthias View Post
    Your argument was from a secular humanist magazine from 1998, and appears quite dated
    1998 is recent, compared to verificationism getting blown apart decades ago!

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthias View Post
    Anyways, here is what he says subjectivism claims:

    "Subjectivism claims that what makes an action right is that a person approves of it or believes that it's right."

    Which means, according to this definition, subjectivism claims there CAN be right and wrong. Which is clearly NOT what I'm saying.
    Erm, read into it a bit mate, he isn't saying that at all. If -as Schick says- someone approving of something makes it right, then two different people approving of two opposite moral values are both 'right' even though their views are opposite, there is therefore no objective standard. So actually Schick's definition is entirely consistent with yours.

    Another point, this quotation is literally the crux of that 'article' you provided, given that it can be so easily refuted do you see why I wasn't too impressed by it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthias View Post
    These labels are confusing though and have no consensus, which is why I'm arguing from my position, not from labels. I don't want to argue over definitions, I want to argue over whether objective morality exists or not. Me? I believe that moral decisions cannot be truth claims because they cannot be verified. Therefore, there is no "right" or "wrong" answer when it comes to morality. There is no verifiable objective morality.
    As I argued above(*), this is a demonstrably false position because it is self-refuting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthias View Post
    People who belive objectie morality exists on here has as of yet to provide me with a verifiable objective morality. Moral realists also hold different versions of "objective morality", both of which directly undercut their position. Moral realists make quite an incredible claim, that there is objective morality outside of our minds and that we have access to it and can know it. But they can't verify this. That's kinda a problem.
    Again, this argument is contingent on verificationism being true, as I showed above, the position is literally self refuting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthias View Post
    Mainly, I think the confusion arises from you not being able to read arguments carefully, of me or of the people you are putting out in support, and therefore are not addressing actual arguments.
    The irony...
    So spake the Fiend, and with necessity,
    The tyrant's plea, excused his devilish deeds.
    -Paradise Lost 4:393-394

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •