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Thread: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

  1. #1

    Default The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    Native Americans suffered heavily from the European/American invasion, and not only due to diseases.

    Many were killed and murdered by European/Americans who took their ground.

    http://www.pbs.org/indiancountry/history/calif.html

    California Genocide

    Genocide is a strong word denoting a planned extermination of a racial, political or cultural group. It should not be used lightly. But what happened to the indigenous tribes of California qualifies as genocide, and that history is explored in A Seat at the Drum.

    For thousands of years, the southern and central Pacific coast region was one of the most densely populated areas north of Mexico. Population estimates range as high as 300,000 American Indians speaking 80 distinct languages. Because of the bounty of the sea, the pastures and hills, the Indians didn't have to farm to survive. They fished, hunted and gathered an enormous variety of wild food. Acorns ground up and cooked into a soup, mush or bread was the staple for many groups.
    In California, the genocide of Native tribes was done in the name of the church.

    At that time, the Chumash tribe was the largest group with around 20,000 members. Despite the diversity of tribes in the region, archeological evidence doesn't indicate a lot of inter-tribal warfare.
    Then in 1769, a Franciscan missionary named Father Junipero Serra led a Spanish army up from Mexico and reached present-day San Diego. It was he who built the first of 21 missions that would extend up north to San Francisco. When he encountered the Chumash, Fr. Serra failed to recognize a centuries-old religious tradition. "Believe me," he wrote, "when I saw their general behavior, their pleasing ways and engaging manners, my heart was broken to think that they were still deprived of the light of the Holy Gospel." He promptly set out to convert all the Indians he encountered to Christianity.

    He also set out to make the native populations slaves to the farms supporting the missions. Spanish soldiers kidnapped Indians by the thousands. They were given Spanish names, dressed in blue uniforms and became farm workers — something they had never done. They also were forced to care for livestock, tanned hides, and produced candles, bricks, tiles, shoes, saddles, soap and other necessities.
    If they misbehaved, they were whipped, branded, mutilated or even executed. Hundreds and thousands of Indians — both in the missions and in surrounding areas — died of malaria, smallpox or other new diseases imported by the Spanish for which there was no native immunity.

    Beginning in 1775, many of the mission Indians began to revolt. Some 800 Ipai and Tipai Indians burned down the San Diego mission that year. The revolt was brutally put down by the Spanish soldiers, as were all of the revolts.

    The years of warfare and mistreatment took their toll. At the Santa Barbara mission alone, more than 4,600 Chumash names fill the burial registry. Indians were put in mass graves near the church, and were denied either traditional or Christian burials.

    See how the California tribes were decimated on our Interactive Map.

    After 65 years, the mission period ended in 1834 after Mexico won its independence from Spain and secularized the missions. Only then were the mission Indians free to leave, but by then they had no villages to return to.

    In 1848, the United States acquired California from Mexico just in time for the Gold Rush of 1849. Now, the mountain tribes encountered European miners who saw Indian women as concubines and Indian men as slaves or even as shooting targets for sport. The newspapers of the time were filled with headlines about Indians being killed:
    "Good Haul of Diggers" [a slang term for Indian slave laborers in the gold fields]

    "Thirty-eight Bucks Killed"

    "Forty Squaws and Children Taken"

    "Indiscriminate Massacre of Indians — Women and Children Butchered"
    This last headline told of 188 peaceful Indian men, women and children killed in Humboldt Bay. The story was just a little too sympathetic to the Indians, so the editor was run out of town.
    From a high population of 300,000 before contact, Indians in California reached a low of 16,000 in 1900. According to Alvin M. Josephy in his book 500 Nations, the history of the California tribes "was as close to genocide as any tribal people had faced, or would face, on the North American continent."

  2. #2
    mrmouth's Avatar flaxen haired argonaut
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    Default Re: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    Yes.

  3. #3

    Default Re: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    Thanks for the reply here, mrmouth!

  4. #4

    Default Re: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    Native Americans suffered heavily from the European/American invasion, and not only due to diseases.

    Many were killed and murdered by European/Americans who took their ground.

    Quote:
    http://www.pbs.org/indiancountry/history/calif.html

    California Genocide

    Genocide is a strong word denoting a planned extermination of a racial, political or cultural group. It should not be used lightly. But what happened to the indigenous tribes of California qualifies as genocide, and that history is explored in A Seat at the Drum.

    For thousands of years, the southern and central Pacific coast region was one of the most densely populated areas north of Mexico. Population estimates range as high as 300,000 American Indians speaking 80 distinct languages. Because of the bounty of the sea, the pastures and hills, the Indians didn't have to farm to survive. They fished, hunted and gathered an enormous variety of wild food. Acorns ground up and cooked into a soup, mush or bread was the staple for many groups.
    In California, the genocide of Native tribes was done in the name of the church.

    At that time, the Chumash tribe was the largest group with around 20,000 members. Despite the diversity of tribes in the region, archeological evidence doesn't indicate a lot of inter-tribal warfare.
    Then in 1769, a Franciscan missionary named Father Junipero Serra led a Spanish army up from Mexico and reached present-day San Diego. It was he who built the first of 21 missions that would extend up north to San Francisco. When he encountered the Chumash, Fr. Serra failed to recognize a centuries-old religious tradition. "Believe me," he wrote, "when I saw their general behavior, their pleasing ways and engaging manners, my heart was broken to think that they were still deprived of the light of the Holy Gospel." He promptly set out to convert all the Indians he encountered to Christianity.

    He also set out to make the native populations slaves to the farms supporting the missions. Spanish soldiers kidnapped Indians by the thousands. They were given Spanish names, dressed in blue uniforms and became farm workers — something they had never done. They also were forced to care for livestock, tanned hides, and produced candles, bricks, tiles, shoes, saddles, soap and other necessities.

    If they misbehaved, they were whipped, branded, mutilated or even executed. Hundreds and thousands of Indians — both in the missions and in surrounding areas — died of malaria, smallpox or other new diseases imported by the Spanish for which there was no native immunity.
    I have to disagree here as the source itself is contradictory.

    Here is a definition of genocide:
    "the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation".
    http://oxforddictionaries.com/defini...glish/genocide

    Bolded by myself. If many north american indians died of diseases, as the source suggests, how could there have been a genocide? I don't think there was a systematic policy to contaminate indians with european diseases at the time.

  5. #5
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-astrophic View Post
    Bolded by myself. If many north american indians died of diseases, as the source suggests, how could there have been a genocide? I don't think there was a systematic policy to contaminate indians with european diseases at the time.
    Now you start speaking like how Turkish government explain Armenia "genocide".
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  6. #6

    Default Re: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    This is one of the historical wrongs that won't be righted. But beyond the romanticism, I don't think most of the world cares.

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  7. #7

    Default Re: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    Quote Originally Posted by Cat-astrophic View Post
    I have to disagree here as the source itself is contradictory.

    Here is a definition of genocide:
    "the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation".
    http://oxforddictionaries.com/defini...glish/genocide

    Bolded by myself. If many north american indians died of diseases, as the source suggests, how could there have been a genocide? I don't think there was a systematic policy to contaminate indians with european diseases at the time.
    It don't want to be a troll regarding the US here, but you also have to stand to what happend in the US (if you are American). Standing up to historic facts and living by them is a sign of strength and confidence.

    The US has issuses that have to be dealt with. With Native Americans...

    So let's hear some American officials of the time on that matter...

    “A war of extermination will continue to be waged between the two races until the Indian race becomes extinct.”
    - California Governor Peter H. Burnett, January 1851

    http://obrag.org/?p=1412
    “We hope that the Government will render such aid as will enable the citizens of the north to carry on a war of extermination until the last redskin of these tribes has been killed. Extermination is no longer a question of time–the time has arrived, the work has commenced and let the first man who says treaty or peace be regarded as a traitor.”
    - Yreka Herald, 1853

    http://obrag.org/?p=1412
    August 7, 1853, Yreka Herald said:
    "Now that the general hostilities against the Indians have commenced we hope that the Government will render such aid as will enable the citizens of the north to carry on a war of extermination until the last Redskin of these tribes has been killed. Extermination is no longer a question of time " the time has arrived, the work has commenced, and let the first man that says treaty or peace be regarded as a traitor."

    In 1856, Thomas J. Henley, the superintendent of California Indian Affairs, claimed evidence of hundreds of Indians being stolen from their homes and sold into servitude. Militias at the forefront of the government sanctioned the murder of Indians in California. Typically attacking at night, the militias would murder men, women and children. William Kibbe, the leader of a volunteer company in the Humbolt area, claimed his men had killed over 200 Indians to open up land for immigration. - http://www.kumeyaay.com/kumeyaay-his...-genocide.html
    “The Indians of California make as obedient and humble slaves as the Negro in the south. For a mere trifle you can secure their services for life.”
    - Pierson Reading, another of Sutter’s managers

    http://obrag.org/?p=1412
    The local authorities not only ignored the genocide in their midst, they encouraged it.
    Rewards ranged from $5 for every severed head in Shasta City in 1855 to 25 cents for a scalp in Honey Lake in 1863. One resident of Shasta City wrote about how he remembers seeing men bringing mules to town, each laden with eight to twelve Indian heads. Other regions passed laws that called for collective punishment for the whole village for crimes committed by Indians, up to the destruction of the entire village and all of its inhabitants. These policies led to the destruction of as many as 150 Native communities.
    The state of California also got involved. The government paid about $1.1 Million in 1852 to militias to hunt down and kill indians. In 1857 the California legislature allocated another $410,000 for the same purposes.
    In 1856 the state of California paid 25 cents for each indian scalp. In 1860 the bounty was increased to $5.
    The most famous of these massacres was the Clear Lake Massacre of 1850, in which between 80 and 400 Pomo indians were slaughtered.

    http://obrag.org/?p=1412
    The Great California Genocide
    California Genocide A
    California Genocide B
    genocide california -> your search engine

  8. #8

    Default Re: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    Quote Originally Posted by Solemn Bystander (+) View Post
    The US has issuses that have to be dealt with. With Native Americans...
    What are you suggesting?
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  9. #9

    Default Re: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    Lol the Navajo's can shove it. They were killing mexicans like it was going out of style and had permanently enslaved the Pimas until the US showed up, but you won't read about that in your school books.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navajo_Wars#Mexican_period

    PS, your sources are ridiculous. Did you read the article on "THE WAR ON PUBIC HAIR MUST END"? The California Genocide code gave me some serious laughs; all that propaganda without even a single source being mentioned.
    That is the flaw in your theory, gentlemen and I will not help you out of it. If you choose to deal with men by means of compulsion, do so. But you will discover that you need the voluntary co-operation of your victims, in many more ways than you can see at present. And your victims should discover that it is their own volition - which you cannot force - that makes you possible. I choose to be consistent and I will obey you in the manner you demand. Whatever you wish me to do, I will do it at the point of a gun. If you sentence me to jail, you will have to send armed men to carry me there - I will not volunteer to move. If you fine me, you will have to seize my property to collect the fine - I will not volunteer to pay it. If you believe that you have the right to force me - use your guns openly. I will not help you to disguise the nature of your action. -Hank Rearden

  10. #10
    Menelik_I's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    What are you suggesting?
    A two-state Solution

    @OP:

    There are 3 things that bug me with the genocide claims :

    1- Blaming the Europeans for diseases is crackpot, nobody ask Crimea for reparations for bringing the plague to Europe.

    2- Displacing people in reservations was wrong but not genocide, furthermore the Indians had an habit of getting involved in American wars.

    3- The discussions always miss the Demographic fact that the European population was growing faster than Indian population, besides the fact that a part of the Indian population was assimilated. Genocide or not America was never going to be an Ameridien country.
    « Le courage est toujours quelque chose de saint, un jugement divin entre deux idées. Défendre notre cause de plus en plus vigoureusement est conforme ŕ la nature humaine. Notre supręme raison d’ętre est donc de lutter ; on ne possčde vraiment que ce qu’on acquiert en combattant. »Ernst Jünger
    La Guerre notre Mčre (Der Kampf als inneres Erlebnis), 1922, trad. Jean Dahel, éditions Albin Michel, 1934

  11. #11

    Default Re: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    What are you suggesting?
    That's something Native Americans and Americans should elaborate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whukid View Post
    Lol the Navajo's can shove it. They were killing mexicans like it was going out of style and had permanently enslaved the Pimas until the US showed up, but you won't read about that in your school books.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navajo_Wars#Mexican_period

    PS, your sources are ridiculous. Did you read the article on "THE WAR ON PUBIC HAIR MUST END"? The California Genocide code gave me some serious laughs; all that propaganda without even a single source being mentioned.
    Well, if that's your personal opinion that's fine with me. But why are you so aggresive-defensive then?

    Here is the Governour of California, speaking in 1851 - a valid fact:

    “A war of extermination will continue to be waged between the two races until the Indian race becomes extinct.”
    - California Governor Peter H. Burnett, January 1851

    http://obrag.org/?p=1412
    Burnett was also an open advocate of exterminating local California Indian tribes, a policy that continued with successive state governmental administrations for several decades, where the state offered US$25 to US$50 for evidence of dead Natives.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_H...t#Governorship
    Quote Originally Posted by Menelik_I View Post
    A two-state Solution

    @OP:

    There are 3 things that bug me with the genocide claims :

    1- Blaming the Europeans for diseases is crackpot, nobody ask Crimea for reparations for bringing the plague to Europe.

    2- Displacing people in reservations was wrong but not genocide, furthermore the Indians had an habit of getting involved in American wars.

    3- The discussions always miss the Demographic fact that the European population was growing faster than Indian population, besides the fact that a part of the Indian population was assimilated. Genocide or not America was never going to be an Ameridien country.
    There are 3 thing that bug me about your post:

    1- I didn't blame Europeans for diseases. I mentionted that as a sidenote, as it's simply a valid fact.

    2- Let me again quote an American Governour:
    “A war of extermination will continue to be waged between the two races until the Indian race becomes extinct.”
    - California Governor Peter H. Burnett, January 1851

    http://obrag.org/?p=1412
    3- Look, I don't live in America, and it's not my bad history here. Also it's nice of you to confirm that genocide happend: "Genocide or not..."

    ======
    ======

    PS: It's a shame that some Americans can't stand up to the negtive parts of their history.

    Perhaps they are so very insecure, they simply can't stand up to what they (the US) did wrong...

    It really is a shame!
    Last edited by Solemn Bystander (+); November 29, 2012 at 02:26 AM.

  12. #12
    Menelik_I's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    Quote Originally Posted by Solemn Bystander (+) View Post
    There are 3 thing that bug me about your post:

    1- I didn't blame Europeans for diseases. I mentionted that as a sidenote, as it's simply a valid fact.
    A completely irrelevant fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by Solemn Bystander (+) View Post
    2- Let me again quote an American Governour
    Fixed.

    You seems to not comprehend the whole concept of genocide, hint : it is about what you do, not say.

    I will repeat myself : Indians involved themselves in American wars, so they were repeatedly displaced because they were viewed as a 5th column and at times behaved like one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Solemn Bystander (+) View Post
    3- Look, I don't live in America, and it's not my bad history here. Also it's nice of you to confirm that genocide happend: "Genocide or not..."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solemn Bystander (+) View Post
    PS: It's a shame that some Americans can't stand up to the negtive parts of their history.

    Perhaps they are so very insecure, they simply can't stand up to what they (the US) did wrong...

    It really is a shame!
    What is shameful is that people continue to bang on the issue to this day, bottom line the USA is over that phase of history and now everyone has the same rights and stuff. Eat brownies and think of something else.
    Last edited by DimeBagHo; November 29, 2012 at 06:17 PM. Reason: off topic
    « Le courage est toujours quelque chose de saint, un jugement divin entre deux idées. Défendre notre cause de plus en plus vigoureusement est conforme ŕ la nature humaine. Notre supręme raison d’ętre est donc de lutter ; on ne possčde vraiment que ce qu’on acquiert en combattant. »Ernst Jünger
    La Guerre notre Mčre (Der Kampf als inneres Erlebnis), 1922, trad. Jean Dahel, éditions Albin Michel, 1934

  13. #13

    Default Re: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    Quote Originally Posted by Menelik_I View Post
    A completely irrelevant fact.
    What the hell, you brought that issue to the table, dude. I only gave you a fact-check.

    Quote Originally Posted by Menelik_I View Post
    Fixed.
    Hah, hah, hah... how cute. Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by Menelik_I View Post
    You seems to not comprehend the whole concept of genocide, hint : it is about what you do, not say.

    I will repeat myself : Indians involved themselves in American wars, so they were repeatedly displaced because they were viewed as a 5th column and at times behaved like one.
    Look, I never said that Americans commited genocide on Native Americans in California. I did though quote American sources. Please read my OP:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Native Americans suffered heavily from the European/American invasion, and not only due to diseases.

    Many were killed and murdered by European/Americans who took their ground.

    http://www.pbs.org/indiancountry/history/calif.html

    California Genocide

    Genocide is a strong word denoting a planned extermination of a racial, political or cultural group. It should not be used lightly. But what happened to the indigenous tribes of California qualifies as genocide, and that history is explored in A Seat at the Drum.

    For thousands of years, the southern and central Pacific coast region was one of the most densely populated areas north of Mexico. Population estimates range as high as 300,000 American Indians speaking 80 distinct languages. Because of the bounty of the sea, the pastures and hills, the Indians didn't have to farm to survive. They fished, hunted and gathered an enormous variety of wild food. Acorns ground up and cooked into a soup, mush or bread was the staple for many groups.
    In California, the genocide of Native tribes was done in the name of the church.

    At that time, the Chumash tribe was the largest group with around 20,000 members. Despite the diversity of tribes in the region, archeological evidence doesn't indicate a lot of inter-tribal warfare.
    Then in 1769, a Franciscan missionary named Father Junipero Serra led a Spanish army up from Mexico and reached present-day San Diego. It was he who built the first of 21 missions that would extend up north to San Francisco. When he encountered the Chumash, Fr. Serra failed to recognize a centuries-old religious tradition. "Believe me," he wrote, "when I saw their general behavior, their pleasing ways and engaging manners, my heart was broken to think that they were still deprived of the light of the Holy Gospel." He promptly set out to convert all the Indians he encountered to Christianity.

    He also set out to make the native populations slaves to the farms supporting the missions. Spanish soldiers kidnapped Indians by the thousands. They were given Spanish names, dressed in blue uniforms and became farm workers — something they had never done. They also were forced to care for livestock, tanned hides, and produced candles, bricks, tiles, shoes, saddles, soap and other necessities.
    If they misbehaved, they were whipped, branded, mutilated or even executed. Hundreds and thousands of Indians — both in the missions and in surrounding areas — died of malaria, smallpox or other new diseases imported by the Spanish for which there was no native immunity.

    Beginning in 1775, many of the mission Indians began to revolt. Some 800 Ipai and Tipai Indians burned down the San Diego mission that year. The revolt was brutally put down by the Spanish soldiers, as were all of the revolts.

    The years of warfare and mistreatment took their toll. At the Santa Barbara mission alone, more than 4,600 Chumash names fill the burial registry. Indians were put in mass graves near the church, and were denied either traditional or Christian burials.

    See how the California tribes were decimated on our Interactive Map.

    After 65 years, the mission period ended in 1834 after Mexico won its independence from Spain and secularized the missions. Only then were the mission Indians free to leave, but by then they had no villages to return to.

    In 1848, the United States acquired California from Mexico just in time for the Gold Rush of 1849. Now, the mountain tribes encountered European miners who saw Indian women as concubines and Indian men as slaves or even as shooting targets for sport. The newspapers of the time were filled with headlines about Indians being killed:
    "Good Haul of Diggers" [a slang term for Indian slave laborers in the gold fields]

    "Thirty-eight Bucks Killed"

    "Forty Squaws and Children Taken"

    "Indiscriminate Massacre of Indians — Women and Children Butchered"
    This last headline told of 188 peaceful Indian men, women and children killed in Humboldt Bay. The story was just a little too sympathetic to the Indians, so the editor was run out of town.
    From a high population of 300,000 before contact, Indians in California reached a low of 16,000 in 1900. According to Alvin M. Josephy in his book 500 Nations, the history of the California tribes "was as close to genocide as any tribal people had faced, or would face, on the North American continent."
    ...and my following posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Menelik_I View Post
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    My Girlfriend: You called me fat ?
    Again... This is really cute flattery, but I'm not bi-sexual. So please don't continue to try to hit on me anymore. I'm not your kind of guy, and I'm in a steady relationship. But thanks.


    Quote Originally Posted by Menelik_I View Post
    What is shameful is that people continue to bang on the issue to this day, bottom line the USA is over that phase of history and now everyone has the same rights and stuff. Eat brownies and think of something else.
    Thanks for confirming my facts, by being distracting.
    Last edited by DimeBagHo; November 29, 2012 at 06:19 PM. Reason: Insulting others.

  14. #14

    Default Re: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    I apologize if I came off as a douche, I'm kind've sick of this Native American bull being shoved down my throat. It's as if the world forgot that the Europeans started it and the red man took it out on us. The very creation of the American military wasn't to fight off redcoats, it was to stop the indian raids (US National Guard, 1647). Eventually, we got sick of their and waged all out war. The red man lost and now we're here, where the Native American tribes mooch off the Feds and don't contribute anything to society besides their flatbread. It's pretty sad that the only way a Native American tribe can succeed in the US is if they aren't recognized by the Department of Injun affairs as a legitimate tribe.
    That is the flaw in your theory, gentlemen and I will not help you out of it. If you choose to deal with men by means of compulsion, do so. But you will discover that you need the voluntary co-operation of your victims, in many more ways than you can see at present. And your victims should discover that it is their own volition - which you cannot force - that makes you possible. I choose to be consistent and I will obey you in the manner you demand. Whatever you wish me to do, I will do it at the point of a gun. If you sentence me to jail, you will have to send armed men to carry me there - I will not volunteer to move. If you fine me, you will have to seize my property to collect the fine - I will not volunteer to pay it. If you believe that you have the right to force me - use your guns openly. I will not help you to disguise the nature of your action. -Hank Rearden

  15. #15
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    Default Re: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    ^Oh poor privilged white man so burdened with the sad stories of brownies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Whukid View Post
    Lol the Navajo's can shove it. They were killing mexicans like it was going out of style and had permanently enslaved the Pimas until the US showed up, but you won't read about that in your school books.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navajo_Wars#Mexican_period

    PS, your sources are ridiculous. Did you read the article on "THE WAR ON PUBIC HAIR MUST END"? The California Genocide code gave me some serious laughs; all that propaganda without even a single source being mentioned.
    Where in your source is it stating any of that?
    Quote Originally Posted by snuggans View Post
    we can safely say that a % of those 130 were Houthi/Iranian militants that needed to be stopped unfortunately

  16. #16

    Default Re: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    http://books.google.com/books?id=Z8e...page&q&f=false Page 192. This is the book the wiki article was quoting.
    Last edited by Whukid; November 29, 2012 at 03:59 AM.
    That is the flaw in your theory, gentlemen and I will not help you out of it. If you choose to deal with men by means of compulsion, do so. But you will discover that you need the voluntary co-operation of your victims, in many more ways than you can see at present. And your victims should discover that it is their own volition - which you cannot force - that makes you possible. I choose to be consistent and I will obey you in the manner you demand. Whatever you wish me to do, I will do it at the point of a gun. If you sentence me to jail, you will have to send armed men to carry me there - I will not volunteer to move. If you fine me, you will have to seize my property to collect the fine - I will not volunteer to pay it. If you believe that you have the right to force me - use your guns openly. I will not help you to disguise the nature of your action. -Hank Rearden

  17. #17
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    Default Re: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    Well Im sorry. Im not going to read a book. In the wiki articale it says no such thing though. Only that they revenged a new-mexican expedition where 30 of theirs got killed, and then freed many of theirs held as slaves by New-Mexico.

    Is this part of your bizarro world. Like when you make other political and economics posts?
    Quote Originally Posted by snuggans View Post
    we can safely say that a % of those 130 were Houthi/Iranian militants that needed to be stopped unfortunately

  18. #18

    Default Re: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    Quote Originally Posted by Whukid View Post
    I apologize if I came off as a douche, I'm kind've sick of this Native American bull being shoved down my throat. It's as if the world forgot that the Europeans started it and the red man took it out on us. The very creation of the American military wasn't to fight off redcoats, it was to stop the indian raids (US National Guard, 1647). Eventually, we got sick of their and waged all out war. The red man lost and now we're here, where the Native American tribes mooch off the Feds and don't contribute anything to society besides their flatbread. It's pretty sad that the only way a Native American tribe can succeed in the US is if they aren't recognized by the Department of Injun affairs as a legitimate tribe.
    Hi, Whukid!

    I'm European - and we have disregared, enslaved, murdered and mocked people all over the globe during imperialism - not to mention the holocaust during the 2WW.

    Africa: we murdered if they didn't suit our causes or rebelled; we enslaved; we took their land (esp. in S-Africa); we exploited their resources; we behaved like herrenmenschen and were racists
    Asia: we murdered if they didn't suit our causes or rebelled; we took their land; we exploited their resources; we behaved like herrenmenschen and were racists

    To cut it short, we Europeans can be happy that people in Africa and Asia still like us at least a little.

    And to be honest: most or even all former imperialstic nations in Europe don't even truely regret what we have done - Germany being an exception, as it had to regret und fully confront it's past, due to the 2WW and the mass-murdering of Jews, Sinti and Roma etc.


    But you saying: "The red man lost and now we're here, where the Native American tribes mooch off the Feds and don't contribute anything to society besides their flatbread. It's pretty sad that the only way a Native American tribe can succeed in the US is if they aren't recognized by the Department of Injun affairs as a legitimate tribe." (Your words) Is a shame.

    Your defensive-agressive tone shows that America/US has it's racist past. And you yourself seem non-biast, judging you by what you just said.

    Trying to frame Native Americans as the culprits/aggressors is really totally ridiculous.

    Why is it so difficult for some US/Americans to admit: that they did enslaved people and their constitution was written by slaveholders; that they killed/murdered Native Americans...

    Why?? Check the facts.

  19. #19

    Default Re: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    I don't see this as a black and white issue. North America was sparsely populated when the Europeans arrived. Much of the land claimed by native tribes was really in a state of nature. The Europeans arrived to homestead unused land, which they were perfectly in their rights to do, and were attacked by hostile natives who saw it as theirs. Of course, in many instances European colonists took lands actually used and commited aggression themselves. Native Americans are not only large, collective entity. There have been hundreds of tribes, some of which were victims of European aggression, while others were themselves the aggressors, and murdered innocents.

    That said, only individuals can be held responsible for actions. Nobody alive today is responsible for what happened centuries ago.´

  20. #20

    Default Re: The bad fate of Native Americans in Northern America

    Quote Originally Posted by Enemy of the State View Post
    I don't see this as a black and white issue. North America was sparsely populated when the Europeans arrived. Much of the land claimed by native tribes was really in a state of nature. The Europeans arrived to homestead unused land, which they were perfectly in their rights to do, and were attacked by hostile natives who saw it as theirs. Of course, in many instances European colonists took lands actually used and commited aggression themselves. Native Americans are not only large, collective entity. There have been hundreds of tribes, some of which were victims of European aggression, while others were themselves the aggressors, and murdered innocents.

    That said, only individuals can be held responsible for actions. Nobody alive today is responsible for what happened centuries ago.´
    Do it really have to repost this over and over again?:

    ...

    “A war of extermination will continue to be waged between the two races until the Indian race becomes extinct.”
    - California Governor Peter H. Burnett, January 1851

    http://obrag.org/?p=1412
    “We hope that the Government will render such aid as will enable the citizens of the north to carry on a war of extermination until the last redskin of these tribes has been killed. Extermination is no longer a question of time–the time has arrived, the work has commenced and let the first man who says treaty or peace be regarded as a traitor.”
    - Yreka Herald, 1853

    http://obrag.org/?p=1412
    August 7, 1853, Yreka Herald said:
    "Now that the general hostilities against the Indians have commenced we hope that the Government will render such aid as will enable the citizens of the north to carry on a war of extermination until the last Redskin of these tribes has been killed. Extermination is no longer a question of time " the time has arrived, the work has commenced, and let the first man that says treaty or peace be regarded as a traitor."

    In 1856, Thomas J. Henley, the superintendent of California Indian Affairs, claimed evidence of hundreds of Indians being stolen from their homes and sold into servitude. Militias at the forefront of the government sanctioned the murder of Indians in California. Typically attacking at night, the militias would murder men, women and children. William Kibbe, the leader of a volunteer company in the Humbolt area, claimed his men had killed over 200 Indians to open up land for immigration. - http://www.kumeyaay.com/kumeyaay-his...-genocide.html
    “The Indians of California make as obedient and humble slaves as the Negro in the south. For a mere trifle you can secure their services for life.”
    - Pierson Reading, another of Sutter’s managers

    http://obrag.org/?p=1412
    The local authorities not only ignored the genocide in their midst, they encouraged it.
    Rewards ranged from $5 for every severed head in Shasta City in 1855 to 25 cents for a scalp in Honey Lake in 1863. One resident of Shasta City wrote about how he remembers seeing men bringing mules to town, each laden with eight to twelve Indian heads. Other regions passed laws that called for collective punishment for the whole village for crimes committed by Indians, up to the destruction of the entire village and all of its inhabitants. These policies led to the destruction of as many as 150 Native communities.
    The state of California also got involved. The government paid about $1.1 Million in 1852 to militias to hunt down and kill indians. In 1857 the California legislature allocated another $410,000 for the same purposes.
    In 1856 the state of California paid 25 cents for each indian scalp. In 1860 the bounty was increased to $5.
    The most famous of these massacres was the Clear Lake Massacre of 1850, in which between 80 and 400 Pomo indians were slaughtered.

    http://obrag.org/?p=1412
    The Great California Genocide
    California Genocide A
    California Genocide B
    genocide california -> your search engine


    Look guys, I'm not saying the US/America is the evil of the world. That would simply be total BS. All I'm saying is, that the US also has it's negative and bad history.

    Is that seen as blasphemy? All (or at least most) countries in the world, have also (but not only) a negative and bad history.

    I don't mind if 1000+ folks disregard my facts put out here, or dodge and retaliate with other issuses. That doesn't bother me.

    But there's no way I'll 'polish' history to suit the opinion of a 1000+ people. If some US/Americans want a clean sheet no matter what the facts are, well...


    PS: I'm getting the impression, that US/Americans are very thin-skinned regarding their history. Perhaps as they have unsolved issues to review and work off with eg. Native Americans?

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