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Thread: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

  1. #101

    Default Re: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    It obvious that native Americans were prosecuted and that European immigrants murdered them, with guns and diseases!


    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-astrophic View Post
    I have to disagree here as the source itself is contradictory.

    Here is a definition of genocide:
    "the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation".
    http://oxforddictionaries.com/defini...glish/genocide

    Bolded by myself. If many north american indians died of diseases, as the source suggests, how could there have been a genocide? I don't think there was a systematic policy to contaminate indians with european diseases at the time.
    It don't want to be a troll regarding the US here, but you also have to stand to what happend in the US (if you are American). Standing up to historic facts and living by them is a sign of strength and confidence.

    The US has issuses that have to be dealt with. With Native Americans...

    So let's hear some American officials of the time on that matter...

    “A war of extermination will continue to be waged between the two races until the Indian race becomes extinct.”
    - California Governor Peter H. Burnett, January 1851

    http://obrag.org/?p=1412
    “We hope that the Government will render such aid as will enable the citizens of the north to carry on a war of extermination until the last redskin of these tribes has been killed. Extermination is no longer a question of time–the time has arrived, the work has commenced and let the first man who says treaty or peace be regarded as a traitor.”
    - Yreka Herald, 1853

    http://obrag.org/?p=1412
    August 7, 1853, Yreka Herald said:
    "Now that the general hostilities against the Indians have commenced we hope that the Government will render such aid as will enable the citizens of the north to carry on a war of extermination until the last Redskin of these tribes has been killed. Extermination is no longer a question of time " the time has arrived, the work has commenced, and let the first man that says treaty or peace be regarded as a traitor."

    In 1856, Thomas J. Henley, the superintendent of California Indian Affairs, claimed evidence of hundreds of Indians being stolen from their homes and sold into servitude. Militias at the forefront of the government sanctioned the murder of Indians in California. Typically attacking at night, the militias would murder men, women and children. William Kibbe, the leader of a volunteer company in the Humbolt area, claimed his men had killed over 200 Indians to open up land for immigration. - http://www.kumeyaay.com/kumeyaay-his...-genocide.html
    “The Indians of California make as obedient and humble slaves as the Negro in the south. For a mere trifle you can secure their services for life.”
    - Pierson Reading, another of Sutter’s managers

    http://obrag.org/?p=1412
    The local authorities not only ignored the genocide in their midst, they encouraged it.
    Rewards ranged from $5 for every severed head in Shasta City in 1855 to 25 cents for a scalp in Honey Lake in 1863. One resident of Shasta City wrote about how he remembers seeing men bringing mules to town, each laden with eight to twelve Indian heads. Other regions passed laws that called for collective punishment for the whole village for crimes committed by Indians, up to the destruction of the entire village and all of its inhabitants. These policies led to the destruction of as many as 150 Native communities.
    The state of California also got involved. The government paid about $1.1 Million in 1852 to militias to hunt down and kill indians. In 1857 the California legislature allocated another $410,000 for the same purposes.
    In 1856 the state of California paid 25 cents for each indian scalp. In 1860 the bounty was increased to $5.
    The most famous of these massacres was the Clear Lake Massacre of 1850, in which between 80 and 400 Pomo indians were slaughtered.

    http://obrag.org/?p=1412
    The Great California Genocide
    California Genocide A
    California Genocide B
    genocide california -> your search engine

  2. #102
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    Default Re: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    I feel like I've seen this post somewhere before. Perhaps multiple times...
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  3. #103

    Default Re: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    OH whatever... Be happy then!

    But hey? Is that actualy a real comment or input?

    Or are you only unhappy that Europeans murdered Native Americans?

    The Great California Genocide
    California Genocide A
    California Genocide B

    PS: I don't say all Americans are murderers - or that all Americans took part in the genocide of Native Americans.

    Pls keep that in mind.

  4. #104

    Default Re: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    Quote Originally Posted by Solemn Bystander (+) View Post
    OH whatever... Be happy then!

    But hey? Is that actualy a real comment or input?

    Or are you only unhappy that Europeans murdered Native Americans?
    Or maybe your autistic posting behaviour is making it really difficult and tiresome for people to try and have a discussion with you.

  5. #105

    Default Re: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    Or maybe your autistic posting behaviour is making it really difficult and tiresome for people to try and have a discussion with you.
    Perhaps reading the links I supplied, will make my "autistic posting behaviour" seem less troublesome to you.

    If I missed one of your arguments, or that of an other poster, please excuse me, and simply post the relevant issue once more - if you can please be so convenient. Thanks, athanaric.

    There's no need to be aggressive/personal on this matter.

    I assumed I was posting on the OP: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    All I said was:

    “A war of extermination will continue to be waged between the two races until the Indian race becomes extinct.”
    - California Governor Peter H. Burnett, January 1851

    http://obrag.org/?p=1412
    “We hope that the Government will render such aid as will enable the citizens of the north to carry on a war of extermination until the last redskin of these tribes has been killed. Extermination is no longer a question of time–the time has arrived, the work has commenced and let the first man who says treaty or peace be regarded as a traitor.”
    - Yreka Herald, 1853

    http://obrag.org/?p=1412
    August 7, 1853, Yreka Herald said:
    "Now that the general hostilities against the Indians have commenced we hope that the Government will render such aid as will enable the citizens of the north to carry on a war of extermination until the last Redskin of these tribes has been killed. Extermination is no longer a question of time " the time has arrived, the work has commenced, and let the first man that says treaty or peace be regarded as a traitor."

    In 1856, Thomas J. Henley, the superintendent of California Indian Affairs, claimed evidence of hundreds of Indians being stolen from their homes and sold into servitude. Militias at the forefront of the government sanctioned the murder of Indians in California. Typically attacking at night, the militias would murder men, women and children. William Kibbe, the leader of a volunteer company in the Humbolt area, claimed his men had killed over 200 Indians to open up land for immigration. - http://www.kumeyaay.com/kumeyaay-his...-genocide.html
    “The Indians of California make as obedient and humble slaves as the Negro in the south. For a mere trifle you can secure their services for life.”
    - Pierson Reading, another of Sutter’s managers

    http://obrag.org/?p=1412
    The local authorities not only ignored the genocide in their midst, they encouraged it.
    Rewards ranged from $5 for every severed head in Shasta City in 1855 to 25 cents for a scalp in Honey Lake in 1863. One resident of Shasta City wrote about how he remembers seeing men bringing mules to town, each laden with eight to twelve Indian heads. Other regions passed laws that called for collective punishment for the whole village for crimes committed by Indians, up to the destruction of the entire village and all of its inhabitants. These policies led to the destruction of as many as 150 Native communities.
    The state of California also got involved. The government paid about $1.1 Million in 1852 to militias to hunt down and kill indians. In 1857 the California legislature allocated another $410,000 for the same purposes.
    In 1856 the state of California paid 25 cents for each indian scalp. In 1860 the bounty was increased to $5.
    The most famous of these massacres was the Clear Lake Massacre of 1850, in which between 80 and 400 Pomo indians were slaughtered.

    http://obrag.org/?p=1412
    And then added these links:

    The Great California Genocide
    California Genocide A
    California Genocide B
    genocide california -> your search engine

  6. #106

    Default Re: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    See, this is just what I meant by autistic. You're posting the same links and quotes over and over again (which only serves to annoy people. The OP is always the most conspicuous part of a thread and there's no point in re-posting it) and you're completely ignoring any argument other people have produced. I refer you to this post of mine, which you chose not to address so far:
    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    Originally Posted by Solemn Bystander (+) I'm European - and we have disregared, enslaved, murdered and mocked people all over the globe during imperialism - not to mention the holocaust during the 2WW.

    Africa: we murdered if they didn't suit our causes or rebelled; we enslaved; we took their land (esp. in S-Africa); we exploited their resources; we behaved like herrenmenschen and were racists
    Asia: we murdered if they didn't suit our causes or rebelled; we took their land; we exploited their resources; we behaved like herrenmenschen and were racists

    To cut it short, we Europeans can be happy that people in Africa and Asia still like us at least a little.
    When did we do that? I must've missed out on the party. Call me next time you're going to exploit some foreign territories. I want me one or two slaves, too.



    And to be honest: most or even all former imperialstic nations in Europe don't even truely regret what we have done - Germany being an exception, as it had to regret und fully confront it's past, due to the 2WW and the mass-murdering of Jews, Sinti and Roma etc.
    And because we're (the "we" being entirely un-ironic this time) Germans, we have to preach other nations about it all the time?


    Why is it so difficult for some US/Americans to admit: that they did enslaved people and their constitution was written by slaveholders; that they killed/murdered Native Americans...
    Their constitution is still better than ours. Did you notice that equality movements gained a foothold not least because the constitution grants them equal rights? Where in the American constitution is it written, for example: "The Ni---- shall henceforth be a slave and not considered human"?

  7. #107
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    Default Re: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    Quote Originally Posted by Solemn Bystander (+) View Post
    It's a good thing to hear, that Canadians are aware of the destuction of Native American culture and people -- they did.
    It seems like Canada has a good/scientific sence for it's past.
    If you had read Chukada1's post, you would know that he claims the exact opposite, that Canadians are not only unaware of Native American history, but to contrast themselves with the Americans, even say that their treatment of the Native Americans was comparatively enlightened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Solemn Bystander (+) View Post
    It obvious that native Americans were prosecuted and that European immigrants murdered them, with guns and diseases!
    Europeans did murder Native Americans. But guess what? Native Americans also murdered Europeans. Native Americans even murdered other Native Americans, just as Europeans murdered other Europeans. Did you know that the war between the Iroquois League and the Erie tribe resulted in the near-complete decimation of the latter as a people?
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  8. #108
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    Default Re: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    Quote Originally Posted by Solemn Bystander (+) View Post
    Did any Native American / First Born people want Europeans to come along and bring their bodily diseases (which killed many thousands, and all in all millions) and mental maladies (which corrupt so many) to them?
    I doubt the Europeans knew they would be bringing diseases along.
    Did Native American / First Born want you guys to come here, were you invited?
    Does it matter? Blame Europeans for sending their convicts over here.
    How did you act and how were Native Americans / First Borns treated? Were they given rights as Europeans, or were they pushed away as non-equal humans?
    They were pushed away as savages.
    Where the first "US"-Americans that wrote the US-constitution racists, that owned slaves?!! And did they regard Native Americans as equals??
    It does not mention Native Americans in the Constitution. Also you know why we owned slaves? Because our mother countries had slavery. Again, that is the fault of the Europeans.
    Did they own slaves?? Were Native Americans given any rights at that time?
    Sure they could if they had the money and property. Not everyone owned slaves. Only the most wealthy of citizens were able to own slaves.
    It's a historic disgrace for European invaders to believe they are better than people that live in places they invaded.
    So bad that it was perpetrated by every country with an empire. Belgium, British Empire (which you are a part of), France, Japan, Spain and the US.



  9. #109
    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    Quote Originally Posted by Solemn Bystander (+) View Post
    Are you a sarcastic by nature, and don't you care for history!?


    Did any Native American / First Born people want Europeans to come along and bring their bodily diseases (which killed many thousands, and all in all millions) and mental maladies (which corrupt so many) to them?
    So now we need their permission to travel? I guess we ought to bow down before the wisdom of the elder shamans.

    Dear Hiawatha,
    Salutations my friend. I By the Grace of God, Queen of England, France and Ireland, Defender of the Faith, etc. Elizabeth Tudor was wondering if you'd be okay if I sent a few of my subjects into your lands? Just thought I should ask first.

    Hugs and Kisses,

    Bess

    P.S. I'm single. Please send a portrait with your response.



    Did Native American / First Born want you guys to come here, were you invited?
    They didn't know we existed, nor we they. They showed us hospitality at first, I guess in relative terms that's like knocking on the door and being let in.

    How did you act and how were Native Americans / First Borns treated? Were they given rights as Europeans, or were they pushed away as non-equal humans?
    Well given that my examples I gave make a point that there was an effort to make sure that Indians were convicted by their peer Indians within the framework of English law. Which I believe implies that yes, they were treated as equals from the get go by English colonists. Non Protestant Christian Indians were naturally discriminated against by the colonists. But they still had legal rights and protections.

    Where the first "US"-Americans that wrote the US-constitution racists, that owned slaves?!! And did they regard Native Americans as equals??

    Did they own slaves?? Were Native Americans given any rights at that time?
    You do realize that the Indians owned slaves right? Lots of them. And so did Blacks for that matter. In Louisiana there were more black slave owners up until the civil war than white proportionately given the size free black and free white populations.

    It's a historic disgrace for European invaders to believe they are better than people that live in places they invaded.
    Its a historic disgrace for Europeans to believe that Indians are better than the people who lived in the places they invaded.

    ? No?... Well... Native Americans must have been really bad to have brought such a bad faith upon them...
    Fate. Not faith. They were fairly bad.

    It's worse than the Jewish faith! Jews have at least a country to exil to, if all goes wrong!... but native Americans - killed in the millionns - where to go to?!... Who even regards your faith as true... Who cares for Native Americans?...
    Indian reserves are damn near autonomous regions. Native Americans are American citizens. How shocking.

    The ONE state that goes forth telling others.... that apostulates freedom and minorities rights (the USA)...
    I believe the term is evangelize. Apostolate is a noun not a verb.

    Does it care? Do their highschool-whatever graduates care? Has the USA ever said anything...

    Oh Crap!!
    Yeah, we hooked the Indians up fat with all sorts of welfare. If you're okay with not being wealthy you can not work for a living as a red man.

    them native Americans!... You shouldn't be around here or seeing these threads! If all wen't well, you should be dead or silent right now!!

    Be dead First Born Americans!
    I am Native American. I was born here. That's the only sort of Native American I acknowledge outside of a historic context. They're Indians (not to be confused with Hindustanis). I'm European. We're both Native American.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chukada1 View Post
    The residential schools is not a funny joke.
    Yes mandatory boarding schools are terrible.

    It took children away from their families and tried to coerce them into becoming new Christians and new Canadians, through intimidation and brutality as well as punishing anyone who exhibited their culture heritage. Many aboriginal women were abused and raped and the mortality rate was extremely high, the parents also never really heard about what happened to their kids. Whats worse is that this was a Canadian government run institution that contracted out the work to private churches. The last school closed in something like, 1996. This system was put into place in the 19th century. That is pretty much 200 years of taking children from their families and brutalizing them, and it was mandatory.
    Schools are mandatory in the US for everyone. You're expected to be taught the English language and American history. In essence schools coerce you into being American. There's no shortage of criminals in the world. Individual or even pervasive criminal activity is not a condemnation of the institution. The Catholic Church didn't rape children or cover it up. People did.

    Was it a good program? No. Not really. I'm not sure we ought to condemn Canada as a people for it.

    Aboriginal people are already more prone to alcoholism and drug abuse. This system of denying children their heritage right, taking them from their family, and putting them into a program with inadequate facilities or teachers, care givers, and providing poor education and forced labour, neglect, as well as horrific health conditions, is a cause for that problem in Aboriginal society. Its not the only reason, but to consider it the victims fault is absurd.
    So to reiterate they got crappy boarding schools?

    I don't know what its like for aboriginals in the United States, but Canada has treated aboriginal people like second class humans since the 19th century. People here are totally ignorant of that past, and think that Canadians and Aboriginals had a peaceful co-existence and that Canadians protected the aboriginal people, unlike the Americans. When in reality, Canada attempted cultural genocide, it lasted 200 years and did not work. The Canadian government has a lot to apologize for, as it was supposed to supervise this system, but they honestly didn't care about second class humans.
    There's no such thing as a cultural genocide. It's either a genocide or not. A genocide is killing a group of people. Not killing a people's group.

    Quote Originally Posted by Solemn Bystander (+) View Post
    I can only join in here and say, that some of my relatives went to America/Canada and most likely killed native Americans direclty - ie. murdered them - or killed them by infecting them.
    Yes, let the collective white guilt out.

    It's a good thing to hear, that Canadians are aware of the destuction of Native American culture and people -- they did.
    He said Canadians don't know about it.

    It seems like Canada has a good/scientific sence for it's past.
    Do you not have a spell checker?

    None of that will help Native Americans, but perhaps US-American will some time be able and self-confident... and in that regard
    -> to admit their (mass)-murders of Native Americans.
    What is a mass murder? A skirmish? A battle? A war? We had all of those things.

    What you can't seem to understand, is that the Indians provoked a great deal of them. Starting a fight and losing it doesn't make you a victim. For some reason, you seem to suggest when ethnic Europeans kill each other it's okay, but when we attack other people it isn't kosher.

    You also completely ignore the reality that Indians killed Indians.

    But wait... nope... they = the are US-Americans -> they are the best -> they don't do wrong -> history is wrong if it says US-Americans were ever murders of natives or slave-holders!
    Your entire exposition is a straw man.
    Last edited by Col. Tartleton; December 13, 2012 at 01:14 PM.
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  10. #110

    Default Re: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    I don't think you read my post.

    "reported to the department that between 1894 and 1908, mortality rates at residential schools in Western Canada ranged from 30% to 60% over five years (that is, five years after entry, 30% to 60% of students had died, or 6–12% per annum). These statistics did not become public until 1922"

    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Tartleton View Post


    Yes mandatory boarding schools are terrible.

    Schools are mandatory in the US for everyone. You're expected to be taught the English language and American history. In essence schools coerce you into being American. There's no shortage of criminals in the world. Individual or even pervasive criminal activity is not a condemnation of the institution. The Catholic Church didn't rape children or cover it up. People did.

    Was it a good program? No. Not really. I'm not sure we ought to condemn Canada as a people for it.

    But the two bolded points I want to comment on. In these residential schools education was ignored, what funds the schools had were used for the teachers to have some reading material. Many children did physical forced labour to help pay for the school, that was their education.

    The system was a government one, it was supposed to have oversight or supervision, but nobody who knew about it (government) was stopping these people in the residential schools from abusing children. The parents of the dead children weren't even told how their child died. Nobody cared about these second class human beings.

    To "reiterate". Not only were children punished for exercising any of their culture, or even language, they did not receive education, forced into slave labour, abused, malnurished, intentionally killed, and this happened for 2 centuries, all under the legislation and oversight of the Canadian government. It is hard to pretend that this had no effect on the current population of aboriginals today. The assumption that any societal or economic problems they have is their own fault only, or that the tribulations they went through Anglo-Franco Canadians also went through, is downright stupid.

    I can't speak for what happened to Aboriginals in the United States, but the Canadian government hurt those societies very much and is solely responsible for the damage done by its mandatory residential schools program. An issue largely invisible in Canadian society, or one where people blame the victims.

    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Tartleton View Post
    So to reiterate they got crappy boarding schools?
    Yeah. 30%-60% of students dying in a school in a five year period (that is students enrolled for five years) is a really bad school, I mean we've all been to bad schools. I think the death rate in my school over the course of 18 years was 0.009%. Granted that is 100 years later, but I think we probably can't assume that the average death rate was 30%-60% for most schools in Canada in the 20th century.
    Last edited by Chukada1; December 13, 2012 at 11:15 PM.

  11. #111
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    Default Re: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    So Canada is worse than America on civil rights.

    Suck it Canada!
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  12. #112
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    Default Re: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    Quote Originally Posted by Chukada1 View Post
    I can't speak for what happened to Aboriginals in the United States, but the Canadian government hurt those societies very much and is solely responsible for the damage done by its mandatory residential schools program. An issue largely invisible in Canadian society, or one where people blame the victims.
    Yeah. I was shocked to learn about the history of native Canadians. It is almost a total flip on what is believed with respect to the native Americans where people believe there was some kind of holocaust. Where even something like Wounded Knee is seen as this great massacre, but the disinformation overlooks the simple fact that it wasn't, despite the Indian Wars being full of massacres on both sides.

    Of course the American Indian got a bad deal. There was clear and systematic human rights abuses to the extreme, perpetrated by the US government. But the vast majority of this occurs after the system of massacre and counter massacre is established. And after almost 225 years of trying to get along with the natives.

    I just finished a 15 hour documentary on the Indian Wars. Really eye-opening stuff that totally challenges the common beliefs about how the fate of the American Indian came to be. It was just one mind-boggling misunderstanding after another, on both sides. You almost laugh at points because it seems it was just destined that we couldn't get along, even though we absolutely should have been able to. For the most part people wanted to.
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  13. #113
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    Default Re: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    Quote Originally Posted by mrmouth View Post
    Yeah. I was shocked to learn about the history of native Canadians. It is almost a total flip on what is believed with respect to the native Americans where people believe there was some kind of holocaust. Where even something like Wounded Knee is seen as this great massacre, but the disinformation overlooks the simple fact that it wasn't, despite the Indian Wars being full of massacres on both sides.

    Of course the American Indian got a bad deal. There was clear and systematic human rights abuses to the extreme, perpetrated by the US government. But the vast majority of this occurs after the system of massacre and counter massacre is established. And after almost 225 years of trying to get along with the natives.

    I just finished a 15 hour documentary on the Indian Wars. Really eye-opening stuff that totally challenges the common beliefs about how the fate of the American Indian came to be. It was just one mind-boggling misunderstanding after another, on both sides. You almost laugh at points because it seems it was just destined that we couldn't get along, even though we absolutely should have been able to. For the most part people wanted to.
    Which documentary?



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    Default Re: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    vae victus

  15. #115
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    Default Re: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    Quote Originally Posted by Enemy of the State View Post
    I don't see this as a black and white issue. North America was sparsely populated when the Europeans arrived. Much of the land claimed by native tribes was really in a state of nature. The Europeans arrived to homestead unused land, which they were perfectly in their rights to do, and were attacked by hostile natives who saw it as theirs. Of course, in many instances European colonists took lands actually used and commited aggression themselves. Native Americans are not only large, collective entity. There have been hundreds of tribes, some of which were victims of European aggression, while others were themselves the aggressors, and murdered innocents.

    That said, only individuals can be held responsible for actions. Nobody alive today is responsible for what happened centuries ago.´
    Oh god. And who says European norms of property rights had to be applied to Americas? Dont come up to this with that kind of arguments, seriously.
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  16. #116
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    Default Re: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    You also completely ignore the reality that Indians killed Indians.
    That's because the person who started this thread is more interested in reposting the same cherry-picked quotes over and over and out of context. He/she could care less about what you have to contribute to his thread. He strikes me as an Internet troll, not someone who came here to have an honest discussion or learn about American history. He also doesn't quite grasp the difference between a systematic government-directed genocide and the casualties of war between English colonists and later US citizens who fought Indian tribes often while in alliance and in conjunction with rival Indian tribes. I've yet to see the person who wrote the OP also demand that the Iroquois tribes pay reparations to the Erie people, who were viciously massacred by them and whose descendants can only be counted amongst some of the Seneca people.

    His conversations with Athanaric are amusing, since both are German, yet seeing the differences between their posts is like observing night versus day. When the person who wrote the OP mentioned the Holocaust of Jews in WWII it was most telling about the real intentions of why he came here.

    He basically picked a topic he probably found online the same day and said "ooh! This looks fun. Don't know much about it but time to start trolling anyway!"

  17. #117

    Default Re: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    Oh god. And who says European norms of property rights had to be applied to Americas? Dont come up to this with that kind of arguments, seriously.
    They may not have cordoned off land for individuals, but they did for their tribes, not unlike the ancient Celts and Scythians.

    A perfect example is when one tribe would hunt or graze too far onto an area claimed by a rival tribe. This was an instant declaration of war. War for them meant the extermination of one or the other. The Comanches in particular were the most ruthless, whom had probably destroyed or wiped out dozens of nations by the bow or by forced assimilation through gang raping.
    Last edited by Admiral Piett; January 29, 2013 at 06:04 AM.
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  18. #118

    Default Re: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    Quote Originally Posted by Enemy of the State View Post
    Much of the land claimed by native tribes was really in a state of nature.
    Why don't property rights exist if someone claims natural land and does nothing with it?
    Last edited by removeduser_4536284751384; January 29, 2013 at 02:06 PM.

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    irontaino's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    I think more recent history deserves the attention. The American and Canadian boarding school systems were where the worst loss of culture happened.
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    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    That's because the person who started this thread is more interested in reposting the same cherry-picked quotes over and over and out of context. He/she could care less about what you have to contribute to his thread. He strikes me as an Internet troll, not someone who came here to have an honest discussion or learn about American history. He also doesn't quite grasp the difference between a systematic government-directed genocide and the casualties of war between English colonists and later US citizens who fought Indian tribes often while in alliance and in conjunction with rival Indian tribes. I've yet to see the person who wrote the OP also demand that the Iroquois tribes pay reparations to the Erie people, who were viciously massacred by them and whose descendants can only be counted amongst some of the Seneca people.
    Indeed. He also seems unconcerned about the countless white on white violence that fills European history. There were only 2 million Indians north of Mexico and they didn't all die and the depopulation was mostly from illnesses. There were easily 3 times that many people killed in the Napoleonic Wars in a single generation, in Europe. What about that bad fate? The Napoleonic Wars were pretty bad, but civilized. Before the 18th century it's practically nonstop genocide and democide.

    In the scheme of things if human life is human life the "Bad Fate of Native Americans in Northern America" was pretty much a minor pandemic of smallpox and measles to a number of nomadic and semi nomadic groups inhabiting a large wilderness followed by some minor skirmishes which compounded the problems. In comparison the Spanish Flu may have killed 50 million people within 3 years. Hell, that's worse than WW2.

    Hell, I'm more concerned about the mass murder of Buffalo to be honest. I've still never seen or eaten the native livestock... I've met Indians and partial Indians before. They taste just like white people.

    His conversations with Athanaric are amusing, since both are German, yet seeing the differences between their posts is like observing night versus day. When the person who wrote the OP mentioned the Holocaust of Jews in WWII it was most telling about the real intentions of why he came here.
    Honestly it's just bad communications. I think Athanaric had a point on the Autistic posting style.

    He basically picked a topic he probably found online the same day and said "ooh! This looks fun. Don't know much about it but time to start trolling anyway!"
    I guess it's possible. But if I assume every off base person on the internet is a troll there's no point in having a discussion of anything at all. Obviously everyone not trolling agrees with me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Future Filmmaker View Post
    They may not have cordoned off land for individuals, but they did for their tribes, not unlike the ancient Celts and Scythians.
    More like the Germans I think based on what you say in the next part. The Celts seem to have been fairly organized, just decentralized (unless you mean earlier on). One could, I think, argue Gaul was full of numerous city-states. For example the Roman province Novempopulania was a collection of 9 (12 with later borders) tribes each having a small city/town as a hub and a number of smaller settlements. Most of the cities in France were Celtic cities, then Roman cities, then Germanic (French) cities. They raided each other for stuff, but so did the Greek and Italian cities. That was just one small fraction of Gaul. The Iranic peoples certainly qualify though.

    A perfect example is when one tribe would hunt or graze too far onto an area claimed by a rival tribe. This was an instant declaration of war. War for them meant the extermination of one or the other. The Comanches in particular were the most ruthless, whom had probably destroyed or wiped out dozens of nations by the bow or by forced assimilation through gang raping.
    Indeed. That sounds more like Germans with their demilitarized zones between their tribal nations. Guests and travelers got every luxury, but intruders were liable to find themselves dismembered and heaped in the woods.

    Quote Originally Posted by irontaino View Post
    I think more recent history deserves the attention. The American and Canadian boarding school systems were where the worst loss of culture happened.
    They didn't lose culture though. They gained a new one.

    I like to think US American is a culture even if we're as quick to exploit it as anyone else's. We have our share of fairly good poets, musicians, writers, painters, sculptors, choreographers, dancers, philosophers, legends, and myths, traditions and folklore.
    Last edited by Col. Tartleton; February 07, 2013 at 12:34 AM.
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